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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Games in demo-quality?
Does anybody know games in demo quality?
Shouldn't it possible to create simple puzzle games that reach the demo-level?
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Do you mean games in FLI etc. graphics modes, or what? If not, personally I think the post-1990 emphasis of graphics/sound presentation while not giving a shit of playability, especially in all those puzzle games, gets old fast, but maybe you haven't seen/played enough of those yet :) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
No, I haven't seen any games in demo quality, i.e. that fully uses what can be done graphically on the C64. Usually games require more "AI" than demos, and have to be more flexible, and therefore have to compromise a bit on the VIC trickery and code optimization.
But I have a few ideas, which I doubt will ever be realised though.
One of them is a horizontally scrolling platformer with 2nd line FLI, that allows 8 sprites/line, which could be multiplexed and used both for moveable objects and background enhancements. I have figured everything out in theory (I think) but I guess there might pop up a few practical problems during implementation.
Another possiblility could be the same, just with still backgrounds. This would free the sprite that would have to be used for covering the FLI bug when scrolling, and make it possible to multiplex sprites more efficiently. The gameplay will probably be worse than if it scrolled, but it would be optimized for pretty screenshots. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Though, there are also lots of demos (even recent) that do not use full C64 graphical processing power. Or maybe they're not demos? :) |
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Clarence
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 119 |
I consider PD64, a demo quality game, many little VIC and timing tricks combined in it:
Pinball Dreams C64 Preview
(even if it's still 'just' a preview)
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
@cadaver: No they are not. If they don't contain coderpr0n, they are not demos, but art. :-) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Grubz would also probably qualify then. But would any AGSP/VSP scrolling game with fairly good graphics & sound qualify? :) |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 466 |
Hmm, at least there have been some demogroups that tried to create games...
Nipson comes in mind with "Rigor"; no really big VIC-trix here, but some decent animations during gameplay (the 3d tunnel). Unfortunatly this game was never finished, but the preview it's worth a look.
Taboo planned a game called "Zone of Darkness" iirc. Also just a preview has been done, with some nice spriteusage (the car). But no coderpr0n either :(
On some GameOn the game "Clystron" was released (don't know the team behind the game). The title screen is a full AFLI-Pic, but that's all concerning deep VIC-trickery; also here no such trix during gameplay!
Some multispeed tunes here and there, but also nothing which took a steady place in my mind.
@Cruzer: so how can we motivate you to transform your ideas into "up-to-date-shootemup's" ;)) |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 404 |
"Are there any apples which do have the same quality than pears?" :) |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 466 |
@Ninja: don't think games and demos are that far away from each other. It's more like "Does this apple taste as good as that applejuice" ;) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Games like "Another World" use VSP for scrolling. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702 |
Creatures, Mayhem in monsterland=VSP scrolling
5th gear, Armalyte (title sprite multiplexing, etc) 5th gear being in the border. Surprisingly enough, no games (commercial that displayed anything in the side borders (even if it was just the score panel etc)
IK+, Mega apocalypse, exploding fist (eg. ingame digi's without pause, etc)
Wizball + tons of other games (top bottom border removal)
Iridis Alpha (Wierd effects) there was a hidden part somewhere which displayed a sprite multiplexer. looked good at the time i saw it.
Flimbo's quest, Hawkeye, Dragons lair 2 (Tape loader. Dragons lair loads while playing the previous part)
5th gear.. (Line crunching???) screen scrolls vertically
Phobia. Good example here. color switching, VSP, sprite multiplexing, top/bottom border removal.
