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Forums > C64 Composing > Which tracker?
2017-07-29 00:52
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
Which tracker?

I'm an old bloke. Part of a local group way back. Used to make stuff on Huelsbeck's Soundmonitor and later the Rockmon.
Then moved on to Amiga and then the ST - attached to a bunch of Synthies.
But now I'm back to the scene and want to do something "Sidish," because that particular sound never left my heart.
The Gretchenfrage is: Which tool? I've loaded up the Soundmonitor and was puzzled how it works. Seems 30 years of
absence has wiped my memory *laughs*
Surely there are better tools? And what about digi-drums? I liked that Rockmon.
Stuff like Goat-Tracker for convenience? Is it true to the sound? Or does it sound different on VICE and a real thing?
(Yeah, I know that every SID sounds a bit different...)
2017-07-29 00:55
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8271
use goattracker for starters, if you know protracker a lot of things will be familiar.

anything involving digis pretty much involves custom coded tools these days, there are no "modern" editors for that (except perhaps pollytracker - which is ONLY digis)
2017-07-29 01:12
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
No, not familiar with Protracker. As for Goat, I'd like to do it native, so it's 2nd choice.
Only digis is not cool. Is there anything bad about Rockmon these days then or should I give it a go?
2017-07-29 01:16
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8271
uhm well.. rockmonitor (and soundmonitor) are lacking a bunch of features that are present in more "modern" editors. that shouldnt stop you from using them if you want to do that, of course =)

as for "native" editors, i would point at sidwizard. there are a few more (the one from hein, the one from lft... i forgot the names =P) but i think sidwizard is used by most people, so it'd be easier to get questions answers should you have some.
2017-07-29 01:44
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
kk, I'll give Rockmon a shot since I used it *excessively* way back. My memory how to use it (it's a hacked Soundmon) will come back if I use it I hope.
Can later switch to better stuff. And oh! Me and my pal 128 are eager to use it. Do you think that works? I have heard *bad* things about the later sound chips...lemme see...
Thanks, dude!
2017-07-29 02:03
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8271
the samples will only work on a 6581 (old sid chip)... other than that, no problem. a lot of musicians prefer the new chip actually :)
2017-07-29 02:13
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
Well, I guess I'll try comfy on a sofa, laptop and VICE for fiddling around and about and then move on to the BIG Screen, C128 and a 80cm CRT TV :)
2017-07-30 14:09
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 695
Modern Love Classics this wasn't done with RockMon, I can tell you, sir ;)
2017-07-30 14:14
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 811
Quote: Modern Love Classics this wasn't done with RockMon, I can tell you, sir ;)

So how was it made, then?
2017-07-30 14:17
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 695
I shall explain the process in prod info. Till then I don't want to hijack this thread too much ;) I just want to encourage Nibelung for up to date tools :D
2017-07-30 14:27
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 811
Quote: I shall explain the process in prod info. Till then I don't want to hijack this thread too much ;) I just want to encourage Nibelung for up to date tools :D

Please do. I'm curious how you merge mods with sids, and if there's a way to do a final sound-production, or if it's just tweaking in different programs all the time, untill the balance is right.
2017-07-30 17:12
DKT

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 45
Quote:
... I'd like to do it native ... Is there anything bad about Rockmon these days ...


Like Groepaz said. There are 3 editors which are currently maintained (a live projects). Comparing to old trackers they have good documentation (PDFs, source code, authors help) and features like user friendly disk functions, packer included, etc.

Blackbird 1.1
Virtuoso 1.01
SID-Wizard 1.7
2017-07-30 18:33
Linus

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 572
Quote: Please do. I'm curious how you merge mods with sids, and if there's a way to do a final sound-production, or if it's just tweaking in different programs all the time, untill the balance is right.

The latter, dear master Hein. The process is very counter intuitive and there are no easy shortcuts.
2017-07-30 19:29
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8271
i havent even tried to compose an original tune with my stuff (which works very much alike) yet for the same reason... workflow sux :=P
2017-08-04 03:21
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
@Jammer: Hijack it! No prob here :)
@DKT: Rockmon for two simple reasons: A) The Drums :p
B) The fourth voice!! <<! <-(!) <<<!!! :)

I'll give Modern Love Classics a shot. A lil late now...

