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Forums > C64 Coding > Pushing the envelope, Or stay beaten by a 16 YO kid!

2018-09-21 20:50

Nova

Registered: Jun 2012
Posts: 13

Pushing the envelope, Or stay beaten by a 16 YO kid!

I got abit nostalgic tonight and enjoyed some early ninetees
perfection by Flash inc, A little Light, Even Bob got in a few minutes of lalaland,Origo, byterapers, Upfront etc (Mathematica still gives me goosebumps)

It occured to me that todays elitegroups (according to me) like Oxyron,Booze,Plush,Chorus,Camelot started to emerge when us guys from the older school where just about done and our lives got in the way of the scener-life.

Back in those days everything was about squeezing every last cycle through perfecting a routine that many had made before you but if you got that last DXYCP char or those extra 10 (only in a Y sin,horrible) Plots you could reighn supreme for a few hours or even months or years before someone stole your glory and made a faster routine that often could be totaly outside the box and therefore superior.

Today everything seems to be about polished loader screens and perfect transitions between (again my opinion)"demoparts" that probably squeezes every last cycle, but who knows because there are just not 5000 fucking hungry young coders trying to make the same demopart, but just abit better.

I fell inlove with coding on the C64 because the hardware is set and everyone has the same precursors.

So, Here come the "hot potato",
Did "todays elite" choose a different path simply because
the "oldschool" effects just cannot be done faster within the hardware limitations, (sticking my chinn out here, punch it if you want to!)
Or since most of todays elite code for a living on other platforms but still cant write a faster routine then some pimplefaced 16 year old did two decades ago!!

I am not sure where i was going with this but i guess i just miss the old sceenerdays..
But it still seems strange that someone that can code bumpmapping and phongshaders on a C64 still cant write a faster dycproutine then some kid who sold the "moped" and bought a C64 two decades ago.

-WRAP!-

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2018-09-21 23:39

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11100

also Rocketry

2018-09-22 00:10

Nova

Registered: Jun 2012
Posts: 13

I guess you didnt understand the true meaning of this post,
Ofcourse there are brilliant demos still turning up in the "oldschool" changre.
the fact that timemachine was released about 20 years after
the previous recordholders released their version would kinda validate my point or would you not agree?

I saw timemachine for the first time in Gothenburg at datastorm and i can truly say that it is an exception from the spirit of this post.
(I also held your beer while you puked your guts out behind the party place Jackasser but i guess you "forgot" about that :-) )

Nevermind,
Ignore the post if you dont agree,
Just dont give me 57 useless replies like the last time
i posted on this forum.

2018-09-22 00:36

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11100

Quote:

the fact that timemachine was released about 20 years after the previous recordholders released their version would kinda validate my point or would you not agree?

i still dont really get what that point is, but obviously it gets increasingly harder to beat those records. and for a bunch of records we know that the limit has been reached (eg "how many sprites over FLI", or "how many sprites on a screen"). that of course means you will see record breaking demos less and less often. i can assure you those are highly regarded by everyone though :) however, that (at least for me) also implies its also getting increasingly non interesting to beat those records. also, speaking for myself, i dont care if someone can do 15 or 20 or 40 DYCP on top of each other. its still ugly and unreadable :) i think what your "problem" might be, is that the days of plain in your face tech wankery are over, however - as jackasser already said, also the modern stuff requires all those skill and squeezes the last cycles out of the machine. often probably more than in any 80s rasterdemo :)

2018-09-22 20:48

JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1987

Quote: I guess you didnt understand the true meaning of this post,
Ofcourse there are brilliant demos still turning up in the "oldschool" changre.
the fact that timemachine was released about 20 years after
the previous recordholders released their version would kinda validate my point or would you not agree?

I saw timemachine for the first time in Gothenburg at datastorm and i can truly say that it is an exception from the spirit of this post.
(I also held your beer while you puked your guts out behind the party place Jackasser but i guess you "forgot" about that :-) )

Nevermind,
Ignore the post if you dont agree,
Just dont give me 57 useless replies like the last time
i posted on this forum.

I remeber pukeing and someone holding my beer. Thanks!! :)

2018-09-22 22:23

Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289

I'll be plainly rude here but can explain. Nobody beats old records anymore because from this day's standpoint these routines are fugly, nobody cares and everyone is too old to show off cocks (with some exceptions) :D It's always more entertaining to invest time in new ideas for routines (even if they are constantly lookups, static mapping and vic abuse), screens, design and story. Time goes forward and so does, paradoxicaly, C64 ;)

2018-09-22 22:57

Golara
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2018
Posts: 212

Beating old records is extremely hard and sometimes not possible, because they are proven to not be possible. I'm mostly doing raster effects, because playing with the VIC and making it do stuff it was never intended to do is much more interesting to me than 3D stuff (that's half of the story, the other is that i suck at math, especially on such little cpu). Everytime I finish an effect and are very happy about it i get reminded how insignificant it is after watching Booze or Crest demo that does the same thing but bigger / more colors / faster... and 15 years ago

2018-09-22 23:51

T.M.R
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749

Quoting Nova

So, Here come the "hot potato",
Did "todays elite" choose a different path simply because the "oldschool" effects just cannot be done faster within the hardware limitations, (sticking my chinn out here, punch it if you want to!)

Hold still then... =-)

It's not that the oldschool effects are impossible to top because it does happen and we still get the odd flurry of one-upmanship from time to time, but there's not much wiggle room left to improve on what's gone before and, whilst there might be ways to improve on plotter or DYCP records if ugly-looking curves are used, the aesthetic is important to many developers these days (although people used to rag on each other for doing that back then too...)

And that doesn't mean there isn't room for someone to code demos that concentrate on pushing boundaries and, as I seem to find myself saying a lot these days, if you want to see something it's best to lead by example... things like the intro competition or that one Monte Carlos ran for illegal opcodes a couple of years ago are great as a deadline to get something finished and, if there's no current compo on the go which fits the bill, you could always start your own...?

[Shrugs] I don't do this much but here's me offering myself as a sort-of-example; a few years back I found myself missing the days of having lots of small, fun releases and started putting out a small onefiler per month, usually trying something I hadn't done previously to push myself a little... I've no idea if those did anything apart from entertain me, but hey ho I did it anyway. =-)

2018-09-23 07:05

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11100

Quote:

I remeber pukeing and someone holding my beer. Thanks!! :)

2018-09-24 07:45

Trap

Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 222

Interesting discussion. I'll dish in :)

Groepaz has a point. More is not better anymore. Today, speaking for Bonzai anyway, it's not so much about creating more sprites, more scrollers, more xyz, but it is much more about creating something that looks beautiful - if difficult programming is required to get the result, then so be it, but it is not the goal. Looking back at recent AAA demos, boundaries are definitely still being pushed, but that is not what you are getting at, right Nova? What I see is that people tend to revisit old ideas and refine them so they look better. So here's what I think; demos today are just as impossible from a technical perspective, but the collaboration between coders and artists allow us to create much more beautiful results. At least that's what I am seeing.

/Trap

2018-09-24 07:48

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11100

you could put it like this: in 1989 the main purpose of the demo was to push the boundaries. today its a side effect. but it happens nonetheless :)

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