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 404 |
Aww, come on. "demo quality" alone is no term. 64er had lots of puzzlers with FLI and music from sceners. But they get boring easily, demo quality? Does using sideborders qualify? Or an 8x8-plasma in the intro? First of all, which demos do have demo quality? |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702 |
Yea true.. Games utilising some of the features/effects that were originally seen in demo's or as many as possible (eg sideborder, vsp, multiplexing, etc) in the actual game would be a better wording (and that excludes intro, etc)
It could still be 'phobia' which utilises as many as possible ingame in one section (VSP, Sprite multiplexing, Color switching, border removal, etc)
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
But you don't know if that's what Nata meant. Probably not, as he's talking as if there are no such games yet. If I remember right, Phobia has quite heinous multiplexer bugs (like almost all games with multiplexer), which no self-respecting democoder would like to have :)
To be honest though, my gut feeling is that if you have to be paranoid about plexer bugs and other correctness, or have a CPU-consuming & timing-unforgiving graphics mode, it's hard to get a kick-ass game done. Something like Turrican or Enforcer feels almost like it's proud to present so much action that the C64 can't reasonably cope :) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
If "demo quality" means "good code" there are a lot of games which fit here. It's only that games are not made to show off the code so people might not always notice it :) |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
In games, you need to dedicate many resources to things which usually don't belong to demos (enemy AI, collision routines, text, maps, score/life counter, etcetc.) so demo parts inevitably can "do more" than games. Hence, I don't think you'll ever have "demo-quality" in games because demos can always get more out of what little resources our lovely c64 has available. Demo parts have the luxury to be more specialised.
I do agree that games can have similar "code-quality", though. If a game with good enemy AI, collision routines, text, maps, score/life counters, etcetc. is made, breaking c64 resources every frame, then the developers achieved a "code-quality" as high as that of a tweaked demo part. |
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trident
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 74 |
Elite had vektors... |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Maybe we'd need a new, more precalculated Elite? :) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Elite was great but I think the vectors from Mercenary are nicer. They fit the C64 calculation power more :) |
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Stan
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 187 |
Soul Crystal
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
We need Elite with filled vector, in Unicorn quality, just with more colors. And it should of course be called "1337". |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Elite with filled vectors? No problem, buy an Amiga 500 :) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
Yeah SoulCrystal indeed.
The last game I bought back then :)
Awesome Titlestuff and well done too.
Creatures2 as well I think.
I think its not very surprising to not have tons of games with open sideborders :)
And I think Turrican2 & Co sure have better optimized code for speed AND size than quite some demos do - so what?
Btw, nice Titlescreen in T2. The wave/mirrored text...
Uh, and Lemmings of course.
As of FLI - I agree, that was a true flood in the early 90s. I never liked that puzzle stuff though.
Afaik 5th gear uses plain vertical softscroll.
The Lucasfilm games (not the adv) like Fractulus and so on used rather advanced tricky gfx.
And to me 'the sentinel' looked like a odd demopart too at first :)
And sometimes even bad looking games have surprisingly tricky code (I assume :) since at least I didnt get how some stuff was done when I saw it)
Mhh... Also check the Oneder-game :) |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
C64 games which really struck me back then and thus deserve to be mentioned (some were mentioned before, but oh well):
Mega Apocalypse Deluxe: cool gfx, gorgeous music, addictive-and-smooth-as-hell gameplay and ingame samples. And a single load! Wow! I sometimes get it out to kill a few minutes.
International Karate+: same arguments as for MAD.
Last Ninja series: Gorgeous, relatively fast drawn backdrops, smooth animations, killer soundtracks and great puzzle/combat elements
Another World: Remember that one? 16 colour scroller, gorgeous graphics, fun game, warping, just lovely (btw, Gamespot lists its release date as 1985 - hahahah :)
Trailblazer 2: Coders might not consider this technically advanced, but I love the superfast pseudo-3D. Oh, and the game is addictive as hell, so the pseudo-3D is more than forgiven. Music = top.
The Cybernoids: loads of particles, fun gameplay, and killer sound.
Bangkok knights: Forgetting the enormous sprites, superdope music, cool opponents and fun gameplay, remember that chick showing the current round while strutting her stuff? Oh yeah. I'd say that's a good demopart right there ;)
Mayhem in Monsterland: the closest thing the c64 ever had to Sonic the Hedgehog. Brilliant use of colour, ultrafast scrolling and a really, really enjoyable game to boot... Rowlands Bros always pushed the c64 to the limit as far as games were concerned.
