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Forums > C64 Coding > COMPO: BORDERLINE 2021 COMPO
2020-12-24 22:05
Motley

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 5
COMPO: BORDERLINE 2021 COMPO

COMPO: DEMOS IN BORDERS ONLY

Borderline 2021 Compo

- Stock C64 Category (NORMAL)
- REU C64 Category (REU BASED)

Competition Rules:

* All visual effects must be contained inside The BORDERS ONLY.
* MAINSCREEN can be in any, ONE color ONLY.
* REU is allowed.
* ALL REU entries will be put in a special REU BORDER Category.

May the best one win in each category.

Best seasonal greetings from
Motley/F4CG/STARZ, Qdor/FLT and Jackasser/BOOZE DESIGN
2020-12-24 22:07
Ze Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 468
coooompoooooooooo!!!! \o/
2020-12-24 22:56
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1019
Excellent and fun idea! <3 Too bad only about overlapping deadline :/ Any chance to extend it perhaps?
2020-12-24 23:01
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
To clarify, mainscreen means the normal 40/38 x 25/24 area.
2020-12-24 23:03
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1019
I assume 38x24 chars is more attractive option here ;)
2020-12-24 23:37
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 845
and no sprites allowed! ;)
2020-12-24 23:37
Qdor

Registered: Aug 2012
Posts: 2
HIGHLIGHT: Main screen can be one color only at all times. No flickering is allowed.
2020-12-24 23:45
Qdor

Registered: Aug 2012
Posts: 2
@Burglar: Does it say no sprites allowed? We allow sprites as long as they are used inside the border.
Do your best, send us your contribution as soon as you are satisfyed with it. Not later than feb. 24th .'
2020-12-24 23:49
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
For clarity, ghostbyte is allowed (just hide it in the main area), especially for c128 releases!
2020-12-24 23:55
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 845
Quoting Qdor
@Burglar: Does it say no sprites allowed? We allow sprites as long as they are used inside the border.
heh, I was trying to make a joke ;)
obviously sprites are sort of mandatory in a border-only compo
2020-12-24 23:57
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Quoting Qdor
@Burglar: Does it say no sprites allowed? We allow sprites as long as they are used inside the border.
heh, I was trying to make a joke ;)
obviously sprites are sort of mandatory in a border-only compo


Or d021-splits, or ghost byte, or creative use of 39th column hires bitmap mode etc etc. Bring it on!
2020-12-25 00:12
Motley

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 5
My recommendation:

Go ape shit!!
2020-12-25 00:15
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1741
Central scotoma, the compo :-O
2020-12-25 00:19
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: My recommendation:

Go ape shit!!


My recommendation, don’t repeat Streetuff’s mistake. Love u guys both. But I’ll moderate ”stuff”. ❤️❤️❤️
2020-12-25 00:32
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 283
If D011 = $00-0f, though, then there is no screen, right..? In which case the whole 408x273px becomes “border”..? I assume that’s not allowed..?
2020-12-25 00:35
Motley

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 5
Just go fucking wild.
2020-12-25 00:38
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Just go fucking wild.

Or clarify... this is NOT a sprites only compo
2020-12-25 00:40
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1019
Isn't ghostbyte limited to top/bottom border then in that case? :D What if sprites overlap a few pixels with visible area? :P
2020-12-25 00:44
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Isn't ghostbyte limited to top/bottom border then in that case? :D What if sprites overlap a few pixels with visible area? :P

Yep regarding ghost byre. Second: U’re out
2020-12-25 00:51
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: If D011 = $00-0f, though, then there is no screen, right..? In which case the whole 408x273px becomes “border”..? I assume that’s not allowed..?

Not allowed
2020-12-25 00:51
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1019
Quoting JackAsser
Second: U’re out




Quoting JackAsser
Not allowed

But disabling screen is not disallowed in general if sprites know their place? ;)
2020-12-25 01:16
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1741
Quoting Jammer
But disabling screen is not disallowed in general if sprites know their place? ;)
I guess the rules scream for that badline-less screen mode with open y-borders at the least. =)
2020-12-25 01:18
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9713
Why not be sneaky and add
* MAINSCREEN can be in any, ONE color ONLY (NOT the same as the border color)
:)
2020-12-25 05:25
Six

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 254
rules proposal: only plasmas allowed.

In all seriousness - reading the thread, can you clarify which of these is true:

1. The ESCOS trick to have the full screen without badlines is not allowed.
2. The ESCOS trick to have the full screen without badlines is allowed as long as you don't leave what would normally be the border with them.

