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Forums > CSDb Entries > Event id #2670 : $11 Music Compo
2018-02-02 23:50
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Event id #2670 : $11 Music Compo

Samar crew is proud and happy to announce brand new '$11 Music Compo'. Figure out how much you can do with your hands tied 😉 It's all about sheer fun!


Compo rules:

- only triangle wave, no wave or testbit allowed
- no ringmod or sync
- single/multispeed allowed
- no digis (thcm digis use only $11, $01 and $09 but... no)
- 1SID only
- min. 2 minutes playtime
- any number of tunes per musician
- tunes can be submitted till the end of 02.03
- please supply executable first and then sid, otherwise CSDb mods will skin you alive xD
- other necessary rules might be added later on


Voting:

- there's one week after compo deadline to vote
- CSDb is voting platform


Reward:

- fame and glory
- 10 best voted tunes will be compiled into bandcamp release with gorgeous cover art by Isildur


Have fun and use forum for questions and comments!
2018-02-03 01:37
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
boulderdash-player compo? =)
2018-02-03 03:26
Compyx

Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 330
Since there's already some limitations in place, how about restricting the size of the binary to 2KB (for example $1000-$17ff). This might result in new code.
2018-02-03 07:11
Linus

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 596
Quote: Since there's already some limitations in place, how about restricting the size of the binary to 2KB (for example $1000-$17ff). This might result in new code.

... and less entries :)
2018-02-03 07:47
Stryyker

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 459
What do you mean by no wave?
2018-02-03 08:30
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting Stryyker
What do you mean by no wave?


If your editor of choice gives you that option, you can set wave register to gate on or off ($01/$00) without any waveform selected. It works practically as testbit - sound stops abruptly, just waveform phase is not resetted. Goat Tracker doesn't allow to put such value directly into wavetable (everything below $10 there is mapped as step delay) but you can still make use of 701 command in particular track which results in the above :)
2018-02-03 08:47
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1339
Oh.. I first read it to be "no ... testbit" allowed, but now I see how you mean. So basically any combination of bit0 (gate on/off), bit3 (testbit on/off) and bit4 (triangle wave on/off) is allowed in that register, whereas the other bits must always be set to 0, right?
2018-02-03 08:49
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting Compyx
Since there's already some limitations in place, how about restricting the size of the binary to 2KB (for example $1000-$17ff). This might result in new code.


That would limit choice of editors surely. Goat Tracker player is modular hence it would compile smaller player but I'm not sure about other editors. Compo is musicians' oriented and rule set is already quite demanding ;)


Quoting Frantic
Oh.. I first read it to be "no ... testbit" allowed, but now I see how you mean. So basically any combination of bit0 (gate on/off), bit3 (testbit on/off) and bit4 (triangle wave on/off) is allowed in that register, whereas the other bits must always be set to 0, right?


Exactly :) Just to give you a little hint in Goat Tracker - as it doesn't map values $00-$0f directly into wave register, you can still use e.g. $e9 to trigger testbit in wavetable. Cadaver's little workaround :D

edit:

Actually I was wrong about very gatebit as you can still write $e1 into Goat Tracker wavetable. (Me ducks and covers in shame :D)
2018-02-03 09:39
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
As this particular rule seems confusing gramatically:

- only triangle wave, no wave or testbit allowed

Let me rewrite it with Oxford comma:

- only triangle wave, no wave selected, and testbit are allowed

I hope it's not that confusing now ;) Frantic did explain it the best anyway ;)
2018-02-03 10:38
iAN CooG

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1892
Quote: As this particular rule seems confusing gramatically:

- only triangle wave, no wave or testbit allowed

Let me rewrite it with Oxford comma:

- only triangle wave, no wave selected, and testbit are allowed

I hope it's not that confusing now ;) Frantic did explain it the best anyway ;)


to me now the 2nd way seem to be contradicting the 1st.
is test bit allowed or not?
Seems more a coding compo than a music compo to me, but what the fuck I know, good luck =)
2018-02-03 10:50
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Well, in music editor you program wave register too ;) It's legit music compo - not much coding here, unless you create your own player.

