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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
timeline of SID achievements
I'm looking for a timeline of SID achievements. Does this exist? A list of important software (trackers and non-trackers, midi-sequencers and midi-slaves, sample-players and "drum machines", generatives, remix-tools, etc) and SID-tricks (playing digi-stuff, multispeed, hardrestart, etc). Who, where, when, how, why. I think a timeline over these things would be important to put together, if it doesn't already exist.
(I work on a timeline of chip music in general here: chipflip.wordpress.com/timeline. It is far from finished, of course. Suggestions are very welcome)
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
The recent invention from last year regarding 8 bit samples on C64 (by SounDemon - using oscillators to "seek" the correct sample value) should be relevant here I guess.
Also hardrestart should be in there of course, but afaik it is not completely clear "who invented this". Especially since "hardrestart" is a bit ill-defined and can be understood in several ways.
I am not really able to help out regarding the specific details and dates regarding the more historical stuff.... |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 404 |
I thought 'Metal Dust' also used waveforms to play its samples (with a SuperCPU, though). Has anyone compared those routines yet? |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
@Frantic: regarding hard restart... well as it's basically just an ADSR manipulation, you can also easily do soft restarts... check some old Charles Deenen players for example.
So yes, hard to say WHO actually invented it. And there's even more to it, to make a stable sound trig. Geir Tjelta knows more about that than I do, but things like manipulating part of ADSR and "some" cycles later setting instrument-ADSR, that's something I didn't know until he told me. Could be there are even more things that we don't know yet :-) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Goto80: there is no timeline, we have to write it.
so let's try (rough beta):
1984:
1. someone invents the arpeggio routine.. it is unclear who, but people start using it around that time.
2. some games feature sampled speech in them. (space taxi)
1987:
1. the first music in a game, with sampled drums, is released. it's arkanoid by martin galway.
but we have to mention, that chris hülsbeck made bad cat music, before arkanoid was released! (bad cat was released after)
2. the first music with 2 channels of sampled drums, is released by the banana/TEK
3. the first music with 3 channels of sampled drums, is released by the banana/TEK
(note: the drumkit/player rhythm king has 2 channel sampled drums, but this only plays samples, no music)
1988:
1. Jens-Christian Huus (JCH) implements hard restart in his music editor. a private selection of people use his editor, its not released for the masses.
1989:
1. playback of samples, using pulse width modulation is a reality. its unclear who was first.
(now is a huge gap in my knowledge, so i do a timewarp)
2008:
1. soundemon and the human code machine, release a demo called vicious sid, that plays amiga modules, using the sid voices (not the filter D418, which is the OLD way)
2. the same demo, plays music using only the VIC chip!
(ok so this is not a SID achievement..) :)
thats what i could say... i think that music player coders would know more about who did what and when..
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 452 |
first use of multispeed would fit here too, only i don't know neither who or when :/ |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Rob Hubbard used hard restart, although more primitive (very hard), already in 1985 in tunes like Commando. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: first use of multispeed would fit here too, only i don't know neither who or when :/
Wasn't that Anthony Crowther with his Zig Zag tune? |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quote: Wasn't that Anthony Crowther with his Zig Zag tune?
absolutely nope - michael winterberg did some in 1986 but i don't know which tune was his first :| |
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Cresh
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354 |
What concerns multispeed:
http://groups.google.pl/group/comp.sys.cbm/browse_thread/thread..
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: What concerns multispeed:
http://groups.google.pl/group/comp.sys.cbm/browse_thread/thread..
Well, Jammer could be true about Michael Winterberg.
I remember a thread (or was it on IRC) about Winterberg and his custom-made replay-routines per tune which had the possibility to do double/multi speed per instrument (afaik).
Most Michael Winterberg tunes were made around 85,86...(also afaik)
We only need an scener with autism to dissect the players to confirm the dates ;-)
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
The trick by Soundemon in his tune in "Pico", where the noise waveform is resetted and restarted periodically to create new sounds, should maybe be mentioned too.