The trade off is going to be between losing the rastertime to badlines so you can have the ghostbyte or getting the extra rastertime for just sprites, then? Or am I mistaking the rules?
2020-12-25 08:55
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1741
Quoting Six
The trade off is going to be between losing the rastertime to badlines so you can have the ghostbyte or getting the extra rastertime for just sprites, then?
That badline-less ("ESCOS") mode has idle byte ("ghostbyte") all over the place, no? =)
2020-12-25 10:23
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Quoting Six
The trade off is going to be between losing the rastertime to badlines so you can have the ghostbyte or getting the extra rastertime for just sprites, then?
That badline-less ("ESCOS") mode has idle byte ("ghostbyte") all over the place, no? =)


You can have badlines if you like, but why?!! The graphics you emit must be the same all over anyway. The net result should be a big blob of single, non changing color in the middle (40/38 x 25/24).

And taking Groepaz’ advice:

RULE ADDENDUM: center area must be of a different color than the border. I can imagine timing can be tricky so a few lines or pixels extra or less of the center area is ok. But it should by no mistake look like the regular border.
2020-12-25 12:04
Clarence

Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 106
Quote: For clarity, ghostbyte is allowed (just hide it in the main area), especially for c128 releases!

So c128 is also allowed?

The executable is one file, or multi loading also possible?
It doesn't have to be one fx only?

What's the upper limit of REU size? Preloading it with a data file is ok before run?
2020-12-25 13:12
wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 375
As much as I like the idea, there's too much compos at the same time IMHO. It wouldn't really hurt anyone or anything if that one would start after the other ones finish. Which would also make sure there's enough attention of the spectators for all of them.
2020-12-25 13:22
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: As much as I like the idea, there's too much compos at the same time IMHO. It wouldn't really hurt anyone or anything if that one would start after the other ones finish. Which would also make sure there's enough attention of the spectators for all of them.

Agree. I didn’t initiate it and I’m just tech help. :)
2020-12-25 14:08
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1741
What wacek said. Seems to happen frequently lately, so it's hard not to suspect deliberate intention. Then again, CSDb needs some kind of "current compos" sticky.
2020-12-25 14:12
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9713
Whats really needed is a proper place to host compos where you can submit something and its not shown until deadline, and where you cant see what others voted at least before deadline.

But of course that requires more effort than throwing random ideas into a thread :)
2020-12-25 16:51
XTRO

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 2
Are visual effects allowed for clearing the (40x25) screen?
2020-12-25 16:53
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9713
obviously not - that'd make this a "who makes the nicest screen clear" compo
2020-12-25 17:20
Peacemaker

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 199
nice idea.
2020-12-25 17:38
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Are visual effects allowed for clearing the (40x25) screen?

What Groepaz said
2020-12-25 17:40
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: So c128 is also allowed?

The executable is one file, or multi loading also possible?
It doesn't have to be one fx only?

What's the upper limit of REU size? Preloading it with a data file is ok before run?


C128 no. Single file. Single fx, variations allowed. Upper limit of REU is 2 MiB
2020-12-25 17:42
Ze Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 468
Quote: obviously not - that'd make this a "who makes the nicest screen clear" compo

that prize for 2020 goes to Padua for "we are NOT dead" demo. fantastic fx!
2020-12-25 21:03
Mixer

Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 350
Let's also use an original CRT which barely shows any border to show results. Otherwise this may become a Vice VIC-debug mode compo.
2020-12-25 21:29
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1741
Restricting to VICE "full borders" should be sufficient, i guess.
2020-12-25 22:22
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1741
Quoting JackAsser
C128 no. Single file. Single fx, variations allowed. Upper limit of REU is 2 MiB
Okay, so the two megabytes need to be filled algorithmically from whatever you have in 64K of main RAM? Sounds alright! =)
2020-12-27 02:30
chancer

Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 286
I saw it mentioned elsewhere and thought.. hhm you can't use the SCREEN even. what does that give you?

I think it's too limiting . unless someone has a trick up their sleeve , but there are some very decent coders amongst you, who can do something..

GOOD LUCK
2021-01-06 11:20
itch

Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 23
Hi JackAsser, When i have a finished "product", Just upload it to CSDB or to you? It's official the second it's uploaded?
2021-01-06 13:46
TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 803
Quote: Restricting to VICE "full borders" should be sufficient, i guess.

+1
as this is pretty much what you can see on a real Sony Trinitron CRT with overscan
after smasher's debug border scroll, the debugging border releases fun's done, anyway imho :)
2021-01-07 00:25
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Hi JackAsser, When i have a finished "product", Just upload it to CSDB or to you? It's official the second it's uploaded?

