Log inRegister an accountBrowse CSDbHelp & documentationFacts & StatisticsThe forumsAvailable RSS-feeds on CSDbSupport CSDb Commodore 64 Scene Database
You are not logged in - nap
CSDb User Forums


Forums > CSDb Entries > Event id #2655 : 8K Intro Competition 2017
2017-12-08 16:41
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1359
Event id #2655 : 8K Intro Competition 2017

Inspired in part by Didi's past intro creation competitions (many thankings for those!),
have a four week lightning competition to help you survive the holiday season

- single file one part intro (fade in/out acceptable)
- has a logo+changing text+music
- file size of at most 8192 bytes, including load address (so, 8190 bytes of data).
- no more than 5 seconds decrunch/precalculation time.
- once page is running, exits within 5 seconds of pressing space (should be obviously fading out)
- don't trash any RAM from $2800 to $cfff inclusive (unless you restore it on exit).

- entries uploaded to csdb as runnable .prg, optionally embedded in .d64,
- max three per participant, withdrawals allowed, older entries will be displaced if you've too many.
- competition start: 8th December
- entry deadline: 5th of January, 14:00 (2pm) UTC
- voting deadline: 12th of January, 14:00 (2pm) UTC
- entries will be ranked by CSDb rating, including private votes.
- entries with the same weighted average will be ranked by their percentages of 10s, 9s, etc.

No prizes, just fame :)


Thankings to Jeanette, Krill, Groepaz, and various ICC2016 commenters for helping me to crystallise plans.
Any errors in judgement all my own - I've ignored a lot of good advice :D


Questions and discussion below.
 
... 71 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....
 
2017-12-09 12:52
Trasher

Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 8
Hi,

great idea! Let's see if I manage to participate..

Being an old cracker I don't quite understand the idea of the rules though. The limit of 8k makes sense to some degree, but not the really the rest (like the $d000 limit). Here's my point of view of different crack intros, some different types and ways of using them:

1. packed game, crunched intro+game
- game is packed (RLE packed) and placed behind the unpacked intro. Packed game must fit after the unpacked intro, eg. from $2800-$ffff. The intro runs and when done (space) most often relocates the packed game to $0801 and launches the unpacker.
- the whole blob, unpacked intro+packed game, is crunched.
- The resulting file must fit between $0801-$d000 to be able to be loaded by a standard kernal loader (201 blocks).

2. packed and crunched game, completely unpacked intro (since it is so small)
- in this case we don't care about packing the intro at all, it is just so small that it doesn't make a difference.
- the end result of unpacked intro+packed and crunched game must fit $0801-$d000 same as in #1


I guess there are variants of the above, that even I have used when required.. Feel free to add and comment.

IMHO the most simple rule is that when the intro exits, a certain area after has to be just as it was before the intro started. Say the area $2800-$ffff (I think most of my entries had about that size, maybe up-to $3000 sometimes). That would allow for relocating stuff if somebody for whatever reason wants a bitmap at $4000. Maybe the start of that untouchable region should be increased to allow for some more fancy stuff, that's a matter of discussion.

To have the crunched size as a limit doesn't make much sense to me.. Though that could be listed/seen as part of the compo - shorter crunched intro is definately better if you wanna get high up in the gamers guide charts! ;) so I would give such an intro higher points.

Just a quick point of view from a cracker.. There are probably others.

Cheers,
Trasher
2017-12-09 13:19
Dwangi

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 129
Hi.

Hmm should he intro be in one 8k block while running?
Like the old rules on 16k block, but now 8k???
2017-12-09 13:49
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1359
Groepaz: as I mentioned in my initial post - I ignored a lot of good advice :-)

Trasher: thank you so much for the history lesson! I was somewhat surprised at the implication of Hein's post, it was starting to sound like the game was often doublecrunched. The historical separation of packing from crunching is something I still find somewhat bemusing.

I guess I was assuming something closer to scenario #2. The rules envision the area from 0x2800 to 0xcfff containing a packed+crunched game.

The intent of the "don't trash" rule is indeed that a certain area has to be just as it was before the intro started; I've just gone for $2800-$cfff to allow people the option of decrunching graphics or speedcode into the $d000-$ffff area.

The crunched size limit was just to ensure it would fits as a prefix for any file under (a fairly arbitrary) 42KB, and still be loadable with kernal load.
2017-12-09 13:58
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1359
Quote: Hi.

Hmm should he intro be in one 8k block while running?
Like the old rules on 16k block, but now 8k???


