| |
Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
Does Interlace really suck ?
Back in 96 IFLI was all the hype, nobody really cared about the flickering if the picture was pixeled with a good technique.
Back in 96 Multicolor sized pixels were considered nice and not blocky, hires wasnt so overhyped.
and I think the shifting viewpoint to a great extent boils down to the wide used emulators. Everyone uses emulators today, and yes, interlace looks like shit in them, and multicolor pixels looks like huge square blocks in them.
Everyone should take some time and check the best laced pictures on a real thing with a real TV, and check multicolor / hires difference. I remember back in the time thinking that hires is actually to HIGH resolution, as a normal TV can hardly display such a pixels.
The lesson is: Interlace is only a flickering nightmare if not watched on TV, and multicolor pix has ugly big pixels only if not watched on a TV. |
|
... 71 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....
|
| |
Zaz
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 33 |
Turning on "Exact PAL emulation" in Vice really improves the appearance of IFLI pictures. |
| |
MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1065 |
I think laced stuff looks OK on my 1901 (separate Y/C), and if the artist spent some time minimizing the flicker it looks great. Still, you can't beat the nice, crisp pictures you get with UFLI. And yes, I know it's hell to work with :)
|
| |
Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
I have never tried IFLI and probably never will because I am sure I will suck at it.
Never did like interlace much but the skills of some working with IFLI are superb and thus excellent pictures do exist.
It is true that it looks a lot better on the real thing.
I´ve noticed that IFLI displayed in Vice has an irregular pause between the screens.
Haven´t checked if that´s also the case on a real C64.
And maybe it´s just me.
I don´t hope for a decrease in interlaced graphics.
But I want to see more UFLI! ;)
It´s not that time-consuming if you only use it for filling up your sketch! |
| |
Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Jailbird, nopes. I don't use a Y/C cable but i still can see every hires pixel. Using a composite cable produces quite a sharp pictures on some C64s and C128s, others have quite a blurry picture here (especially C128DCR).
Anyway, seeing the flickering is not exactly hard to do. It's 25 Hz and every human can see it very clear. Only old TV sets and bad monitors reduce the flickering because of their long-glowing phosphors, but a good (?) PAL monitor even shows flickering on 50 or 60 Hz. |
| |
Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
Graham, ofcourse you can see every hires pixel, even I can. I said that a TV can hardly display it. Just display a 1 hires pixel wide vertical line, and display a 8 pixel wide vertical line. You will see that the 1 pixel wide line is has light gray color and not white. Because of this I disliked hires wireframe vector stuff when I still watched stuff on TV. Also you did the PAL filter for Vice, so you should know that chessboard style dithering mixes like a dream, and on a real TV at most combinations you cannot even tell apart the original pixels that are intended to displayed. |
| |
Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
If you want white hires pixels, use Y/C cable. If you use composite there is a low-pass filter with a cut-off frequency around 4 MHz (depends on your monitor/TV) on Luminance which will make hires pixels darker. However, they are still hires...
Also, chessboard patterns in hires dont look ugly with an Y/C cable aswell. The colors blend perfectly, but the luma doesn't mix so you will still see the chessboard. |
| |
Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
Graham, we agree on those. However I've used the real thing 90% without Y/C cables, and I've written my previous post based on such experiences.
To let everyone know again: I opened this topic to make some justice for the flickering and non hires gfx's on c64. So if anyone wants to see them in full glory, then just _DONT_ use Vice. You wont get a 100% correct 50hz screen even on a 100hz monitor, and still not counting the blurnyness and afterglow of real TV sets. Pictures will look 10x better even with a monitor with a Y/C cable, but for best results use a composite cable :) |
| |
MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1065 |
It would be neat if you could set vice to do a 70/30 blend with the previous frame. It would lead to ghosting artifacts in some cases, but it would make laced graphics look much nicer.
|
| |
Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
What a great topic. I honestly didn't know any of this in 1996. Really. |
| |
DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quote:
1. The well proven 'Deekay-method of witch-hunting'.
- "Boooh! It's sooo easy to pixel in IFLI, and you probably wire too, because it's IFLI. And it flickers. FLI+Flickering+Hires is evil. XYZFLI+flickering+Hires and everything else isn't. Period."
These kind of reactions prove that they most likely don't have the fucking clue, never tried to pixel anything in IFLI or just trying to express their personal failure in pixelling IFLI.
Dude, what's your problem? Did i ever accuse you of wiring your stuff?
If you can't cope with the reality that IFLI is _the most perfect_ mode if you want to wire your stuff that's your problem, but don't give me that crybaby-bullshit, especially since i always told you how much i liked your work and never ever even _hinted_ you would just wire your stuff!
But still: i prefer your non-interlaced work to your interlaced work.
I HAVE worked IFLI, and i always hated it. I know all the tricks to reduce flickering, but the result will ALWAYS be a murky picture without details and flickering, because there's just no way you can completely get rid of it. For starters $d016 flickering will ALWAYS be there, you can not make a steady pixel in IFLI! black hires-outlines (cartoon-style)? Forget it in IFLI, will always flicker like hell!
I know some people prefer to pixel their stuff on the Amiga (like Cyclone), and for them IFLI is also the way to go. Well, too bad the same works for Photoshop-converted pictures, too.. But don't blame ME for that!
I know you all hate XYZFLI because it's tough to pixel in. But the fact remains: With UIFLI and SHIF _you_ choose just how much the picture flickers, because it already IS hires and there's no need to fake it via $d016! If you only want some extremely subtle flicker in some color-fades, do it! If you don't want any flicker at all, just use UFLI and SHF!
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the "Bigscreen-effect": On a beamer you just can not see any flicker, which gives an unfair advantage in Compos, because even the most horrible flickering pictures (think: alternating vertical columns of black/white) look just fine on the bigscreen!
It's not only unfair towards people working in non-interlaced modes, it's also unfair towards the people that make GOOD laced pics without much flickering! And there _are_ alot of good IFLI-pictures, like yours f.ex.!...
Besides: I think using non-blended screenshots for IFLI-pictures is misleading in the highest degree. It's unfair towards people like TCH that actually work in real hires and UFLI because the screenshots look the same, but the IFLIs are ofcourse much more colorful!
You can't even see how much it flickers using a blended screenshot already, so don't try to also fake murky details that just aren't there when viewing the picture on a real c64 - OR an emulator!
It does not matter how the picture looks like when you work on it in zoom-mode or on Amiga, that's not what is actually seen on the screen when displaying the picture! Where's the checkerboard pattern gone? Oh, right, we now have alternating flicker-lines for that! Hello? |
| Previous - 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 - Next |