Just upload it and connect it to be released in this compo. You can alway pull it if you want to submit another entry. Your old entry will ofc always linger on CSDb but will not be part of the compo.
2021-01-07 00:25
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: +1
as this is pretty much what you can see on a real Sony Trinitron CRT with overscan
after smasher's debug border scroll, the debugging border releases fun's done, anyway imho :)


Agreed
2021-01-07 13:10
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9713
BTW, you still need to consider a couple pixels "safe area". see my comment here. contrary to socis statement it is not the emulators that are wrong - it is the monitors being different, which is why safe areas exist :) (and the screenshot is not showing how it looks in VICE)
2021-01-07 16:05
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: BTW, you still need to consider a couple pixels "safe area". see my comment here. contrary to socis statement it is not the emulators that are wrong - it is the monitors being different, which is why safe areas exist :) (and the screenshot is not showing how it looks in VICE)

It’s not about the borders but about touching the inner normal screen which has very well defined limits. A couple of pixels here and there to handle timimg is ok. How far out in the borders are up to you. I do recommend not to extend further than VICE full borders though.

Or did I miss your point Groepaz?
2021-01-07 16:25
Honcho

Registered: Apr 2020
Posts: 9
Given the one single effect vs. game with a title screen debate for the Only Sprites compo, worth being a bit more prescriptive on what "all visual effects" means, or can it be as elaborate and extensive as you want as long as the mainscreen isn't used?
2021-01-07 19:32
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9713
Quote:
I do recommend not to extend further than VICE full borders though.

The point is, "full borders" show the maximum area a Monitor will show. Chances are, actual monitors should less than this - hence make sure it still "work" with "normal borders", even slightly less.
2021-01-07 20:01
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 283
Quote: Quote:
I do recommend not to extend further than VICE full borders though.

The point is, "full borders" show the maximum area a Monitor will show. Chances are, actual monitors should less than this - hence make sure it still "work" with "normal borders", even slightly less.


It’s worth remembering as well that 20% of Youtubers like to record demos - even those with DYPPs running through all borders - in “borderless” mode... which basically means your whole demo is invisible ;-)
2021-01-08 00:46
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Quote:
I do recommend not to extend further than VICE full borders though.

The point is, "full borders" show the maximum area a Monitor will show. Chances are, actual monitors should less than this - hence make sure it still "work" with "normal borders", even slightly less.


Yup point taken but let’s just have that as general information. I thought you meant specific additional rules.
2021-01-08 00:48
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Given the one single effect vs. game with a title screen debate for the Only Sprites compo, worth being a bit more prescriptive on what "all visual effects" means, or can it be as elaborate and extensive as you want as long as the mainscreen isn't used?

The latter. I didn’t create the compo but afaik it specifically mentions demo and do not restrict to one part.
2021-01-09 14:53
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9713
Quote:
I thought you meant specific additional rules.

NO, not at all. just a hint ;)
2021-01-10 03:22
Honcho

Registered: Apr 2020
Posts: 9
is "inverted" use of ghostbyte OK, i.e. $ff to make the mainscreen black as long as borders are not black, including top/bottom?
2021-01-10 10:12
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: is "inverted" use of ghostbyte OK, i.e. $ff to make the mainscreen black as long as borders are not black, including top/bottom?

Yes, that would qualify as a black center area. Also a smart move, combined with sprites under chars, to get automatic clipping with open borders but disabled display.
2021-01-12 22:05
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 4666
I have a great idea for next compo, how about a $3fff only compo ? :)
2021-01-12 22:34
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: I have a great idea for next compo, how about a $3fff only compo ? :)

C128 or Reu allowed? 😂
2021-01-12 22:39
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 4666
Quote: C128 or Reu allowed? 😂

nah too easy, get creative ppl :)
2021-01-13 00:51
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1741
$39ff allowed? =)
2021-01-13 09:38
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 4666
Quote: $39ff allowed? =)

yeah :)
2021-01-13 16:17
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1019
What is at $39ff? ;)
2021-01-13 18:27
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1741
Quoting Jammer
What is at $39ff? ;)
Idle byte with ECM. Can select between $3fff and $39ff via $d011. Not sure if this has any relevance for background colour without badlines, though. =)
2021-01-14 13:53
Honcho

Registered: Apr 2020
Posts: 9
Just to confirm, the one colour only for mainscreen means that you can only set the colour once, at the outset, and no changes at all from there on, e.g. no change from one single colour to another as part of a scene/effect change even if these changes occur like 30 secs apart?
2021-01-14 14:46
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Just to confirm, the one colour only for mainscreen means that you can only set the colour once, at the outset, and no changes at all from there on, e.g. no change from one single colour to another as part of a scene/effect change even if these changes occur like 30 secs apart?

Correct
2021-01-19 11:33
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 283
Does the border need to be actually visible - or is it allowed to have a single colour for the whole screen+border?

Asking for a friend.
2021-01-19 11:42
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Does the border need to be actually visible - or is it allowed to have a single colour for the whole screen+border?

Asking for a friend.


That's ok but a bit boring imo.
2021-01-19 11:50
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1741
Quoting Raistlin
Does the border need to be actually visible - or is it allowed to have a single colour for the whole screen+border?