Regarding multispeed... To me that doesn't really feel like an invention of something qualitatively new. More like a difference in degree. Nevertheless, talk about "multispeed" is of course common, and maybe that in itself justifies the inclusion of that stuff in the timeline too. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 452 |
@Frantic: multispeed is the most valuable sid invention ever to me, because it allowed a certain improvement in soundprogramming, by increasing the 'sound resolution'. ain't that worth mentioning? |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1702 |
Quote: @Frantic: multispeed is the most valuable sid invention ever to me, because it allowed a certain improvement in soundprogramming, by increasing the 'sound resolution'. ain't that worth mentioning?
It may be hard to find who was first though.
There are many early songs running on timer IRQ instead of raster interrupt.
Some of those are probably more than 1x speed.
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
@Rambones: That's a great start! What are the names of these Banana-releases with sampled music? And how do you mean that they play music, compared to Rhythm King? That the pitch of the samples are changed?
Regarding multispeed - Frantik is technically right that it's only a quantitative difference. Still, it is relevant to mention if you want to list important developments for music. But then, since its a relative term, the origin of it is not an objective fact. But so far, the suggestion is 1986 with Winterberg and Galway. But..
@tlr: do you have any examples of such early songs? |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
No, I guess he means that there are the three sid voices with 3 digi channels together rather than playing digi only. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: @Rambones: That's a great start! What are the names of these Banana-releases with sampled music? And how do you mean that they play music, compared to Rhythm King? That the pitch of the samples are changed?
Regarding multispeed - Frantik is technically right that it's only a quantitative difference. Still, it is relevant to mention if you want to list important developments for music. But then, since its a relative term, the origin of it is not an objective fact. But so far, the suggestion is 1986 with Winterberg and Galway. But..
@tlr: do you have any examples of such early songs?
/MUSICIANS/B/Banana/IBM_Music_22.sid
2 chn sampled drums
/MUSICIANS/B/Banana/Jammaster_III_Demo.sid
3 chn samples, ok sorry, its 1988
rhythm king is just a drum prg, it dont play any sid voices
multispeed: michael winterberg was first, but he didnt use even spaced rasters, he just used cia timer.
crowther is first with even spaced raster, zig zag, 1987.
wizzball hiscore uses multispeed on 1 sound, the wood block sound..
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Yie Ar Kung-Fu II from 1986 uses multispeed on the title tune. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: Yie Ar Kung-Fu II from 1986 uses multispeed on the title tune.
It does not! |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quote: It does not!
maybe it does but i cannot hear it ;) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Hello knock knock!! see 50hz in sidplay ? hello ? |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1702 |
Quote: Hello knock knock!! see 50hz in sidplay ? hello ?
It could be a bad rip. Perhaps better to check the game?
1. Load up Yie Ar Kung-Fu II + [purple border] and start until game running.
2. enter vice monitor and insert this code:
.C:047d 4C 00 8F JMP $8F00
.C:8f00 EE 20 D0 INC $D020
.C:8f03 20 05 6F JSR $6F05
.C:8f06 20 B5 A0 JSR $A0B5
.C:8f09 20 2E A4 JSR $A42E
.C:8f0c 20 35 AE JSR $AE35
.C:8f0f 20 00 CE JSR $CE00
.C:8f12 20 9F A2 JSR $A29F
.C:8f15 20 10 AD JSR $AD10
.C:8f18 CE 20 D0 DEC $D020
.C:8f1b 60 RTS
3: Et voilà!
Zyron is right. The title tune is 4x. The others 2x.
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Thanks tlr. :) |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Hello, knock-kock! Hello?!12 |
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
From the First arpeggio effect thread:
Quoting TNTStarquake is 4x too IIRC, and it's from 1985 according to GB64.
Quoting rambonesHmmm ok then, but Starquake is not called with 2 different play routines. it only sets 4x on the cia, but does not use spaced interval jsr play - so this is not 'real' multispeed if you ask me.