Armalyte: Goddamn yeah. That game still gives me shivers. Long ago, I could complete it with one life, today, I barely remember the first level :). I do remember the soundtrack - every note of it. Walker's best work on c64, no doubt about it.
Leaderboard: Best. C64. Golf. Sim. Ever.
Turrican 3: well, read the review on c64.sk :)
Covergirl Strippoker: Ladies getting nekkid in some sort of high res while divine JCH-player tunes are playing? *And* they crammed a full poker simulator in it as well? Demopart! ;)
Quix: whoever made this was trying to enter a new frontier in line drawing and surface filling ;) Addictive as hell though.
Fred's Back series: Love this platform series by the Sommer bros. 16 colour scrolling in 8 directions, lots of sprites, really cool game to play. They also made an attractive 16-colour scroller "space invaders" shooter called Moons.
Hermetic: Great shooter, big end bosses, lots of fun to play, if only for DRAX's soundtrack.
Stunt Car Racer: A real 3D race game with a believable feeling of speed on a c64? Well I never! |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
stunt car racer is quite funny :) what a pity that computer players have solid driving path so you can't change thair trajetory by hitting etc ;-)
anyway PC version of this game is just exactly like that one from C64! even screen-update-rate is the same :)
only menus are a bit more advanced and each opponent has got his icon... STC is still great if you consider how much 3d stuff is here and it all fits in memory at once.
I have never seen Amiga version though, many years ago a female friend of mine used to tell me how it looks hehe ;-) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
stunt car racer: isn't it possible to increase screen update rate?
This would rock! (Amiga version is quite smooth.)
Btw: What I mean with "demo quality": it should use the same visual effects (not oldskool effects) like in demos. |
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Nightlord
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
I think Emlyn H Soccer was a more than a demo-quality game. I fact there are very few demo coders who could code the shot direction+speed control code so smoothly and responsively even today.
Also I think Supremacy has some great coding |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
feels like Lemon here. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: feels like Lemon here.
What a horrible thought... |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Now let's go requesting gamedesigners, coders and artists for demo-quality games at the lemon64 scene forum. :)
Btw. thinking of what nightlord wrote, maybe Crush is a demo-quality Katakis (I mean, things like non-shooting bosses. There's already 64 bullets with 50 fps collision checking, so what more you dare to expect? Challenge? Shame on you.) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Aren't there any games that combine pixel graphic with filled vectors? F.ex the end-boss consists of vectors ... everything else are pixel/sprites etc.
Btw. Leaderboard Golf: Looks very nice. Good soundeffects, good animations.
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting Cruzerplatformer with 2nd line FLI, that allows 8 sprites/line, which could be multiplexed and used both for moveable objects and background enhancements 12 years later, it's slowly starting to take shape. :)
https://youtu.be/o-LUZk369qI |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
hats down, thats super nice both technically and graphically, and I could never code it, but I dont think a good/nice platformer really needs fli. look at mayhem or sam :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Cruzer, OMFG :O |
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Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 421 |
Cruzer, post the effing .prg FFS! :) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2060 |
on topic: To me a game which sticks to my memory rather as a good demo than a game mostly sucks as a game. There is unfortunately(!) quite a bunch of which I wish they were a little more in game-quality.
Last V8 (unplayable but nice)
Hawkeye (soso as a game but really nice)
many (not all though) Ocean film releases
@Cruzer: This one looks greeeaaat! |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Quote: hats down, thats super nice both technically and graphically, and I could never code it, but I dont think a good/nice platformer really needs fli. look at mayhem or sam :)
Seeing as this treatments seems to make scrolling impossible, I think it would be best for a single screen platformer. Think Bubble Bobble, Snow Bros, and the like. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting ptoingSeeing as this treatments seems to make scrolling impossible
I guess FLI + VSP is doable ;)
Speaking of Hawkeye, Rubicon, Genloc and Flimbo's Quest - most impressive examples of big and elaborate 2nd plane in parallax screen. I still cannot figure out how char pointers are assigned to fit everything in charset. Mindblown! |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1377 |
Hey, I quite enjoyed Hawkeye. But then, I really liked Rubicon too (one of the few games I actually completed back in the day).