Ah, by the way, I had a rendezvouz with GoatTracker. What immediately hits me is, that EVERY FUCKING Tracker is complicated as hell! No chance without a manual! Hey! It's fucking 2017! Ok, some helpful popups on a native tracker are difficult, but not impossible. But crisscross stuff? Should be mousedriven and hovering over a topic should explain. Or is the scene too scenish and their tools too toolish? :P
2017-08-04 03:58
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
The above mentioned demo crashes on VICE 3.1 with a CPU Jam at
$02AA. Win8.1 x64. 3 times. :(

But I dl'd "Nights falls over Amydala." Yay! Certainly NOT my style, but an interesting sound for sure! But no, Jammer, can't beat the Didi-Drums. Oops! Digi-Drums. And yes, perhaps
my memory is *really* fucked up after 30 years, hearing is believing...perhaps I'll drop the whole topic after I heard the quality of 'em Rockmon-Drums...*grin*

Gimme a couple o' days :p
2017-08-04 08:18
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 811
Quote: @Jammer: Hijack it! No prob here :)
@DKT: Rockmon for two simple reasons: A) The Drums :p
B) The fourth voice!! <<! <-(!) <<<!!! :)

I'll give Modern Love Classics a shot. A lil late now...

Ah, by the way, I had a rendezvouz with GoatTracker. What immediately hits me is, that EVERY FUCKING Tracker is complicated as hell! No chance without a manual! Hey! It's fucking 2017! Ok, some helpful popups on a native tracker are difficult, but not impossible. But crisscross stuff? Should be mousedriven and hovering over a topic should explain. Or is the scene too scenish and their tools too toolish? :P


Hehe, calm down and rock like it's 1987.
2017-08-04 12:58
Mr. SID

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 337
Quote: The above mentioned demo crashes on VICE 3.1 with a CPU Jam at
$02AA. Win8.1 x64. 3 times. :(

But I dl'd "Nights falls over Amydala." Yay! Certainly NOT my style, but an interesting sound for sure! But no, Jammer, can't beat the Didi-Drums. Oops! Digi-Drums. And yes, perhaps
my memory is *really* fucked up after 30 years, hearing is believing...perhaps I'll drop the whole topic after I heard the quality of 'em Rockmon-Drums...*grin*

Gimme a couple o' days :p


You probably want to try turning on "True Drive Emulation" in VICE.
2017-08-04 13:34
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8271
TDE should be enabled by default... perhaps the problem is using x64 instead of x64sc?
2017-08-04 14:44
iAN CooG

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1748
nah, x64 works perfectly with it.
2017-08-05 09:50
FATFrost

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 204
If you want to make a sid track, every note has to be massaged out of the sid chip... im not good at massage ;/
2017-08-05 21:59
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
Yeah, True Drive Emulation is on. And using X64 too. Will try
it on another setup tomorrow. This was on my laptop. *Might*
using a nightly build, not sure about that.
2017-08-06 00:38
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
@FASTFrost: What is that mean?
You are not a musician?
Perhaps take a walk to the Coder's Den then?
2017-08-06 01:01
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
Well, this is something off Topic now. Looked over the forums but didn't find anything useful anyway:
My PC archive of C64 has grown like a cancer. It's now at 33.6 GB.
Try to maintain and get as much over to the real thing (I'm the one using 5 1/4 floppy disks) and it *grows*...
YAY! IT GROWS! Aaaaarrrrgghhhaaaaaiiiiieeeeee!
Of course not the software. It's scans of Zzap64!, 64'er, Happy Computer, Compute! and the like. Also Boxshots, Manuals.
A whole archive, but WIP.
Anyone else as mad as me?
2017-08-08 19:02
-$iXX!-

Registered: May 2005
Posts: 219
Quoting Nibelung

Anyone else as mad as me?


Nope. You're the mad man.
2017-08-08 21:40
uneksija

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 42
Give SID-Wizard a shot! It's awesome, and has a good manual that you can print.
2017-08-08 23:02
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1317
Oh I just looooooove printed manuals!!!
2017-08-09 12:12
Slajerek

Registered: May 2015
Posts: 27
MG Tracker V0.80 :) :)

Just kidding, I think there are better trackers out there... however as far as I've been recently contacted by Matt he's indeed using my tracker for his new SIDs for Reformation... it seems mainly to keep that specific sound style. We'll see how it goes anyway.
2017-08-09 17:35
Xiny6581

Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 52
My opinion:
If you're on multi platform and you wish to work in a protracker form I'd recommend GoatTracker or CheeseCutter.
GoatTracker is easy to get into and has an easy orientated workflow and clean interface. You'll feel like home if you're used to use the proTracker series, FastTracker/ScreamTracker/Impulse Tracker.
If you're used to work a bit differently with blocks and sectors you'd like to check out CheeseCutter. Eventhough, CheeseCutter is tracker based it has some inits that you'll need to understand but once at it, it's a powerful tracker.