It all boils down to how you define multispeed. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11090 |
Quote:
it only sets 4x on the cia, but does not use spaced interval jsr play - so this is not 'real' multispeed if you ask me.
calling something not multispeed because of a tiny detail in the player is simply bullshit if you ask me. there really is no difference between players that call the same subroutine several times, and those that have a dedicated "fx" routine - the later are simply faster and eat less rastertime, no more no less. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Word, Groepaz. And doesn't even Fred Gray's player do some simple form of multispeed by inserting a DEC sidregister (forgot which one) somewhere? By the loosest of definitions this would be multi, too, as it changes the same registers more than once a frame.
[Edit: According to Rambones definition 99% of all multispeed tunes in HVSC weren't multispeed at all, as we converted the vast majority to CIA timed ones for backward compatibility reasons (old players don't emulate the VIC). ;-)] |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Alrite so jump on the wagon with groepaz and make me a target as usual, instead of going for the ball. good! |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Then so btw, all Galways tunes are multispeed, as his player has 4-7 JSRs to get it going and no one can say for sure if it updates any sid reg 2+ times because they havent checked.. wrong!
I would define it as: jsr to the same routine, x times + jsr to a special routine, that changes the sound, while in-frame.
Does Yie Ar Kung Fu II sound like 2x ? 3x 4x ? no it dont and never did, so why call it this ? i dont get it.. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: It could be a bad rip. Perhaps better to check the game?
1. Load up Yie Ar Kung-Fu II + [purple border] and start until game running.
2. enter vice monitor and insert this code:
.C:047d 4C 00 8F JMP $8F00
.C:8f00 EE 20 D0 INC $D020
.C:8f03 20 05 6F JSR $6F05
.C:8f06 20 B5 A0 JSR $A0B5
.C:8f09 20 2E A4 JSR $A42E
.C:8f0c 20 35 AE JSR $AE35
.C:8f0f 20 00 CE JSR $CE00
.C:8f12 20 9F A2 JSR $A29F
.C:8f15 20 10 AD JSR $AD10
.C:8f18 CE 20 D0 DEC $D020
.C:8f1b 60 RTS
3: Et voilà!
Zyron is right. The title tune is 4x. The others 2x.
<wrong post> |
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Inge
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 144 |
Oh, dear... Seems like these discussions never end.
Some people argument that a multispeed tune should be called at different raster lines (according to speed) to qualify for multispeed, what happens outside the IRQ is uninteresting. While this is rather strict, it's easier to judge most tunes by this definition.
There are, of course, many tunes which are independent of the raster for timing and speed. They use either CIA for timing, or, common for older game music, some obscure ldx/ldy loops.
When it comes to Galway, he usually have 6-7 JSR's for the driver. Three for updating player data for each voice, and three for updating the effects for each voice. The 7th JSR is usually some global effect (ex. filter sweep).
Quoting RambonesDoes Yie Ar Kung Fu II sound like 2x ? 3x 4x ? no it dont and never did, so why call it this ? i dont get it..
The code at $047d calls all the player updates (7 JSR's), and for the title music, the IRQ calls $047d at rasters 29,61,a9,e4. In my head, that should be 4 times/frame and that's a 4x tune.
There are far from all multispeed tunes that actually sound like they're updated more than once each frame, but we also have tunes (ex. GRG's Club 69) that sound's like multispeed, but aren't. |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 342 |
I'll add another one.. sonix systems who did the music for turbo charge / system 3.. (great team whoever they are ;-) ) 5 channels ingame (?)
maybe others did that before and maybe not..
although when I heard for 4 sound channels on agent x on the spectrum, by Tim Follin.. I was WTF.. grainy sound, but I was impressed.
Galway did a fair bit with the 1 channel speccy chip..e.g. check ping pong etc. (pre AY chip.. save the hate mail, I know it's not a 64 ;-) hehe)
I'd mention things like JT's turbo outrun music etc. Wonder which game used the most samples.. well perceived anyway.
maybe things like Hubbards, mix-e-load are worth a mention.. that was in delta right?