Asking for a friend.
Quoting JackAsser
That's ok but a bit boring imo.
Wasn't this explicitly ruled out long ago?

Quoting JackAsser
And taking Groepaz’ advice:

RULE ADDENDUM: center area must be of a different color than the border. I can imagine timing can be tricky so a few lines or pixels extra or less of the center area is ok. But it should by no mistake look like the regular border.
2021-01-19 13:09
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 283
"a few lines or pixels extra or less of the center area is ok"

.. this one I don't understand. Rules are rules, right? We can all save screenshots from VICE and compare our "fake border" to VICE's border, after all, can't we..? Just set the screen to 38 or 40 columns, 24 or 25 rows, take a snapshot from VICE - and recreate the exact border appearance in your demo part?
2021-01-19 13:36
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1741
Quoting Raistlin
"a few lines or pixels extra or less of the center area is ok"

.. this one I don't understand. Rules are rules, right? We can all save screenshots from VICE and compare our "fake border" to VICE's border, after all, can't we..? Just set the screen to 38 or 40 columns, 24 or 25 rows, take a snapshot from VICE - and recreate the exact border appearance in your demo part?
This is to address minor visual differences when "simulating" the screen+border duality, i believe.

Recreating the exact screen position can be prohibitively tricky or downright impossible.

E.g., think of raster splits to switch background colour twice a frame, which may produce grey dots. Or the fact that a write to $d016 to open the sideborder must happen exactly one cycle before the sideborder, and prevents you from writing to any colour register in that region.
2021-01-19 15:18
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Quoting Raistlin
"a few lines or pixels extra or less of the center area is ok"

.. this one I don't understand. Rules are rules, right? We can all save screenshots from VICE and compare our "fake border" to VICE's border, after all, can't we..? Just set the screen to 38 or 40 columns, 24 or 25 rows, take a snapshot from VICE - and recreate the exact border appearance in your demo part?
This is to address minor visual differences when "simulating" the screen+border duality, i believe.

Recreating the exact screen position can be prohibitively tricky or downright impossible.

E.g., think of raster splits to switch background colour twice a frame, which may produce grey dots. Or the fact that a write to $d016 to open the sideborder must happen exactly one cycle before the sideborder, and prevents you from writing to any colour register in that region.


Exactly this. I know how hard that can be and downright impossible, so better to relax that rule to get nicer entries.
2021-01-19 15:37
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9713
Just disqualify all entries that doesnt have the border at the exactly right pixels in the screenshot. Some ppl around here may assist you with that :)
2021-01-19 16:42
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Just disqualify all entries that doesnt have the border at the exactly right pixels in the screenshot. Some ppl around here may assist you with that :)

Hahaha! :)
2021-01-19 20:06
itch

Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 23
Hi, i have a mini demo! .. I cant upload it because the page is locked?
2021-01-19 21:24
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Hi, i have a mini demo! .. I cant upload it because the page is locked?

You shouldn't update that page. Just create a new release, then choose this compo as release compo and it will automagically be added to the page.
2021-01-19 21:31
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Due to the big overlap in time with the sprites only compo and due the the coding difficulties in this one, we've extended the deadline one month.
2021-01-21 01:04
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Rastabah's entry is an edge case but approved. This is exacly why I relaxed the border rules.
2021-01-22 01:51
Honcho

Registered: Apr 2020
Posts: 9
Quote: Rastabah's entry is an edge case but approved. This is exacly why I relaxed the border rules.

Probably a stupid question, but Rasta Bah's entry has a mainscreen that's bang on 320x200px perfectly overlapping with the standard BASIC screen so what makes it an edge case? A mainscreen that's 312x192px (39x24) would also work I assume? I don't want to waste time on something that gets kicked out because it falls foul of rules I don't understand ;)
2021-01-22 07:58
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1790
Quote: Probably a stupid question, but Rasta Bah's entry has a mainscreen that's bang on 320x200px perfectly overlapping with the standard BASIC screen so what makes it an edge case? A mainscreen that's 312x192px (39x24) would also work I assume? I don't want to waste time on something that gets kicked out because it falls foul of rules I don't understand ;)

39x24 is ok.
2021-01-22 13:11
Rastah Bar

Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 286
I'm basically using the good old "26 character rows" trick.
Btw, who moved my release into the compo?
It's alright, but next time ask me first, please.
2021-01-22 18:05
Monte Carlos

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 274
My C128 VDC screen is right beside the VIC screen. Is it in the right border, then?
2021-01-22 18:11
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1741
Quoting Monte Carlos
My C128 VDC screen is right beside the VIC screen. Is it in the right border, then?
Don't be silly. Everyone knows it's in extrascan no man's land. =)
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