When it comes to native C-64 I'd look into SID-Wizard, due it's elegant and easy to use. It has all the modern feel to it and it's fast to get comfortable with. However, if you're up for a great alternative with smart design Blackbird is the way to to. It's a very powerful tracker with lot's of options, clean interface and many optimized features. Also using very little rastertime.
and If you're crazy enough and want to get super modern check out Virtuoso. Super effective tracker with extremely smart layout and rocket kicking sound-design. It takes a bit of tried to get used to the workflow but once you're at ut, you'll feel the power!

Then we come to the mid-rage land.
DMC and DMC pro - Due they are very competent and got a smart way to optimize your songs. The pro -series can be a tricky to understand, but once you get it, no return.
X-Tracker - Also one hell of a competent tracker with wavetable magic to make really advanced instruments.
TFX 3.x - A blend of tracker and editor, with crazy logic operators to make your sounds really crazy, with direct-access to the SID registers.
To round of things still, JCH Editor is one of the best! Especially with the different NewPlayers with different options for each player.

Okay that's my thoughts :)
Later!
2017-08-12 19:03
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
@Sla: Will try, thanks!

@Xiny6581: WtF?! Whoa, that's a novel! But *loads* of info in it. I like good novels...
Will check them all out. Why the hell must the concept "free time" be sooo sparse these days?
2017-08-12 19:08
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
@Frantic: Yeah? Come, get some :)
2017-08-12 21:04
FATFrost

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 204
@Slajerek, which tracker is that?
2017-08-26 16:24
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
Ok, got some spare time today. Sitting before RockMon VI
now, experimenting with noises and trying to create some
instruments. RockMon is ok, had only 5 mins in there to
remember and find my way around. Possibly moving on to
something more advanced itf, but for now it's ok.
Well, I *will* post the stuff I'm doing now...But it's
*highly* experimental. Currently re-discovering grinding
noises and some very weird screeches :)
Fans of "Einstürzende Neubauten" or "Bauhaus" and Gothics
alike will find themselves pleased...)
2017-08-26 19:08
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
Hrm.
The load/save system of Rockmon is interesting :p
Good chunk of work is lost now, since this crappy stuff
doesn't inform you if the disk is full...
Ok, ok. Just learning. The sound itself is in Ordnung. The
program does its job. But 157 blocks for a save?!
Am I overlooking something or are the samples that large?
There's a demo song attached, but I simply started at be00,
limited the loop to my 4 or 5 edits and saved. I hope it
won't save the former Rattenschwanz too.
I have no clue how it was on the Soundmonitor or the original
Rockmon (I guess I was using v1 way back) but I guess I'd
remember if the stuff was THAT large.
Any hotkey to wipe the memory? Does anybody know? The
class? Bueller? :)
What I don't remember is where I should start in memory.
I'm no coder, so...Any clues from where to where?
Rockmon saves from 4000-d000. WtF?

Conclusion: Sound ok, program: Crap :p
Well, I wanted it that way...
Yep, it's that fourth voice, yay!
2017-08-26 19:21
GH/MSL/Toondichters

Registered: Sep 2014
Posts: 50
In the past JCH and Goattracker2...lately Virtuoso :D
2017-08-26 19:36
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
Yep, thanks!
We discussed that before. I need the cracks now.
2017-08-26 19:47
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
It's *really* crappy that I can't edit posts later.
Ok, somewhat foolish to say "I need the cracks now"
on a C64 page which is riddled with cracks...
Nah, I meant "I need the *Cracks* now..." - People
who know what's up :p
2017-08-26 20:47
GH/MSL/Toondichters

Registered: Sep 2014
Posts: 50
Just mentioning here what worked for me ;)
2017-08-26 22:05
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
Yo, thanks!

But I'm in the middle of finally *doing* something. :)
And that damned thingy keeps crashing...
2017-09-02 01:32
Nibelung

Registered: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
Wake hard in the morning.
See the young girl milking.
Stream rushing by on a bed of stone.
Old goats and sandstone cracking
All containing
Squeezing that river like it squeeze your bones.
In the long red, red valley people live here too long.
In the long red, red valley they only sing the valley song.
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