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
So, the simple answer to the hardrestart question then, is 1986 with Winterberg & Galway, but that excludes some previous works such as Starquake that might not be 1x. ?
New Question: Does anyone know what happened around the time Soundmonitor was released? Was this really the first tracker? (in general, not only C64)
@rambones: /MUSICIANS/B/Banana/Jammaster_III_Demo.sid - this is not 3 channels of samples, or, uh?
@chancer:
yeah, interactive or generated music is definitely interesting for this. there are some stuff where pattern/channels are re-arranged (delta, lazy jones, endless trip, to be on top, and many more i guess). but personally, i think it's more interesting with more detailed interaction or algorithms. you know, stuff where you can really hear/see that every execution is different. block acid dub, maybe? but...
- btw, do you know of any speccy-audio-nerds to ask about these things?
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Yes, soundmonitor is the first tracker.
Hmm i have sprung a leak..
Jammaster III demo is just 1 chn it seems.. what is special about this player is that it plays samples forward/backwards in 16 different speeds..
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1702 |
@goto80: This Hungarian thingy for the ZX81 is a duration based editor/sequencer (for external synths) ca 1983:
http://www.sinclair.hu/speccyalista/konyvtar/kezikonyvek/MUZIX8..
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 342 |
well goto..
maybe you'll like
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/projectay/
(I know I should hang my head in shame posting a speccy link ;-) ) it's like their version of HVSC.. hopefully tim hasn't been on it..aggh!
errm I had a speccy when it was pre AY chip.. so it was the pizzo bleeper aka 1 sound channel..
I'm pretty sure Galway was one of the first to do amazing things and of course Follin and plenty more.. check his ping pong tune and be amazed.. Things like gyroscope used fast switching to appear as multi-channel.. they even had a thing out called "wham the music box" which you can get at WOS also. I'm pretty sure that gyroscope was one of the first to use that effect.
but if you contact WOS etc.. there are a few there that will be of help, who are FAR better clued up.
I was just trying to think of a list of things that used samples.. hmm last v8, suicide express, exploding fist and of course ghost busters.. I'm pretty sure that last one had speech on all formats (although I maybe wrong) |
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Turtle
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 70 |
Quote: Yes, soundmonitor is the first tracker.
Hmm i have sprung a leak..
Jammaster III demo is just 1 chn it seems.. what is special about this player is that it plays samples forward/backwards in 16 different speeds..
From the deep dumps of my mem I recall some read that the lead part of Ballblazer's titlemusic is done using some sort of meldodic algorithm to sound different each time. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Hard restart: it seems we cannot say with 100% certainty who did it first.. Laxity informed me that JCH got help to do it from him, and that he himself peeked, maybe at Bjerregaards player..
So, who did it, remains a mystery. |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Define "Hard Restart"? Funny word by the way. I just wonder, because I just looked at it as clearing the Release in the gate off call, to get a more stable attack. You can even add other methods than just clearing the release to get stable ADSR inits. That's a secret. hehe. ;-) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Hubbard's Zoids player has a hard-coded ADSR change on the gate off call, if no tie-note is chosen by the way. He was probably the first. He was also the first with waveform-table drums, that sounded good. Looks like Hubbard knew what he was doing. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
The fact that not only (R)elease affects the internal envelope counter, but all of the ADSR parameters, and that you can also use the testbit to achieve snappier sounds in a usueful way in some cases is pretty much public knowledge I guess.. Dunno if that was what Geir was referring to, in general, or if it was something more specific...
I also know that setting a higher release than the currently active one (if the release phase is the currently active phase) will make the sound silent immediately (at least I read that somewhere - I should check it I guess).... Maybe that is useful for "hard-restarting" too?
