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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 237 |
how to draw C64 on a pc?
On lemon recently a few of us have been advising someone who wanted to try c64 art on how to go about doing it on a PC.
this lead me to thinking that I too wanted to know this info last year so why not do a thread on it which hopefully many current c64 artists will contribute to and then maybe we will have a very useful "kickstart" to anyone interested in starting or returning to c64 graphics.
there is one oldschooler who shall remain nameless atm who i spent some of yesterday trying to coerce back into the saddle :)
so i'll kick it off, theres are bound to be additional steps i have forgotten but here goes: |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 237 |
standard multicolour (koala)
application(s):
Photoshop c2 and above AND Project One
method:
replace the default photoshop swatches with the c64 palette of your choice (usually pepto but not by me :) ) see link at the bottom for palettes.
create a new document in rgb at 160x200 resolution at 72dpi
set the pixel aspect ratio to 2:1 and presto! you are now drawing in c64 MC res. but with layers.
turn off any auto antialiasing you can see on the top menu bar.
using the PENCIL tools you can now draw pretty much what you want.
stay away from BRUSHES as these will automatically try to feather edges.
you can however get the airbrush to work after a fashion in "splatter" mode pretty much
how the one in Blazing Paddles works.
setting the grid to 8x8 will help you to keep track of the MC attribute limitations as will
installing and periodically running the script in the link at the bottom of the post.
to create a c64 image from your photoshop document:
flatten the image and convert to indexed colour using the same palette as you drew the image with
(it also helps alot if u use a palette that Project One has as standard
(see link again for an ammended project one .ini with additional palettes)
use the IMAGE>IMAGE SIZE option in PS to scale your image back up to 320x200 REMEMBERING to set the "bicubic" scale option at the bottom of the screen to me "nearest neighbour" instead
save off your indexed colour image ( i use 16 colour GIF as it preserves palette order etc)
but BMP can also be used
import that image into project one, AFTER making sure project one is using the same palette as you have used. if you can select it. (again see amended P1 .ini)
when you are happy with your image, save the image as a koala .kla file.
convert your .KLA file to an executable .PRG file using the converter commandline program
again in the link at the end (instructions for use are in the zip)
your image can now be executed by and c64 or c64 emu.
link:
Useful c64 graphics apps and bits
Steve |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 600 |
My way back to c64 pixelling was through Timanthes.
Basically Go to
Timanthes
Timanthes 3.0 beta
and download 3.0 beta. For windowns only i believe, but boy you can immediatly start working on pixxeling. It has great functionallity and can export pictures directly as en executable.
Read some of the comments and threads here on the csdb to get some tips/advice on working with timanthes, but once you have done that it is very very easy to start again.
Timanthes is a pixelprogram made for graphicians by a graphician. And within 30 minutes of using it, you start to get back that c64 pixelling skill.
and most importantly, Layers:)
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DGGR
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 133 |
I need to convert a PNG image to tiles (charset) and then export them to a file. Got so far as getting Timanthes to create tiles and optimize them... great! But how the hell I can export them to a file? There are values at the bottom of the tiles panel but no export options :( Anyone can give hints? Thanks! |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 600 |
Ask that question in a timanthes thread, i am sure Lars will see & awnser it |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 581 |
Quote: I need to convert a PNG image to tiles (charset) and then export them to a file. Got so far as getting Timanthes to create tiles and optimize them... great! But how the hell I can export them to a file? There are values at the bottom of the tiles panel but no export options :( Anyone can give hints? Thanks!
First re-index your layer. Then optimize your tiles (re-indexed tiles compress better).
Make sure your layers are correct before exporting.
Export. Never mind the export settings, when you're using a tile layer, Timanthes doesn't use those (afaik). Once saved as prg, load in Vice or C64, you'll have your charset at $2000, the colour data at $2800, after that your screendata. Depending on how many tiles are used, your screendata location will vary.
Not sure how things go when you have more than 256 tiles :) |
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DGGR
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 133 |
Thanx Hein, I will try these tips. Happy halloween! ^_^ |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 569 |
HiRes mode (2 col per 8x8 block):
GIMP + cbmplugs (by tao) + simple patch.
Once getting used to it, GIMP is a very powerful crossplatform pixel-tool IMHO.
It allows to save in many formats. Koala included.
Also it provides a 'nice' palette already.
That save-plugin will warn you about color clashes (but not where they are ;-).
The latter can be simple fixed in the plugs-source...
Features I used here:
- Palette
- Layers
- Grid
- "preview" (if you disable dot-for-dot display)
- zoom on mouse-wheel
You can't convert images to HiRes format though. To 16-col c64-palette: yes. 2col per 8x8 char restrictions: no.