You can manipulate triangle bit, test bit and gate bit. I didn't want to put it that way initially to avoid confusion among musicians without programming skills but it turned out English is a bitch xD

- triangle waveform
- no waveform
- testbit

That's more or less what twisted grammar was supposed to convey ;) Sorry! :D
2018-02-03 10:57
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 822
Quote: Since there's already some limitations in place, how about restricting the size of the binary to 2KB (for example $1000-$17ff). This might result in new code.

Your new code? Still waiting... ;)

Anyway, think I'm gonna mix-up 2 compos now.
2018-02-03 11:49
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Quote: Since there's already some limitations in place, how about restricting the size of the binary to 2KB (for example $1000-$17ff). This might result in new code.

Our idea was to squeeze $11 as much as possible so file size limit is unnecessary ;)
2018-02-03 12:26
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 786
Oh wait, testbit's allowed? That changes things a lot. I read that backwards before. Thanks for the clarification.
2018-02-03 15:39
Mixer

Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 263
I think I'll pitch in a - no wave - entry.
2018-02-03 15:43
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting Mixer
I think I'll pitch in a - no wave - entry.


Click house? ;)
2018-02-03 15:50
Mixer

Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 263
Quote: Quoting Mixer
I think I'll pitch in a - no wave - entry.


Click house? ;)


It is just so surreal that there has to be a rule for - no wave :) "you can build this house out of something or emptiness" :) I do not think that what I had in mind is within the spirit of the competition.
2018-02-03 15:56
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Not stating that funny point would mean that we cannot put $01/$00 into reg so either you put triangle, release it or gtfo, heheh xD Believe me, you'll hear it in action ;)
2018-02-03 16:08
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
please define "single/multispeed allowed". 78 player calls per frame ok? replayer running in main loop AND irq ok?
2018-02-03 16:30
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting Groepaz
please define "single/multispeed allowed". 78 player calls per frame ok? replayer running in main loop AND irq ok?


Anything you wish, as long as you don't use routine for reading and playing sample data. Gotta ask Isildur what about soft synth based on very fast replay (if that's what you aim for) :P If it uses routine identical with sample playback, it should IMHO count as digis.
2018-02-03 18:01
algorithm

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 687
Hardware accelerated samples demo used triangle waveform on all channels at x4 speed but does not count as digi (although I guess only original compositions tweaked manually are allowed)
2018-02-03 18:54
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Actually nothing was stated about own compositions, LOLz :D But should be added indeed. That's how it looks when two tired dudes assemble event in the evening ;)
2018-02-03 19:20
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Quote: please define "single/multispeed allowed". 78 player calls per frame ok? replayer running in main loop AND irq ok?

Main idea is how far $11 can go ;)
So if you have such 78x player then don't hesitate to use it!
@Jammer, covers also allowed, why not?
(How about next strange music compo $81? Is it even possible to make music using $81 only?)
2018-02-03 19:48
4mat

Registered: May 2010
Posts: 44
I think this SounDemoN track does something with noise to get actual pitches: PICO!
2018-02-03 20:04
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 353
Quoting Jammer

- tunes can be submitted till the end of 02.03


So it's today only? Can't participate then, since I'm busy at the moment.
2018-02-03 20:09
Moloch

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1743
Dates :
3 February - 2 March 2018
2018-02-03 21:15
Randall

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 388
Quote: I think I'll pitch in a - no wave - entry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_wave

looking vorwärts to that
2018-02-03 22:03
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting lft
So it's today only? Can't participate then, since I'm busy at the moment.


You don't use American date scheme, do you? ;)
2018-02-04 00:58
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
Quote:
Anything you wish, as long as you don't use routine for reading and playing sample data. Gotta ask Isildur what about soft synth based on very fast replay (if that's what you aim for) :P If it uses routine identical with sample playback, it should IMHO count as digis.

please be precise :)
2018-02-04 08:48
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting Groepaz
please be precise :)


Bad trolling is always bad ;)
2018-02-04 11:57
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
not trolling at all, is it allowed or not?
2018-02-04 12:22
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Quote: not trolling at all, is it allowed or not?