Hmhmh... |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: The fact that not only (R)elease affects the internal envelope counter, but all of the ADSR parameters, and that you can also use the testbit to achieve snappier sounds in a usueful way in some cases is pretty much public knowledge I guess.. Dunno if that was what Geir was referring to, in general, or if it was something more specific...
I also know that setting a higher release than the currently active one (if the release phase is the currently active phase) will make the sound silent immediately (at least I read that somewhere - I should check it I guess).... Maybe that is useful for "hard-restarting" too?
Hmhmh...
Hi Frantic. No I am not reffering to test-bit. That's different and won't close the ADSR envelope, but reset the waveform envelope (inside the chip). Setting a higher Release won't close it either, but a higher Sustain than the current will close it, but still you need a few frames for that. The best would be if one of us wrote a little tool to show the ADSR reaction. I've used different methods in the past to handle "hard restart", even a method that the first Sidplay couldn't handle. I think this was by setting a higher Sustain instead of using Release, that wasn't emulated by Sidplay. This led to the "hard restart" snuffling (if that's the word for it?). |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Which tune are you referring to, Geir? I'd like to hear how your "snuffling" sounds. ;-) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: Which tune are you referring to, Geir? I'd like to hear how your "snuffling" sounds. ;-)
Hi Steppe. Mostly all tunes from 1990/1991. You could try famestyle.sid, melodious.sid etc.. I clearly remember Two Divided by Zero, cover by Trond Lindanger (IQ64). Also the sounds get cut off on tie-notes because of the ADSR trick. Hmm. famestyle.sid even has some bugs around 1:02 in the Filter (bad rip?) with Sidplay2/w |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Okay. I found versions from 1997-2002, and they bug. A good test tune is Two divided by Zero. Didn't like the Sidplay that much because of this in the past. Well, I achived to have written something that an emulator couldn't handle for quite some years. Hehe. :-) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
@Geir: yeah.. sorry.. I was referring to Sustain of course. (..and yes, of course the testbit doesn't affect the ADSR per se, but many people still use it for similar purposes... ...as you already also know, of course. :)
What do you mean with "snuffling"? Didn't quite get that.
Regarding hard restart, Cadaver wrote a nice text about some aspects of this in that HVSC celebration mag/demo that was released just one or a few years ago. Someone should convert that into text and put it on Codebase. :) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: Hard restart: it seems we cannot say with 100% certainty who did it first.. Laxity informed me that JCH got help to do it from him, and that he himself peeked, maybe at Bjerregaards player..
So, who did it, remains a mystery.
I don't want to spread incorrect info, and there's a portion of uncertainty to this statement. I'm pretty sure that this is a thing we (JCH and I) discussed back in the days and that I told him that I found this technique in some other driver. It's so long ago that I can't be sure what came first - the hen or the egg.. :) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
By the way; Another line of achievements that may be relevant to a time line may be the emulation stuff. In itself, emulating the SID doesn't have much to do with the real SID of course, but I am rather referring to the type of research and insights into the detailed workings of the (real) SID that the emu-stuff has resulted in. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: By the way; Another line of achievements that may be relevant to a time line may be the emulation stuff. In itself, emulating the SID doesn't have much to do with the real SID of course, but I am rather referring to the type of research and insights into the detailed workings of the (real) SID that the emu-stuff has resulted in.
1990:
1) PHS codes "The Galway Show" sidplayer on Amiga, released in a demo coded by Red Sector (I think?)
1991:
1) PHS and Il Sturo release "The 100 Most Remembered C64 Tunes", an amiga demo with 100 sidtunes.
2) PHS and Il Sturo release PlaySID 1.0 on amiga.
1992:
1) PHS and Il Sturo release PlaySID 2.0b on amiga.
2) Michael Schwendt release SIDPLAY on PC.
1993:
1) PHS and Il Sturo release PlaySID 3 on amiga.
2) Michael Schwendt now upgrades SIDPLAY on pc so regular that there is a new version every month, until 1997.