Scrolling FLI is sort of doable, but yeah, horizontally and you'd lose a sprite to covering the bug area, and any direction you lose most of your CPU time to display, so even with AGSP you're pushing it to have enough time left to update the edges, never mind running a sprite multiplexer and game logic as well. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
@Oswald: Ok, I'll change it to char mode then. ;)
And yes, FLI + VSP is not impossible, but the sprite multiplexing is already some of the most advanced code I've ever done, so probably impractical. Plus you have to deal with all the VSP haters. ;) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
something like spikey in transylvania would rule using this tech :) the graphical richness could pay off in such a world. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Nooo, those FLI candybar platforms rule! ;(
Speaking of aforementioned Lemmings - I believe characters can be actually sprite based - sprite multiplexer and clever dynamic horizontal distribution of sprites in each row should do the trick. Some flickering is probably unavoidable but, still, C64 deserves full fledged edition :D |
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 145 |
Quote: @Oswald: Ok, I'll change it to char mode then. ;)
And yes, FLI + VSP is not impossible, but the sprite multiplexing is already some of the most advanced code I've ever done, so probably impractical. Plus you have to deal with all the VSP haters. ;)
Great work Cruzer !
What parts of screen are sprites ? |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
These parts:
 |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
aha, thats why I couldnt decide if its hires or multicolor :) very clever. the sprites add much more currenty than the fli itself. |
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Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 421 |
It's such a demopart Cruzer. I can't believe you've "wasted" all these sprites to ONLY mask off the artifacts :D |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
wow! really cool, congratz! also the minirobotbugjumpingthing is very cute! |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
@Oswald: Yeah, I'm also trying not to overuse the FLI and be like "look at all these colors I can have everywhere." I think the result will be better if I only use it where there's actually a need for a lot of colors closely together. Could I have gotten a good result with only bitmap and sprites? Probably, but that would have been too easy and therefore not motivating. :)
@Digger: But mostly they aren't wasted at the lines where enemies will appear, i.e. on top of platforms. So if the multiplexer works as I hope, it will be possible to have both.
@Jammer: Yes, the C64 definitely deserves a full version of Lemmings, or at least a fullscreen version. A combo of sprites and bobs would probably be the best solution. I would also cap the number of lemmings at a number where the C64 could keep up, as well as designing the levels to make sure they were spread out over as much Y-area as possible to optimize multiplexing. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
multiplexed lemmings? nah, there can be easily more than 8 in a row. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1377 |
Ah, very nice sprite usage on those rounded background elements.
Oswald: I'm assuming the sprite lemmings are just to take some of the load off the BOB lemmings.
I've used a mix of sprites and bobs for an as yet unreleased demo part, but in my case there were only a few instances of too many sprites on one line that I needed to deal with. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting Oswaldmultiplexed lemmings? nah, there can be easily more than 8 in a row.
You didn't get the idea obviously? Figuring out densest lemming crowds, grouping them, placing sprites there and writing data into sprites on the fly ;) Hence dynamic placed sprites are only matrix for lemmings' bobs ;) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: Quoting Oswaldmultiplexed lemmings? nah, there can be easily more than 8 in a row.
You didn't get the idea obviously? Figuring out densest lemming crowds, grouping them, placing sprites there and writing data into sprites on the fly ;) Hence dynamic placed sprites are only matrix for lemmings' bobs ;)
ah, that sounds neat, with clever level design the sprite layout could be even fixed. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Sure, in many cases layout could be fixed, but given destructible nature of levels, it's safer to manipulate x-pos, I assume (but all those mappings, euw...) :) |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
Some c-64 game makers have done impressive job in cramming a lot of content into a small space. For instance Elite had all this generated content. Then there were all these games with smooth animations that are in memory in some compressed form while one frame is being drawn. Not necessarily VIC hacking, but certainly the coders attitude has been to overcome platform limitations as with demos. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1377 |
Quoting Jammer Figuring out densest lemming crowds, grouping them, placing sprites there and writing data into sprites on the fly ;) Hence dynamic placed sprites are only matrix for lemmings' bobs ;)
Ah, nice. I missed that too.