Here you see a setup of mine on that mermaid gfx from Syntax'09:
Multicolor (koala):
Skoe's 'multicolor' is crossplatform as well and very nice for pixeling:
MultiColor V0.2.1
Check out latest souce-revisions for very neat extra-features:
http://hg.berlios.de/repos/multicolor
I.e. forced use of %10 or %01 pattern per color (which was used in Zak Is Back for sprite-background-priority (not only %00 are background!).
Of course you can also (ab)use 160x200 in GIMP and resize to 320x200 in the end, or pixel with 2x1 brushes (eeek..),
but I prefer multicolor for this.
Check a setup here (build from source):
You can see the c0-c3 colors, x/y-positions and memory-offsets for bitmap and colormap which I considered quite useful for the animations in there.
The Koala pic in there is based on the EGA-PC-Version with a wonderful touch up by veto btw. (I just changed some bit-patterns).
These are my 2 cents about PC-pixeling (working for linux, windows, mac).
Cheers,
enthusi
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 237 |
drawing symetrical circles in photoshop:
DON'T use photoshop's ellipse object to draw circles for your c64 image, as without antialiasing, they are drawn totally asymetrically and uneven.
DO use either the circular marquee tool to draw the circle and then flood fill OR create a circular pencil at the diameter you require and then just "click" it on.
Steve |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 150 |
Hello all.
I use a software called Promotion from cosmigo software, it is a deluxepaint clone for the PC created by Jan Zimmerman(he created something called gunpaint on the c64 in his days).
I find this tool very nice as a hub when doing pixel by pixel images. It holds no c64 formats, but I put on a grid and a char grid, and I double in x the brush/pixel and set up a grid for placement of the double pixel... You can press a key for going one color up on the palette and another to go one color down again... this way you can work quite fast in here too. It is super nice to just sit in and do the pixel work. |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
yeah, i recommend promotion aswell. has a lot of nice features which are very handy for classic pixel stuff. (i seriously cant see a single reason why anyone would use photoshop instead =)) |
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JCB
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Hmm, lets see, a "do anything" paint program that has the same "no c64 limits", can draw in 2:1 AR like promotion but endless possibilities for creativity with all it's tools and plugins.. Of course nobody should use that for drawing.. |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
promotion eg can deal with the 4 colors per tile limit quite fine. and the palette handling and general pixeling features are superior to photoshop in pretty much every aspect too. if i'd really need one of those fancy plugins, i'd rather use some older paintshop pro, which can use the same plugins as photoshop, but again has much superior palette features. |
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JCB
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
I've used promotion and it's nice for sure but there's certainly no reason NOT to use photoshop. Palette handling and pixelling better than PS? Maybe you've dismissed PS too soon. Sure it's not a specialised pixelling app but there's nothing "stopping" it from doing what you want. |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
well maybe, i have not seen recent versions of PS ... back when i was doing gameboy game stuff (around 2003 or so) we actually bought promotion because PS couldnt really handle certain things that our workflow required (one thing that i will never forget: it couldnt save valid pcx images =P), and the handling of non truecolor images was truely horrible (paintshop pro was much better at that), eg it would randomly fuck up the palette order when loading and/or saving pictures. |
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 216 |
PCX? Seriously? :) |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 237 |
no photoshop has no real problem with pcx's. i spent 2 years or so skinning aircraft textures for Microproses European Air War in 2000/2001 in pcx format. you just have to know that PS saves PCX raw with no compression. whereas stuff like XNview tags it with compression by default and PS won't load it.
Steve |
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The Phantom
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 234 |
I use WinVice for my emulation needs, then simply load up art studio or centauri or whatever editor you want to draw with.
Converting stuff often makes more time than saving it.
While in vice, you can double click any font in your fonts folder(s) and you'll get a notepad like window showing that font used. My recent artwork was done this way, some of my older stuff as well.
You can do a "save state" in vice and go party. Then come back and "load state" and start right where you left off, no further loading required. You should still use your art programs save feature, for backup.
There are programs you can use to convert .bmp or .jpg, .jpeg images, but as I said above, expect to pixel the kinks out. |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
Quote:you just have to know that PS saves PCX raw with no compression.
and if whoever coded the lame exporter had only known how to put exactly that information into the pcx header... |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 150 |
What I ment were I use photoshop, promotion, p1 and lightwave3d and all I can throw at it, but as a final hub I use promotion to create the final image for the c64. I find promotion much better than photoshop for pixels and palette movement up and down... in photoshop I must click to much with the mouse and thet is also insane amounts of mouse moves to get to the palette or other stuff...