Groepaz, if you are thinking of some realtime synth then go ahead, it's allowed.
But digitized samples (like THCM's method) using $11 not allowed.
2018-02-04 12:39
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
i was more thinking of (re)creating other waveforms :) but ok, lets see if i find the time to implement that =P
2018-02-04 12:54
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting Groepaz
not trolling at all, is it allowed or not?

My apologies then.


Quoting Isildur
Groepaz, if you are thinking of some realtime synth then go ahead, it's allowed.
But digitized samples (like THCM's method) using $11 not allowed.

Waveform replayer (soundemon/thcm, call it like you want) is only a method of playback. Potential soft synth is most probably going to use it at high frequency as well :)


If that makes everybody happy, let's say soft synth/custom shapes based on waveform replayer are ok. I assume it doesn't exceed 256b for sound definition created on the spot. So it makes room for karplus and stuff.
2018-02-04 14:13
celticdesign

Registered: Oct 2005
Posts: 117
so is the focus on music/composing or $11 techerymagic? =:-)
2018-02-04 14:15
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Quote: so is the focus on music/composing or $11 techerymagic? =:-)

Of course music/composing! :D
2018-02-04 19:53
No-XS

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 64
I am too silly to know what is meant now.. I read it as: only waveform 11 allowed.. So bring on the Strangleholds
2018-02-04 20:26
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting No-XS
I am too silly to know what is meant now.. I read it as: only waveform 11 allowed.. So bring on the Strangleholds


Triangle waveform is full of magic. You'll surely figure sth out ;)
2018-02-06 15:11
No-XS

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 64
Until yesterday I thought $11 was a sine.. (*ashamed*)

More than a whistle and low bass I can not make just yet.

And what about the noise $81 ? also not allowed?
2018-02-06 15:37
Adam

Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 202
Quoting Jammer

- tunes can be submitted till the end of 02.03


people had one day to submit? (the day you posted?) im confused.
can you write that date in a format that makes sense? thanks :)
2018-02-06 15:41
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 786
Quoting No-XS
Until yesterday I thought $11 was a sine.. (*ashamed*)

Don't feel too bad, until a couple of days ago I was thinking that this was a sawtooth compo; had my bits mixed up. At least triangle is fairly sine-like.

Quote:
More than a whistle and low bass I can not make just yet.

Modulate modulate modulate :D

Quote:
And what about the noise $81 ? also not allowed?

Correct.
2018-02-06 15:55
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting Adam
can you write that date in a format that makes sense? thanks :)


It's the American way of writing data that makes no sense, sorry :P Can we already skip this issue?
2018-02-06 22:14
GH/MSL/Toondichters

Registered: Sep 2014
Posts: 66
Count me in :D
2018-02-06 22:29
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
meh. the whole glorious idea i had sounds like SQUUUEEEEEKKRKRKKRKSKSKKSKRKRKRKRKRKEEE

back to the drawing board =P
2018-02-06 22:35
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Quote: Quoting No-XS
Until yesterday I thought $11 was a sine.. (*ashamed*)

Don't feel too bad, until a couple of days ago I was thinking that this was a sawtooth compo; had my bits mixed up. At least triangle is fairly sine-like.

Quote:
More than a whistle and low bass I can not make just yet.

Modulate modulate modulate :D

Quote:
And what about the noise $81 ? also not allowed?

Correct.


To clarify confusion ;)

Deadline is on 2nd March.

$21 - $81 not allowed, only $11 ($10 for instrument release and $09 as testbit).
2018-02-06 22:40
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting Groepaz
meh. the whole glorious idea i had sounds like SQUUUEEEEEKKRKRKKRKSKSKKSKRKRKRKRKRKEEE

back to the drawing board =P


Bring on the $11 dubstep! \m/
2018-02-07 05:53
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 4233
Quote: meh. the whole glorious idea i had sounds like SQUUUEEEEEKKRKRKKRKSKSKKSKRKRKRKRKRKEEE

back to the drawing board =P


then you can cover this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFGI_gM2HDQ
2018-02-07 12:14
Scarzix