1996:
1) PHS/CCS releases CCS64, a C64 emulator for PC, it has the playSID routines included, and at this point is the ruling C64 emulator, for many years, until the VICE project gets up to standards.
2000: ??? (i cant remember the year)
1) Simon White releases SIDPLAY 2 (cycle accurate)
The SID filter routines are the ones being changed with every update of SIDPLAY 1/2, and..
2008:
1) The work by Alankila, concerning the SID filter emulation, is included in VICE emulator, and SIDPLAY 2 windows.
Alankila's work is based on microscope peekings and more or less complete disassembly of real SID chips.
Another guy, Kevtris, is working on a complete physical rebuild of the SID chip. (microscopes, oscilloscopes, soldering stuff)
This was just the main things that happened, concerning SID emulation.. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11090 |
you forgot the very first (non c64) demo with sidmusic (YO! by future crew) |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
Quote: you forgot the very first (non c64) demo with sidmusic (YO! by future crew)
I thought they were only covers of Whittaker's songs played thru the pc speaker, not actual sids. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11090 |
*afaik* they are actually (poorly) emulated. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
Quote: *afaik* they are actually (poorly) emulated.
unpacked yo.exe, no sidfile or 6502 code in it. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11090 |
ah, ok then :) |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
The only pc production I know that uses an actual sid file and a simple emulation is turrican32k by farbrausch, I know about it because I've ripped it and sent to HVSC some year ago =)
Turrican 32k
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11090 |
btw while we are at: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=3762 features actual (kinda poor =P) sid emulation too :) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Well, that stuff may be relevant too. I was, however, rather thinking of particular findings about the detailed workings of the SID, such as the one referred to here, which consists in the documentation of a slight difference between the 6581 and the 8580:
http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:detecting_sid_type_-_saf..
Then again, this sort of details are perhaps not really considered "breakthroughs" or "milestones"... |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
First demo to detect 6581/8580 was 2nd Reality C64 version |
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
Quote: First demo to detect 6581/8580 was 2nd Reality C64 version
At least mathematica did it ~2 years before that, and I don't think it was the first either |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
@Rambo: Dunno if that is what you meant, but I wasn't referring to "SID detection", but to the documentation of a difference between the chips. (But sid detection is relevant in itself too, of course.) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
I think 'documentation' for differences in 6581/8580 were made by Michael Schwendt, as he optimized SIDPLAY for both chips, around 1996-97. However, this documentation is written down nowhere in public.. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11090 |
i am pretty sure there existed documentation in some form long before 1996, atleast basic stuff like the new mixed waveforms and different filter characteristics, i remember reading about it in some mags etc. |
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
@jeff: what do you mean with soft restart?
@tlr: oO0! thanks for that Musix81-link, great stuff. got anything more like that? : )
@frantic: yeah, emulation research has lead to increased SID-knowledge, and it's definitely interesting. but has it affected music software? |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
@goto: Well, at least I am making use of the just mentioned sid detection in my code. :) ...and I had a look in the c sources of "resid" a number of years ago in order to better understand the ADSR bug (assuming resid is somewhat accurate in its modeling of the sid), which has at least indirectly influenced decisions in coding for me.. Also, I've been using facts read on mr sids old homepage about waveforms and such in some unreleased piece of weird sid-code, and so on... Even though it may sometimes be hard to point to code which is "caused" directly by such research knowledge, it is definitely part of the stock of knowledge in the back of the head of sid coders today, I'd say... |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 421 |
Could add first 2 channel sid samples with variable play speed, either Netherworld by YIP or some MON tune perhaps?
Also Pollytracker by Aleksi Eeben deserves to be mentioned as a true 4 chan tracker in c-64. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: Could add first 2 channel sid samples with variable play speed, either Netherworld by YIP or some MON tune perhaps?
Also Pollytracker by Aleksi Eeben deserves to be mentioned as a true 4 chan tracker in c-64.