When a image is all done I save it and convert it with p1 with yuv settings so it just converts the pixels and does nothing to the actual image. I use a timantes modefied palette while I draw in promotion by the way. Then in P1 one can save out a prg with the koala image. It works good for me!
Please do not discuss if I am wrong or so, this thread is about who does what to create c64 art and maybe others can take some pointers from that... it is not a discussion of who is right or has the per person view best pipeline or wanting your own way to do things to be the winner... it is about who creates c64 art and how they do it. Then one can look at different options and select what one like the most... It is far too much discussion on here, it is actually getting quite boring. One tries to do something or help some other dudes and in the end one is faced with a discussion... even when one do create good productions for this machine one faces negative discussion from different angels... I HATE IT! REALLY HATE IT SO MUCH THAT I HAVE TO RECONSIDER DOING SO MUCH ON THIS PLATFORM. Maybe I am lame but it is really annoying and it suxez bigtime! |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 237 |
@PAL no mate i want no discussions on right or wrong approaches on this thread, all i want is as many options for people to read as possible and see the various options for themselves.
for instance an ex scener who loved dpaint may well pick up on your essay on pro-motion.
one who now uses photoshop everyday may well think.."u can get PS to draw c64 graphics????"
any way that works is as valid as the next. same as the different apps "back in the day".
hopefully the "oldschooler" i mentioned will read this :)
@Groepaz, i think u may find that the header block PS saves off for pcx starts "0" indicating raw data whereas "1" indicates RLE compression on later pcx variants. been a long time tho...
Steve |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
Quote:@Groepaz, i think u may find that the header block PS saves off for pcx starts "0" indicating raw data whereas "1" indicates RLE compression on later pcx variants. been a long time tho...
and it was definately broken at some point :) |
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JCB
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Just found out how to draw in GIMP in 2:1 AR
When creating a new image, in the dialog where you set the size, choose 160 x 200 THEN open the advanced options + section below and change the X res to 50 and Y to 100 (don't think it matters if it's pixel per inch or cm/mm etc).
Then OK that.
Once your squashed image is displayed go to View on the top menu and deselect "Dot for Dot" The image will now expand to the correct size. Now you're working in 2:1 AR :) If you want a char grid set it to 4x8
Save your image, convert with something like P1 and untick "keep aspect"
*edit*
not sure if that's what enthusi was talking about with disabling dot to dot for "preview", as it's not a preview doing it like this it's a live drawable 2:1 screen..
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Archmage
Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 171 |
Valuable thread with some good contributions, this. @PAL: Scene survival rule number 1: never mind the grumpy bastards. They invest all their energy into grumpyness instead of creativity. In the end it is their loss.
For what it is worth, this is my habitual workflow: First I do a mockup in Photoshop. I use a tablet and just make a raw sketch to get an idea of what I want. I then reduce the picture to monochrome so that I get the basic shapes and import these into Project One. I then start filling the chars with single colours so that I get a really lo-res image with lighting and colourscheme. After that the real work begins. I keep on pounding those pixels in until they look sexy.
There are of course instances when I can't use P1. Previously I have used Promotion for these things, but it is not freeware, not cheap and I'm no pirate so I found what I think is a very good alternative: Grafx2. As I am a DPaint user of old, I find this to be a really a neat and easy program. Recommended! |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 581 |
Usually:
Photoshop for mockup -> Timanthes for detailing -> Native c64 tools (or own converter thingy) to get the gfx in a painfull format to be used in my code.
But other PC tools I find handy:
Spritepad is quick and fresh for single sprite animations.
DPaint PC for doing bigger (sprite) animations. Converting them to c64 format can be done with Timanthes.
Cadaver's PC tools are great for doing level maps.
For orthodox Koala pixeling I'd recommend OxPaint. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 95 |
I load a picture into timanthes, press convert and upload to csdb. |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
mmmh you use photoshop and then have to notice that promotion isnt free? =D
one thing i dont see mentioned yet is aspect ratio ... ie if you are drawing anything where proportions matter, you gotta keep in mind that unlike on a pc, pixels on the c64 are not square. so a perfect circle drawn in photoshop will look slightly vertically stretched on the real thing.