Registered: Aug 2010
Posts: 138
Will consider to participate, but must say motivation for composing for CSDB compos is pretty darn low recently.
2018-02-07 16:05
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 2510
Cool! One of the ideas (not sure who came with it) I was debating about in past (with someone I forgot whom and when) got a compo finally!!! ;-) A dose of round tunes.
2018-02-07 16:11
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 2510
Is DMC5.0 player hardrestart compatible with the compo rules? Just asking. Dunno much about the testbit mojo and stuff. I more or less compose intuitively.
2018-02-07 17:19
spider-j

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 166
Been there, done that.
These Go To Eleven
2018-02-07 17:25
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1339
CreaMD: I find it hard to believe that the DMC hardrestart would mess with sync/ringmod or enable any of the other waveforms, so that should be safe yes.
2018-02-07 18:00
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Even if hardrestart triggers other bits, it's hard to disqualify anyone, especially sometimes you cannot really change it. Won't be much of a problem ;)
2018-02-07 20:51
F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 14
Sorry if this was answered already, but I see no limitations on taking advantage of multispeed usage.

So correct me if I'm wrong - there would be no rules broken with this (6581) or this (8580), for example? Only $11+$10+$00 were used, quasi-ringmods generated via filter-cycle timing and/or waveform timing. Using $11 as a mere triangle only would feel like a waste if this was the forced rule.

I'm new here and just want to be double sure before participating. Thanks! :-)
2018-02-07 22:25
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
That's right. Your examples are absolutely rules compliant ;)
2018-02-07 22:26
Mixer

Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 263
F7sus4, thanks for setting the baseline for the competition :)
2018-02-10 13:02
F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 14
Was doing the tune for the compo today. Bugged out and wanted to recover to earlier version... only to realize the disk was full and all I have are 0 block files.

The last thing I have is Sound Forge recording for analysis. Too furious to start this from scratch again, so I'm simply sharing what I had with you guys (x8/8580).

Sigh!
2018-02-10 13:07
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Great wip! Don't worry, still enough time to try something new! ;)
2018-02-10 16:54
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 2510
Frantic, Jammer, thanx.
2018-02-11 12:08
Digger

Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 274
@F7sus4: This is going to be a daaaaark sounding compo :)
2018-02-12 10:54
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
@Digger daaaaark is good too :D
2018-02-15 09:42
F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 14
Okay, my entry is done now. Now just need non-glitching x8 player. ;-)
2018-02-16 09:00
Klegg

Registered: Feb 2006
Posts: 14
Wait, so filter is allowed? Damnit. :)
2018-02-16 09:09
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Filters allowed ofcoz ;)

Regarding Frantic's post on main compo page - allowed values are:
$00
$01
$08
$09
$10
$11
$18
$19

But still... main wave is $11, rest of the values affects release (ADSR) only.
2018-02-18 18:42
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1339
Testbit does not affect ADSR. It affects the *oscillator*.
2018-02-20 16:01
TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 489
I hate to say it,
but - probably due to the extreme rules -
a terrible compo so far, judging from the results :)

But I hope, at least the competitors have fun!
2018-02-20 16:07
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
@TheRyk, come on, not so extreme.
Guys, just use $11 that's all :D
As a gfx man I try to compose one tune for the compo myself, and it's not so hard.
2018-02-20 16:08
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting TheRyk
I hate to say it,
but - probably due to the extreme rules -
a terrible compo so far, judging from the results :)

But I hope, at least the competitors have fun!


2018-02-20 16:23
קєคςє๓คкєг

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
Quote: I hate to say it,
but - probably due to the extreme rules -
a terrible compo so far, judging from the results :)

But I hope, at least the competitors have fun!


would be extreme if certain notes wouldnt be allowed.

anyway.
my contribution: A Moaning Dirge in $11-minor

thanks to the host for his efforts
2018-02-20 20:05
F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 14
Quoting TheRyk
I hate to say it,
but - probably due to the extreme rules -
a terrible compo so far, judging from the results :)

I dare to disagree. The compo pushed the imagination on C64 sound-engineering to the next level. And if the competitors took their approach to $11 absolutely literally, they still did their best to pull out the best composition using the simplest sounds. I think that the results of those two different approaches are equally entertaining for everyone knowing what had to be done to get what we have.