The new rules allow you to also allow unrestricted use of $0000-$0800 and $d000-$ffff.

The only runtime restriction is that if you use any of $2800-$cfff you must restore it at exit.

For example, if you want to use all of the area from $0000 to $3fff, while the intro is running, you could copy the ram from $2800 to $3fff to the area from $e000-$f7ff, and copy it back on exit.
2017-12-09 14:33
Trasher

Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 8
ChristopherJam: In the case of #2, I think of intros that are a 2-3 blocks long.. or say 10 blocks max.. Including scrolltext. Just as a reference to your crunched 32+ blocks.

The separation of packing/crunching is still valid unless you can separately crunch both intro and game, without the decrunch of the intro destroying the game. I guess this is what you somehow discuss.. Obviously back then it was also a matter of runtime, crunching might take 12-15 hours.

But hey - it's your compo and idea, so do it as you like! I just feel it's not crack-intro style - at all.. And maybe that's not the point.
2017-12-09 14:55
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1359
Quoting Trasher
ChristopherJam: In the case of #2, I think of intros that are a 2-3 blocks long.. or say 10 blocks max.. Including scrolltext. Just as a reference to your crunched 32+ blocks.

Interesting. I was going for something a bit tighter than last year's 64 blocks, but thought that four weeks might be a bit short a time period to be asking for 16 blocks or smaller.

Quote:
The separation of packing/crunching is still valid unless you can separately crunch both intro and game, without the decrunch of the intro destroying the game. I guess this is what you somehow discuss.. Obviously back then it was also a matter of runtime, crunching might take 12-15 hours.

Ah yes - I was thinking the decrunch time between intro and game might be a factor, but I hadn't considered the logistics of running two seperate crunches overnight, one for the intro the other for the game. Challenging times back then!

The idea behind this competition is indeed to decrunch the intro in such a way as to leave the game undisturbed. Perhaps it would help to imagine that the game has decrunched to $2800-$cfff, but has yet to be unpacked...

Quote:
But hey - it's your compo and idea, so do it as you like! I just feel it's not crack-intro style - at all.. And maybe that's not the point.

Again, I genuinely appreciate the historical context. While I'll keep the rules for this weird hybrid as they stand, it's definitely something to be kept in mind for a future event.
2017-12-09 15:36
Trasher

Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 8
All good CJ! Would be interesting to hear other crackers comments to this.
2017-12-09 15:43
Cruzer

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048
These rules are a nightmare. Probably not gonna compete.
2017-12-09 16:07
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1359
Cruzer, I'm curious - would you have been interested if the rules were a straight "don't use any RAM above $2800 aside from interrupt vectors and colour RAM"?
2017-12-09 23:27
Tim
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467
hmm,

imho just define max size of code AND sid.

for example not every coder will have access to a musician that can do wonders in tiny memory size due to not having a capable player made for this task. (and I say that with the utmost respect to hero's like GRG or Jeff that do this beautifully)
Previous - 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 - Next
RefreshSubscribe to this thread:

You need to be logged in to post in the forum.

Search the forum:
Search   for   in  
All times are CET.
Search CSDb
Advanced
Users Online
csabanw
E$G/hOKUtO fOrcE
Niki/ECS
Guests online: 330
Top Demos
1 Next Level  (9.8)
2 Mojo  (9.7)
3 Coma Light 13  (9.7)
4 Edge of Disgrace  (9.6)
5 No Bounds  (9.6)
6 Comaland 100%  (9.6)
7 Uncensored  (9.6)
8 The Ghost  (9.6)
9 Wonderland XIV  (9.6)
10 Bromance  (9.6)
Top onefile Demos
1 Party Elk 2  (9.7)
2 Cubic Dream  (9.6)
3 Copper Booze  (9.5)
4 Rainbow Connection  (9.5)
5 TRSAC, Gabber & Pebe..  (9.5)
6 Onscreen 5k  (9.5)
7 Dawnfall V1.1  (9.5)
8 Quadrants  (9.5)
9 Daah, Those Acid Pil..  (9.5)
10 Birth of a Flower  (9.5)
Top Groups
1 Booze Design  (9.3)
2 Nostalgia  (9.3)
3 Oxyron  (9.3)
4 Censor Design  (9.3)
5 Crest  (9.3)
Top NTSC-Fixers
1 Pudwerx  (10)
2 Booze  (9.7)
3 Stormbringer  (9.7)
4 Fungus  (9.6)
5 Grim Reaper  (9.3)

Home - Disclaimer
Copyright © No Name 2001-2024
Page generated in: 0.044 sec.