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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 509 |
Release id #88112 : Heil Hitler
This release kicks off a needed discussion about introducing any 'sensitive' (in many meanings of that word) material to this database.
Once again, there should be some rules about such things. Example - besides the above release - is stuff that is offensive to some sceners, done by other sceners in bad taste and certainly not good intentions... I also have some things like this in my collection, but uptil now decided not to share it.
Can we maybe appoint some general approach to this?? |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
Why? Someone posing as a WWE member send me a disk late '89, i liked the original intro.
But this one had swastica's and even more after pressing the spacebar.
I decided not to spread it, end of discussion. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
just a sidenote, bear in mind: I am not making an opinion with this, just a fact:
a few years ago there was a countrywide scandal in hungary, because someone found a ~10+years old lame stupid hungarian gipsy killer game in a similar database (collecting amiga games) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
History has proven that discussions like this on CSDb end in chaos about subjective thresholds between 'what is allowed' and 'what is not allowed'.
Now you start with some antisemitic Austrian and personal stuff, but what if religion gets involved?
No sir, no restrictions! |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
(edit: tho the scandal wouldnt have happened if someone wouldnt have used the game to provoke the scandal) |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
@Oswald, a simulair thing happenend on 64 a long, long time ago, regarding Jews.
Some people were offendend, but never looked at it again (lame?, stupid?).
I agree with Mace. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
maybe there should be a disclaimer added to csdb, that the included materials does not express the views blabla, just collecting, bla bla, we do not intend to bla bla, etc. :) |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
Oswald: the same thing happend to what i mentioned earlier. |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
Quote: Why? Someone posing as a WWE member send me a disk late '89, i liked the original intro.
But this one had swastica's and even more after pressing the spacebar.
I decided not to spread it, end of discussion.
mmm its a bit complicated... i think i remember a demo by deathsector (was it deathsector? umm) having line vectors showing a swastika... they were referring to the finnish airforce (i hope)... because they have a swastika as a symbol.
also the indian embassy in london has swastikas infront of the door.
so its not that easy to say swastika = nazi-shit.
but in germany swastikas as a symbol are forbidden.
if the server -hosting csdb- would be located in germany - this would have to be removed because of the law, or the administrator may run into some trouble.
i think this server is located in sweden? i dont know much about the swedish law - it may be very different.
because when you allow uploading this release, there may follow up alot of nazi-games and other stuff...
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
Yazoo: they were referring to the Finnish Airforce.
Material of this nature gets used to provoke people, wheter you like it or not.
And indeed: it was a nazi-game. You can always ignore it. |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2556 |
Although I certainly don´t like this stuff either (who does?), I think it is right to preserve it here. It is a part of scene history.
All sorts of censorship can take a wrong path - just see Fight Against Racism which was not shown in the compo at TP ´94 because it had _crossed out_ swastikas in it - and this problem is generally here in Germany also for t-shirts and other stuff with crossed-out swastikas (which are forbidden!), which is stupid for obvious reason. |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
Material of a sensitive nature gets used by the scene/media to provoke.
Who are we to do something about that?. |
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tnu
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2010
Posts: 42 |
Quote:i think this server is located in sweden? i dont know much about the swedish law - it may be very different.
....the same law in sweden as in germany - forbidden..... |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
History: The fight between Fascism, Communism and Left (which sometimes led to war). |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:History has proven that discussions like this on CSDb end in chaos about subjective thresholds between 'what is allowed' and 'what is not allowed'.
and because of that, what counts is the law :)
Quote:Although I certainly don´t like this stuff either (who does?), I think it is right to preserve it here. It is a part of scene history. All sorts of censorship can take a wrong path
yep, totally agree.
as for swastikas and them beeing forbidden - for the most part it doesnt apply to csdb at all. preserving original material for the sake of history is fine, pretty much everywhere (even in germany).
and to speak for myself, some of that nazi crap is part of my "history" too. i want that silly shit here so i can laugh about it when i feel like it, just like i did 20 years ago already :) also fuck political correctness. |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
I just ignore it, like i did >20 years ago. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
and now: Overkill ! :o) |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
Let's do that, and close this chapter. :P |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
entrance fee plz! |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 509 |
I think at some level I reached my goal ;) at least now I know that the official rule is that there is no rule :D |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1065 |
Quote: Quote:i think this server is located in sweden? i dont know much about the swedish law - it may be very different.