Quoting קєคςє๓คкєг
would be extreme if certain notes wouldnt be allowed.

Bam! Anhemitonic pentatonic compo with a cherry tree as a motto. (Not that it wasn't there for ages.) There we go! ;-)
2018-02-27 09:38
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Due to heavy request, the deadline is moved to
$11th of March 2018 ;)
2018-02-27 10:55
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
So it ends 17th of March? ;)
2018-02-27 10:57
iAN CooG

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1892
fix the deadline in the compo entry too.
2018-02-27 12:07
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
@Jammer, 11th of March ofcoz :P
@Ian Coog, done.
2018-02-27 15:45
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Cool Isildur!!
2018-02-27 16:38
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
LMan & $11? This gonna to be crazy! :D
2018-03-12 07:27
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
What a simple yet awesome idea for a compo. I'm amazed how many different and fresh approaches were made to tickle the most out of it. $11 is versatile :-D
2018-03-12 08:41
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Thank you Lman.
I would like to thank all of you great SID composers.
You are amazing!
Now please vote for all the tunes to be sure who is the winner ;)
2018-03-12 10:37
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
$11 compo is over. Now I'm waiting for your votes until next Sunday, 18th of March.
Please vote for all the entries! :D
2018-03-12 21:05
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Executable pack for your Ultimate pleasure can be found here:

http://f.jammerstudio.pl/11CompoUltimatePack.zip

Have fun!
2018-03-15 14:19
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1600
User Comment
Submitted by psych858o [PM] on 14 March 2018
Sascha, you wouldn't be yourself without this comment, don't ya? :)

I believe we should stop posting all this crap here, otherwise Kamil will go completely mad.

User Comment
Submitted by Linus [PM] on 14 March 2018
C‘mon, Marcin, you modified the source now, didn’t you? Time to confess thy sins, pal! :D

User Comment
Submitted by psych858o [PM] on 14 March 2018
Stinsen, it is very interesting, no doubts.
I have posted my source as there is nothing to hide :)

Using the opportunity I have to write it - great compo! I would never expect that so much can be squeezed out from $11 :)

User Comment
Submitted by Stinsen [PM] on 14 March 2018
Thanks psycho, it was not my intention to point fingers. I should have known better than to trust my own hacks. The main point of the table was to point to the correlation between number of envelopes and csdb score. :)

Please disregard any mention of "offending waveforms" below and sorry for any inconvenience caused. :/

User Comment
Submitted by psych858o [PM] on 14 March 2018
I have also added my source file. Feel free to check if any $81 were used ;)

User Comment
Submitted by spider-j [PM] on 14 March 2018
Linus: yeah, gotta cheat my way to the bottom :P

User Comment
Submitted by Stinsen [PM] on 14 March 2018
@spider-j: It might very well be a bug in my hacked cadaver tool, so don't pay any attention to it. I included the "offending waveforms" just for completeness and in hindsight probably shouldn't had without properly verifying the facts. Sorry. :/

User Comment
Submitted by Linus [PM] on 14 March 2018
Spider: Dirty lies!!1

User Comment
Submitted by spider-j [PM] on 14 March 2018
@Stinsens stats:
As always I even inluded the sources for my tune. Would be nice if anyone could point out where this ominous "offending waveform" should be generated ;-)

User Comment
Submitted by LMan [PM] on 14 March 2018
Interesting!

User Comment
Submitted by Stinsen [PM] on 14 March 2018
.. and hopefully a more readable version:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KPkINaY5eVHJ1fW_oiECTcH99VW6o3..

User Comment
Submitted by Stinsen [PM] on 14 March 2018
Since some of the the entries in this awesome compo just sounded too good to be true I ran my old hack (Sidmetrics) of cadaver's excellent siddump on all the entries (which had a .sid available) and ended up with the nerdy table below.