/MUSICIANS/B/Banana/IBM_Music_22.sid
first 2 chn samples, variable speed it sounds like too |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
@Goto80: Well, just like a hard restart gives a hard start of the sound, you can do a soft restart that makes the sound more sloppy from start...
a standard hard restart ADSR value could be FF00
a soft one could be FF06... simply play around with the ADSR of the restart.
:-) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quote: @Goto80: Well, just like a hard restart gives a hard start of the sound, you can do a soft restart that makes the sound more sloppy from start...
a standard hard restart ADSR value could be FF00
a soft one could be FF06... simply play around with the ADSR of the restart.
:-)
jeffy, i owe you a little blow! i always used 0ff0. your setting seems to be better ;) and hard/soft hardrestart also works ;) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
@Jammer: no worries :-) I noticed the soft restart thing in several Charles Deenen tunes, which might be a bit different, but it opened my eyes to the softer restarts atleast.
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JCH
Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 193 |
Quote: Hard restart: it seems we cannot say with 100% certainty who did it first.. Laxity informed me that JCH got help to do it from him, and that he himself peeked, maybe at Bjerregaards player..
So, who did it, remains a mystery.
I seem to remember JO telling me how hard restart worked, not Laxity. Also seem to remember Laxity telling me back then that he figured it out by peeking in Hubbard's player.
But being so many years later, I might be wrong. =)
One thing I do remember was that Jozz discovered "test-bit noise" on a C64 at my place, but what is hazy is whether it was after listening to another C64 tune that had something similar in it - I think it was, but I'm not sure.
When I made the "Game Over" and "Get Ready" ring modulation speech effect, I had no inspiration from anywhere at all. I was just curious to hear if it could be done. |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: I seem to remember JO telling me how hard restart worked, not Laxity. Also seem to remember Laxity telling me back then that he figured it out by peeking in Hubbard's player.
But being so many years later, I might be wrong. =)
One thing I do remember was that Jozz discovered "test-bit noise" on a C64 at my place, but what is hazy is whether it was after listening to another C64 tune that had something similar in it - I think it was, but I'm not sure.
When I made the "Game Over" and "Get Ready" ring modulation speech effect, I had no inspiration from anywhere at all. I was just curious to hear if it could be done.
Didn't Maniacs of Noise release tunes with Hard Restart before JCH and Laxity ? I can clearly remember that... But Hubbard released tunes with Hard Restart even before Maniacs Of Noise... So what's the point of this timeline discussion ? |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Yeah, it all boils down to "Hubbard is god, he created the sound and code. On the 7th day he rested and saw that it was good". |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: Yeah, it all boils down to "Hubbard is god, he created the sound and code. On the 7th day he rested and saw that it was good".
And Paul Norman's Forbidden Forest music had Hard Restart before Rob Hubbard... and that's 1983 ! ;) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
please, all, go back and read my limited timeline post earlier, and fill in some more years or detail with other info, if you have any. (im collecting an article) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Geir: hmm.. what subtune of forbidden forrest has hardrestart? By looking at the output in sidplay on mac it seemed like gate was even on all the time? Perhaps I missed something here... |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: Geir: hmm.. what subtune of forbidden forrest has hardrestart? By looking at the output in sidplay on mac it seemed like gate was even on all the time? Perhaps I missed something here...
In parts of all the tunes. He uses zero in release on instruments, and clears gate to make a harder attack in parts of the tunes. That's just the same as a coded hard attack routine. Check subtune 4 and 7 especially. |
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
For those interested, I just started a wiki on 'soundchip hacking' here: http://8bitcollective.com/wiki/index.php/Soundchip_Hacking
Feel free to add, edit, link, blink, donk, beep!
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pvcf
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 18 |
@jan harries
Quote:First demo to detect 6581/8580 was 2nd Reality C64 version
no, the frist was in mathematica 1995
(Mathematica)
KB/Tom/Rfx have found out in summer95 that a register looses his data faster. i meeted this time quiss in munich, and KB came over with this "bug". later, zorc and I've diskussed that, tested it at a bunch of different sid chips (only one time on felidaes c128 the routine was wrong, at 9 of 10 chips he got correct results) and decided to be the first group who uses this and i have made two versions of the first song.