....the same law in sweden as in germany - forbidden.....
No, Swedish and German law is VERY different when it comes to Nazi and racist stuff. However, the server is located in Denmark, isn't it? Racism seems to be downright encouraged there these days... |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
Quote: History: The fight between Fascism, Communism and Left (which sometimes led to war).
Very much alive today, in many countries. Racism is just a side-effect, instigated by social circumstances. |
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
Quoting MagerValp...the server is located in Denmark, isn't it? Racism seems to be downright encouraged there these days...
I wonder which kind of media focus leads people to get this impression.
Personnaly it's my IMPRESSION that there's a way larger percentile of people with anti-racial/anti-some-religion views in both .se and .de, than in .dk.
Facts? I have NO idea ;-)
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tnu
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2010
Posts: 42 |
....why dont we leave this political/racial/hate/blah blah debate and conentrate on what this database is all about......??? |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
I think history should be preserved here.
The google-hits on keywords is an issue though.
Call me a sissy but two alternatives from the top of my head:
*** the name?
H***H**** and use the *-text in the aka: eil itler or something like that.
And/or add a line that 'explains' us. I know especially the latter is lame but won't hurt either.
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
As for the wider scope of this discussion: Of course there can be some material that shouldn't be added to CSDb even if it has been "released", for example stuff that could really hurt and/or put currently existing people in danger. If someone were to create a CSDb release titled "<scener's real name> is a paedophile" it should for example be removed immediately, for obvious reasons, no matter if it was "released" or not. |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
I don't think we should put too much weight on the political aspects of these old demos.
I mean, I used a graphics of the Soviet "Hammer and sickle" symbol in Time Out and it sure as hell wasn't any political statement, I was (and still am) as far as you can possible get from a communist. It was just a thing that Triad used, so I used it too.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
"The google-hits on keywords is an issue though."
please try typing "hitler" into the searchbar here. no, i dont see how these 3 hits are an issue at all. i get more hits than that at wikipedia when searching for the same thing :)
radiantx: that kind of stuff is more or less hypothetical though, and certainly doesnt apply to stuff from 20 years ago :) (to bad it doesnt apply to stuff that hurt my eyes and/or ears either) |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
"google-hits", "server-locations", hypothetical maybe's... nonsense!.
Stop pissing around the pot and do something constructive. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2914 |
Oh boy, don't let the politicos get control here. After these words are censored then we'll move on to other words/phrases. In about a year, the name of the website will need to be changed to "Such-and-suchs political C64 View".
I think one of the reasons the scene exists is to get away from the "real world" and it seems some people think we should drag it into CSDb. Fuck no, make your own website and then add your own "PC rules".
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quote:for example stuff that could really hurt and/or put currently existing people in danger
yes lets delete all cracks! |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
There are online database that have a lot of information and don't hold downloads (Gamebase64 is an example).
Nice, but websites like CSDb have more value. |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
I have a problem with "getting away from the real word".
Sorry!, when i entered the scene, it was about keeping the scene spirit alive,
*not* getting away from the real world, that frightens me, it was the exact opposite.
Contemplate on this. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Why? Someone posing as a WWE member send me a disk late '89, i liked the original intro.
But this one had swastica's and even more after pressing the spacebar.
I decided not to spread it, end of discussion.
I think back then they were still called WWF. Don't remember them having a nazi wrestler though. |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
Well, it had that world wide expressive logo.
Let's leave it at that, it wasn't the WWE i knew, i liked Maps gfx back in 88, not to mention the rest.
