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2010-03-04 21:31

v3to

Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 150

Art vs Craft

Hey c64 sceners.

I was wondering about a tradition in pixel graphics which is not exactly known for its popularity. In general pics which are 1:1 reproductions of photos or art, maybe pixelled or processed scans. Some artists are truly strong at this. Think of Carrions Oldschool Pixels, especially DeeKays hidden gfx, Danes portraits or many works by Leon and Rayden. The results are often awesome to look at and likely most suitable for an objective quality comparison.

Speaking for myself I have deep respect for the effort and I would like to show much more of this stuff on c64pixels. But I remember this dispute on Leons violin. What is the value of a release which concentrates on pure technical excellence?

On c64pixels I use the code A/ for artist, but IMO this spec is a bit vague and irritating for tasks which feels more like craft (similar to sculptors, plasterers or photographers). Any suggestions for a proper definition without debasing creators or their works?

Please note that I am not talking about common wired gfx. Topic are high quality pics which have been developed by people who really know how to set proper pixels.

2010-03-04 22:28

Twoflower

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434

I don't believe there is a "vs". I believe there is an "&".

I have a deep admiration for people that can push out 1:1 reproductions, an even bigger admiration for people that have done it in a personal way (hi Hein!) and the biggest for the ones who have made their images from scratch.

As with all "other" art nowadays I believe you have to view pixel-art in the context it was made. Making 1:1 copies in 1993 or even 1997 was a completely different thing than doing it now. With the tools and the experience we have now, something sure needs to be added if you intend to clone an existing image which isn't yours - a concept, a very personal touch or whatever you feel fitting - but there needs to be something. Back in the nineties things were different. I vote to add the 1:1's. Atleast the old ones.

2010-03-04 22:55

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11110

yes. add those pegasus pictures already =D

2010-03-04 22:58

PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 269

Some of the most respected artists on the commodore scene comes from a time where scanners were for the elite, the ones that were working with this. For me, even in 1991-2 when I did the angel picture for the last part in emotional breakdown I painted the woman on a paper grid I created to fit the char res of the c64 and then used that to repaint the outline on the commy in zoomatic by olav... then I shaded the whole thing from mind and also just staring at a ref image in a book. I think that image is a very good one even today and it shows talent and devotion to do it proper, but it is not my creation in a way. Even when I presented the main element in a total different light and scene condition from all the other replicas of the valeio image on different platforms, it is also very different from valeios image in this way, a total different image than the one on the has to be inspiration one or the other way yes album art looking platform rocks or shapes or idea... he he....

A lot of the worlds best illustrators animators and 3d artists and so on use ref images and alter or create a replica put in another contex, in the ad agency world where I work there are not that many really original creations that one might think there are. I know, because I see different stuff from different countries and the world is full of endles copies and the loop just gets bigger and bigger.

I often find myself wondering what is the right thing to do? Use ref images and create a better image than one might be able to do from pure creation from scratsh all by our selves... In a perfect world that would be cool, but the heaps of crap would be much more. I know a traditional painter that is known and respected but all his images are painted from photos he takes and then altered on the canvas... is this wrong or is this cooler? He is not all that good in anatomy and saves it by always using images or photos. I think he uses his skills in a professional way and therefor in the end deliver paintings that are much better than he really are in a way.

The limitations in let us say koala format, the format in my heart, is hard, one has to take things away or alter to get it good and in the end one ends up with a total redrawn image. Hammerfist is one of the best images on the c64 in my mind but it were not created by the c64 artist that we all love and respect... He created a perfect image on the c64 from a ref image, AND WE ALL LOVE IT!

If one looks at airbrush artists from the 1980s one sees who created from mind and who did it based on other work or refs... the last is far more better most of the times. This is also the same on the commodore I think...

For me the art on the commodore is more about showing something that fits in and look cool and are good handcrafted. If it is totally from mind and also fits, look cool and are good it is ofcourse better, but there are few of those I guess... we can never be sure what is the inspiration or source.

I think the problem is most valid when there are graphics releases in compos and as stand alone graphic releases and the artist try to give the impression that he created it purely on his own and HOPES for noone to spot or find it. That were the case with the violin for me, maybe it were all different for the artist creating that on the c64, but online I got that feeling and that is not that cool. I also tried to do a fast convert from the original and over to c64 in let us say one hour and the result were very good, but would have craved me for a full week of hard work to do it as good as the c64 release were in a way...

Life is quite simple, we experince stuff and our mind expands due to this, we are all influenced by something. There must be something that gets us going, what it is differs.

Remember that it also is more easy to nail a replica or reconstruct or alteration of an image than in music and code. In music we all know this as the best there ever were on this platform used elements from external sources a lot. Maybe those inspirations were the key elements for us loving it that much. In coding it is also the same, and in life in general it also applies.

I would say that a full photo copy converted image is less then a true original creation created only by one artist, by a long shot, but again that is so rear that often it is stranded because it is just a cool idea but not that great of an image to look at in a way. Some do pull it off and my hat off for them, but they are sure not many. Vanja is an artist that creates images within her pipeline that allow her to release fantastc art... she is very good in this way I think... maybe she also uses ref images a lot but to me she is one of those artists that really shine in creating her own images on this old computer that we love so much.

I have done hundreds of photoshop images for ads here in norway and I almost always use ref images and inspiration from others and in the end that is maybe the key to getting it good in the end for me.

I told vanja some time ago that I really do not like the way I draw and that I never got my own line in a way... So for me, call me lame, it is best to do good planning, get the inspiration needed and then create a good piece.

Your PAL

2010-03-05 00:00

saehn
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 44

Veto, I can appreciate what (I think) you're trying to accomplish, but I don't know that you can ever successfully do it in any kind of objective, impartial way. If you want to inform your audience of your perspectives on a piece, perhaps it would be better accomplished through editorial comments. After all, what you have is a kind of a gallery and you and your friends are curators of a sort.

I personally don't regard a copy with the same esteem I would apply to a completely abstracted piece, but (a) there are always exceptions and (b) I think that at times it would be very difficult to differentiate the categories.

2010-03-05 00:07

PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 269

Another example in real life production, let us say we wanted to create something that were inspired by something we have seen in a way... this is a side thing but it shows something about process. To do a great image or graphic piece or animation on the c64 there are also some steps ahead of the final result... ha ha...

The comment above were not pointed at veto in a bad way, just used that as an example as most great c64 artists do copy... Please do not make this into another violin case, it were only as an example from many great artists. I think Veto create very good c64 art... one of the better ones we have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-qLBXIX2Mk&feature=player_embed..

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