(together with the first floppydisc side detection :) )
regarding to our experience with the failed c128 sid detection (it was a old sid chip) we setted the possibility to ovveride our automatic detection in the beginning of the trackmo.
@groepaz
Quote:i am pretty sure there existed documentation in some form long before 1996, atleast basic stuff like the new mixed waveforms and different filter characteristics, i remember reading about it in some mags etc.
the problem is not that we not all knowed the differences, the problem was, how to find it out technically, not trough listen and hearing what you got out ;)
i seriously thought about sampling the 31' waveforms to find out if it is a new or old sid.
the task for finding the model was born by my heavily used filter and waveforms which are not known by the old sid, so we searched for an solution.
thats why we came up with the idea to make a sid detection.
Quote:Could add first 2 channel sid samples with variable play speed, either Netherworld by YIP or some MON tune perhaps?
this was definitivly invented by ReflexTracker
Reflex-Tracker V1.1
the first song (made by me in assembler...) was the digi endpart of cafe odd in 1993
Café Odd
the tracker was build one year later, because i needed some time to design the interface and zorc programmed that tool nicely :)
i know that because i have had have a very harsh disussion with syndrom/tia in spring93 about digis and the possibility to set volumes for samples. he claimed it would be absolute impossible.
later i meet ZORC/RFX and we discussed that problem and zorc programmed a digi-playroutine which was able to set volumes for samples (oh, and have a second channel, hehe).
btw, it was NOT the first 2 channel digiroutine, and it was NOT the first digi-volume routine.
it was the first which could all things together:
-2 channels
-4 volumes
-different AND variable play speeds of both channels each
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Turbo Outrun has digi volume, or so it sounds.. (tom toms in the beginning, and in some breaks)
About who invented arpeggio, Martin Galway told me he is sure he was the one, namely with Kong Strikes Back.
It's also the first i remember.. |
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McMeatLoaf
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 105 |
Quote: Turbo Outrun has digi volume, or so it sounds.. (tom toms in the beginning, and in some breaks)
About who invented arpeggio, Martin Galway told me he is sure he was the one, namely with Kong Strikes Back.
It's also the first i remember..
Some tunes by Bob Landwehr (the P.A.S.S. demos) use arpeggios, and they're also from around 1984.
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Yeah, so when we format this thread into an article for VN mag (which i was asked to do), we have to mention both Landwehr and Galway. Kong Strikes Back is made in 1984 but the game is released in 1985.. |
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McMeatLoaf
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 105 |
Regarding pulse-width, when were the first tunes made that utilized pulse-width-modulation? The earliest examples that I can find are from 1983 (several). |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Mcloaf: dont ask.. investigate! :D |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
@Jan: Yes.. The music routine in Turbo Outrun has two different digi volumes to chose from. Something like full volume and half volume, or so. At least that is how I remember it from when I had a peek into that routine some day quite a while a go. It might have been 100%, 50%, and 25% too. In any case, the volume change was achieved by some simple shifting/division by 2 and so forth. No scaling or more sophisticated sorts. The routine in Outrun Europe was similar, but that came after of course. |
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McMeatLoaf
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 105 |
Quote: Mcloaf: dont ask.. investigate! :D
GAMES/A-F/Artillery_Duel.sid #2
MUSICIANS/G/Gibson_Tony/Jammin.sid
MUSICIANS/W/Whittaker_David/Punchy.sid
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Nice mcloaf.
but i dont think we will be able to finish such an article sum it up, for the next VN mag.
at least, i simply have very limited time atm.
i think its a project to do after the X party, and finish before new year eve.
as we go deeper, more and more pop up, so if it should be made properly, it should be done over a longer period.
if you just use this thread as a wall to dump all found info into, thats good - more will pop up before we try to form a usable document from it all. |