I didn't figure WWE wouldn't have had a nazi-wrestler at all, that was the point. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I hate it when people don't get my lame jokes :(
On a more serious note: it could have very well been a real WWE member, we had some shady Germans* in our group back then. Don't recall the demo you mentioned though, never even heard about it until now.
* shady Dutch & Swedes too. |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
So you hate it when people don't get your lame jokes.
I'm not in the mood for humour right now, if you don't mind.
Not to mention: your reply sounds "shady", indeed, it ruins my sense of humour.
Let's get serious then: it wasn't a demo but a nazi-game, does this make sense to you?.
Well, it didn't make sense to me at that time, but it happend.
So much for lame jokes, goodluck "getting away from the real word" i'd say. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: So you hate it when people don't get your lame jokes.
I'm not in the mood for humour right now, if you don't mind.
Not to mention: your reply sounds "shady", indeed, it ruins my sense of humour.
Let's get serious then: it wasn't a demo but a nazi-game, does this make sense to you?.
Well, it didn't make sense to me at that time, but it happend.
So much for lame jokes, goodluck "getting away from the real word" i'd say.
Who says anything about getting away from the real world? I don't mind that you take things here way too seriously, but don't pretend to know me, okay?
And just in case you don't get it: I don't condone those actions by that guy, I just said it was possible he could actually have been a WWE member. We had some rotten apples in our crew back then, that's all. |
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tnu
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2010
Posts: 42 |
Quote:I don't mind that you take things here way too seriously
...i repeat my self.....this is not the right place for this discussion....and..yes...people do take this too seriously... |
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Paul Bearer
Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 13 |
Actually, lots of C64 stuff is still on the German index:
Games like Beach Head, Raid over Moscow, Green Beret, Desert Fox, Friday the 13th and tons of others (eventhough most will surely get scratched at the 25-year re-evaluation as it has happened with Speed Racer).
Also demos and graphics collections - Swedish Erotica (banned for pornography since May 1987), Pure Byte's Sex Cartoons, racist stuff like Anti T. Test... it's a long list.
CSDb could easily be put on that list ten times over for distributing banned material with the stuff we have here right now, but I'm pretty sure they have different priorities, i.e. they don't give a fuck about 8-bit stuff. :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Yes please, delete it! And while we're at it, go on and remove all the releases which propagate communism, several Wrath releases come to my mind. Up to my knowledge, the red star and the hammer&sickle are also forbidden symbols in several countries. I demand from you to be offended by the ~100.000.000 death toll of communist regimes!
*sigh*
My close relatives who were killed by communists are laying in mass graves, still you don't see my crying in vain to take down Courtesy of Soviet, do you?
So as long as I don't see you getting up for take down those releases, shut the fuck up and continue with whatever you were doing before this discussion.
Gotta adore double standards.
P.S. by the way, wasn't this Ogami guy also painting Lenin and/or commie related stuff later on? Or I'm mistaking him with someone? |
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Ben
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 163 |
Hiding obvious references to sensitive topics from index bots or even anonymous users might be the way to go. Say, once one or several sceners have flagged it as such.
This would not hurt the historical archive but prevent (1) arbitrary outsiders from getting offended and (2) careers (et cetera) of the creator -who might have been plain ignorant at the time- from being harmed. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
If the releases are not conflicting with laws of the area where the site is served from, then leave everything as-is and add a disclaimer. Problem solved, fuss over. No one sane will become a nazi, communist or satanist by watching 10+ year old C64 demos made by ideologically/religiously confused teens. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
add a disclaimer? to what exactly and why exactly? |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Sorry Groepi, I've missed the fact that such a disclaimer - although a bit poorly worded, - already exists. Not sure how would this hold up in court once an idiot decides to sue CSDb or Perff because of an animated vector swastika or a a multicolored underage tit (seen stuff here which would easily pass as CP in the eyes of some), but that's not my problem all right.
Anyway. It's Friday. All of you, finish your work and go drinking. |