so pc pic vs real thing looks like this:
 vs
and if you ever wondered why certain gfx made by usa ppl looks a bit strange, this is why:
 vs
probably not trivial to adress this problem in a crossdev environment, except at conversion time. atleast i havent seen any app that considers non square pixels for preview. (some video editing software might? =P)
one of my favourite examples on how this matters is the "earth" picture by jhm here in correct ntsc aspect ratio, and here the same picture displayed in pal. yuck! =) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 581 |
piss off, coder, this is not the math corner, this is the art corner. ;) |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
yeah, eggheads ftw ! =)
(and as for the grumpy part: talking about graphics tools has *zero* to do with art =P) |
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Archmage
Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 171 |
Quoting Groepazmmmh you use photoshop and then have to notice that promotion isnt free? =D
If that was addressed to me, my Photoshop licence is paid for. :) |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
thats why i found it funny... because promotion isnt really all that expensive compared to photoshop :) (i was suprised how much it costs now though.... i payed 29.95 ... ok, if they really fixed all the annyoing bugs and crashes my old version has, then its probably still a good deal =P) |
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JCB
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
GIMP will allow for different pixel AR display using the same method I posted about to get 2:1, you just have to work out an x/y pair instead of the 50/100 I used. Of course it's limited by the host resolution and the scale factor of the window you're drawing/viewing in as to how it looks. |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
Quote:you just have to work out an x/y pair instead of the 50/100
if by "work out" you mean take them from the pictures above, yes =) (unless it cant handle 1:0,936 .... which wouldnt surprise me at all in the case of gimp =P) might get a bit tricky with multicolor double pixels depending how gimp handles that stuff and how you need the data later on :) |
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JCB
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Yes, work out as in 50/100 for x/y will give you square 2:1 AR pixels. As for accuracy you can set the sizes up to pixels/dots per meter so you can use pretty big numbers to get the x/y division right. Of course as I said, the res of the host machine will have a greater bearing on the result visually (ie how each pixel is shaped compared to those surrounding it)..
Oh yeah, output, they're still just pixels internally, just the number of host display pixels that are used to display them (eg the aspect ratio) is changed. You create a 160x200 image, draw it, save it, load it into P1 and let it scale it to 320 or you can scale it to 320 in gimp if you want, makes no difference. |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
that sounds almost perfect.... so if i set it up like that, and then use something like a circular selection to create an exact circle, will that work as intended? have to play around with this.... is there something like field->frame "doubling" too? ie not scale using nearest neighbour (which would still interpolate and thus modify colors where you dont want it) but simply repeating every column twice? |
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JCB
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
It should. If you want your circle to look correct on the C64 and you know the AR of the C64 (bearing in mind most TVs/monitors have some kind of width setting) and you've set gimp to the same, then drawing a circle that looks correct should produce one that is correct on output as the ratios will be the same.
The doubling on gimp can be done with no interpolation. If you want, as you say just repeated columns, then you just scale the image in X by 200% and set the interpolation method to None.
*edit*
I suppose with the different TV/Monitor AR's depending on people's settings, you've got to go with the standard, then at least a circle drawn to look right in the standard AR can be used by people to have a reasonably correct AR on their display by changing the width. |
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CRRN
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 132 |
What I use is
1. Timanthes - It's a Photoshop of c64 pixeling
I think people really underestimate it becaue of some minor crashes it still has.
- it has layers
- it works with c64 palete by default
- it has nice converter
- it has gradients
- it has color-replace function which is my favoreite and can be used in many scenarios - even as a tool for Joe's 136 color technique
- it has dithering brushes
- it has select tool with magic wand (my second favorite)
I did a small presentation at Silesia party in Poland of techniques i use with Timanthes. I hope it was usefull but I really have more to show. So come to S5 party September 2011 to see me and Timanthes in action
2. I use Grafx2 now
I'll alredy pixeled 2 pics in this kool tool (BP'10 entry and latest 4 color entry)
- it's Deluxe Paint clone (sort off)
- works on every platform possible (BeOS/Haiku, Amiga, MacOs, Linux, etc,etc)
- has layers
- gradients, shades, transparency (based on pallete)
- dither brushes (with defined dither patterns)
- fat/tall pixels
- c64 collors palette by defalut
- and c64 export modes too (with grid and scripting capabilities)
grafx2 has also the spirit of oldschool (amiga like) pixeling which is a nice thing to have in photoshop cs5 era. |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
Quote:I suppose with the different TV/Monitor AR's depending on people's settings, you've got to go with the standard, then at least a circle drawn to look right in the standard AR can be used by people to have a reasonably correct AR on their display by changing the width.