I do think Oswald is right in that once you're relying on level design to ensure you can always manage sprite coverage, it should then be possible to precompute the sprite positions - unless of course you're just using the level design to "discourage" flickering. |
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Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 421 |
Unlimited Bobs Lemmings! |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
One drawback is that levels are most probably gonna end up bitmap based but VSP to the rescue again, right? xD |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1377 |
Quoting JammerOne drawback is that levels are most probably gonna end up bitmap based but VSP to the rescue again, right? xD
Haha probably. Though, I guess you could plot into four charsets instead and scroll by updating the character indices.
I had a thought about the lemmings themselves earlier too - if there are too many on a given row to be covered by eight unexpanded sprites, you could always X-expand them, temporarily halving resolution. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting ChristopherJamThough, I guess you could plot into four charsets instead and scroll by updating the character indices.
Would be cool but I assume every char has to be unique for destruction to work correctly ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11107 |
this thread would get so many even better ideas on lemon =P |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: Quoting ChristopherJamThough, I guess you could plot into four charsets instead and scroll by updating the character indices.
Would be cool but I assume every char has to be unique for destruction to work correctly ;)
every char can be unique, only you simulate bitmap with 4 charsets, every char displayed once and only once. when you scroll you only have to move ~1000 byte.
6rows*40 bytes = 240 = 1 charset, 6*4 charset = 24 rows. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting Oswaldevery char can be unique, only you simulate bitmap with 4 charsets, every char displayed once and only once. when you scroll you only have to move ~1000 byte.
6rows*40 bytes = 240 = 1 charset, 6*4 charset = 24 rows.
Ok, but those are unique chars for one screen. What about portions of levels outside it? Those 4 charsets are to my understanding sort of current visible data buffer. Hence I'd still have to copy data during scroll from outside chars where unique changes occur. My brain melts here. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1377 |
Quoting Jammer Hence I'd still have to copy data during scroll from outside chars where unique changes occur.
Well, yes - but that's exactly the same as would occur in bitmap mode.
At this point I suspect it would be helpful to have seperate terms for charset-meaning-level-data from charset-meaning-c64-hardware-feature.
Perhaps we should just call the former "tiles"? |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2060 |
though it has nothing to do with topic, mixer nailed it :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: Quoting Oswaldevery char can be unique, only you simulate bitmap with 4 charsets, every char displayed once and only once. when you scroll you only have to move ~1000 byte.
6rows*40 bytes = 240 = 1 charset, 6*4 charset = 24 rows.
Ok, but those are unique chars for one screen. What about portions of levels outside it? Those 4 charsets are to my understanding sort of current visible data buffer. Hence I'd still have to copy data during scroll from outside chars where unique changes occur. My brain melts here.
charset works exactly as bitmap in this case, only a virtual one. you *dont* reuse characters, they are simply used to only have to scroll 1000 bytes instead of 8000, and to display whats inside them. essentially you have a bitmap in char mode, in a different layout.
so when you scroll you have to update the new columns as with bitmaps. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11107 |
that would become really messy for a real game though. and slow too.
for demo things this is a nice solution though sometimes :) |
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AlexC
Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 293 |
Speaking about Nipson Rigor game, can someone upload copy of original preview please? |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 466 |
[shortly going off-topic in favor of a reply to AlexC]
Just updated the entry for Rigor Preview. Unfortunatly I do not own any original of that game preview but at least I've found an old excess release disk containing a "cracked" version. Hope it's ok to have that version added to the entry as dl.
[ending off-topic answer mode] |
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Romppainen
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 40 |
Excess crack is already in the database and have its own entry. |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 466 |
Oh well, oh well. Sorry, somehow I was caught in a "nobody-has-it-and-it's-still-missing-on-csdb"-tunnel.
Will check what's already there more thoroughly next time;) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Must admit that Rigor Preview is very impressive and ambitious project. I guessed right it's going to be variation on Microcosm (hinted by info about cleverly used animation). Still, not very playable due to low resolution of controls and little clarity of onscreen action. |