yes thats the idea of course... however from experience it is not that much of a problem in PAL land, there tvs and monitors are usually atleast close to the standard pal aspect ratio.... it is much more of problem in ntsc land appearently, i got a bunch of photos and captures of the screens from some ntsc guys, and the have HUGE differences. often it looks like ntsc ppl adjusted their monitor to show as little border as possible, which as a result distorts the aspect ratio completely beyond repair :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 3146 |
Carrion, I guess some Timanthes tutorial videos would reach a wider audience, and its needed as people are having trouble using it. |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 600 |
@ Carrion: i second what Groepaz said. A Timanthes tutorial video would be amazing! |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
should i have edited your post instead of telling: it wasnt me ? =D |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 600 |
is was late, i meant oswald.... |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 126 |
is there anything specific that people are having trouble with in Timanthes? |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 600 |
I think not specific, but for new users a tuturoial video would be great. I think some time should be spend on explaining the layer setup timanthes uses. And how the background system works. |
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motionn
Registered: Mar 2011
Posts: 9 |
Timanthes is too good to be true, which is why it crashes, I'd guess.
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Jon
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 239 |
I've had good luck with Timanthes 3.0. The older version(s) of Timanthes crash like my crack-addled grandmother.
Jon |
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Jok
Registered: Apr 2009
Posts: 2 |
Maybe its offtopic but..
I wonder if there are any chances to prepare (by talented and helpful person :) some script for Timanthes, Promotion (better) or other program with could help work with MUCSU NUFLI (etc) restricions ??
Ofcourse editor would be better.. (new version of P1=)
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Mase
Registered: Feb 2012
Posts: 5 |
I'm trying to transfer a png image to C64 for the first time through Timanthes 3.0, however I'm not having much luck when I try to export it as a .prg I get this error message:
Unhandled exception has occurred in your application...
What am I doing wrong? |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 95 |
Ah, the unhandled exception error... It means you don't understand c64 limitations and therefore are not allowed to use Timanthes ;) |
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Mase
Registered: Feb 2012
Posts: 5 |
Sorry I'm a bit of a tech noob :) I've since done some extra digging for solutions. Turns out I didn't have to look very far, and problem solved. So can I use Timanthes now? pleeeease ;) |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 95 |
If it works for you, it works for me :) |
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Veto
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 120 |
for those who want to do nufli pic with timanthes here is a layer to display the fli bug, sprite and afli area:
timanthes file |
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d0c
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 186 |
is there any new updated pixel programs for the pc to make c64 pix?.. |
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Bob
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 27 |
Soon Censor will release one pixel editing program for PC ;)
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 95 |
including nufli/muifli and all that fancy shit? with linux binaries? :-) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 719 |
Quoting BobSoon Censor will release one pixel editing program for PC ;)
A program where you can edit one pixel? Cool! :) |
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d0c
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 186 |
Quote: Soon Censor will release one pixel editing program for PC ;)
looking forward to it :)
just hope it don't take years.... |
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Heavy Stylus
Registered: Apr 2007
Posts: 42 |
http://p1.untergrund.net/
Project One is very easy to use, and designed for pixelling with the C64 MC 'brixels'. :) |
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CRT
Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 4 |
Bob is referring to a Windows pixel editor I'm working on and it will handle more than one pixel! :-)
-Yazoo used it to edit for the double screen compo so it's already useful!
It's written in C++/MFC for Windows but is being evaluated in WINE by some testers. It's a pixel editor foremost, old school in a modern Windows environment with clipboard support etc. The aim is not to replace any existing tools nor be a complete solution. The aim is Censor needs and internal requests but I'm making it as generic and flexible as possible.
A first release is scheduled in about a month. I figure this one will never be 100% finished so there will be a "Check for updates" item in the menu.
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Zaz
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 26 |
With source code? |
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Groepaz
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 5800 |
yeah source would be nice. no source is what makes timanthes and p1 a lot less useful than they could be :( |
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CRT
Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 4 |
Open Source is a likely outcome. Beta release in aprox a month. Though I want to bring it to version 1.0 before opening the source completely. I would feel terrible if people branched on something I feel is incomplete. If you PM me I could give up source or binary before that.
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FATFrost
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 171 |
Any chance someone can port this to android?? It would be really nice :) |
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Jok
Registered: Apr 2009
Posts: 2 |
CRT: Can't wait for editor - it will handle more than just hires and multi i hope?
Can i become a beta tester too? |
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CRT
Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 4 |
Hi again, I have no intention of hijacking this tread but in relation to the previous posts I'd love for more people to try my editor. Briefly, it's a low level editor, perhaps not suitable to all graphicians but in time I hope it will please more people. At the moment it's a development/alpha version and feedback to me is not ignored. Just PM or email me for a download link.
It's not a secret but I just don't want it publicly released just yet as I want to be able to support it well.
CRT
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