Basically what is gives you are the number of unique waveforms, envelopes, filter/volume settings as well as any offending waveforms (based on compo rules) sorted by current csdb rating.

The tool might not be 100% reliable, so don't take these numbers as the absolute truth, but I found them kind of interesting myself. :)

waveforms | envelopes | filter/vol | offending waveform | csdb rating

skypeople 3 | 45 | 11 | | 9.7
11heaven 3 | 50 | 2 | | 9.7
brokenvinyl 3 | 16 | 2 | $81 | 9.6
retriggered 2 | 12 | 5 | | 9.6
mellowhouse 4 | 37 | 8 | | 9.5
einekleine 3 | 25 | 5 | $81 | 9.4
yourtimeisrun 2 | 12 | 2 | | 9.3
clubeleven 2 | 39 | 7 | | 9.2
11thwave 4 | 14 | 3 | | 8.7
mopsit 2 | 20 | 2 | | 8.5
dranalban 2 | 11 | 3 | | 8.5
dangerous 2 | 11 | 15 | | 8.3
17patterns 2 | 7 | 1 | | 8.0
bedlam 2 | 14 | 5 | | 7.9
vielblubbe 3 | 15 | 3 | $1a | 7.6
jellica 2 | 9 | 4 | | 7.8
matematik 2 | 6 | 1 | | 7.5
triagonal 2 | 9 | 1 | | 7.3
euclid unknown opcode $cb at $1611
trianglemyam unknown opcode $0b at $0801
2018-03-18 13:32
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Will there be a screening of non public downvotes by an admin, to make sure it's fair game?
2018-03-18 14:00
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
LMan, good point ;)
2018-03-18 14:55
iAN CooG

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1892
No, it's up to the compo orgas to count votes and make the voters vote in a fair way, by using CSDb as voting platform you face also anon voters. Deal with it and think about a better solution next time you organize a compo =)
2018-03-18 15:21
Mr Ammo

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 104
Quoting Isildur
LMan, good point ;)

While you're at it, also make sure to screen the up-votes. Better yet, just to make it fair, only count the score 5 and declare everything else as up- and down-votes! ;-)

Do you realise how crazy this sounds? Let's not rig the votes and just count and use the totals as they are.
2018-03-18 15:36
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Well I'm not asking without a reason. I've been running the voting system at Remix64 for about 17 years now, which his similar to CSDb in that it's semi open. The manipulations I have seen. So no, it's not that crazy. :)

Thanks for the info, and don't worry, I easily deal and live with it downvoting, and/or coming in close second (anyone who knows me a little shoud be able to confirm that). Still I like a fair game, and I was asking out of curiosity.
2018-03-18 16:19
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 786
What is downvoting though?

I must admit, I stretched my votes so the range was from 5 to 10, just so I could seperate the 22 entries into 6 quality categories.

I'd prefer to have voted from 7 to 10 in smaller increments, but csdb is what it is.
2018-03-18 17:36
GH/MSL/Toondichters

Registered: Sep 2014
Posts: 66
LMan is right...

All anonymous voting cowards should be banned! :D:D:D
2018-03-18 17:36
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Downvoting would be if I voted a 3 on any fellow contestant to increase my chances of winning, while I would normally give him a better vote. For example I'd give Jammer a 2 rather than a 4 lol 😂
2018-03-18 17:38
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
But of course it's hardly possible to prove. In the end, it's a matter of personal honor and integrity.
2018-03-18 18:47
Mr Ammo

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 104
Quoting GH/MSL/Toondichters
LMan is right...

All anonymous voting cowards should be banned! :D:D:D

Sounds like you prefer social desirable voting over honest voting? :P
2018-03-18 19:20
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
ah a voting debate. was about time!
2018-03-18 21:24
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
At Remix64 I've solved it like this:

- You can vote anonymously
- Adding a small comment aka "shout" will publish the vote. The vote's weight will be double
- Adding a full review will make the vote count triple

Additionally, the average is weighted, meaning single outlying votes have lesser weight, discouraging tactical voting in either direction.

For the yearly Remixer of the Year award, a simple collection of nominations will determine the winner, for the manipulation of votes in the voting system would still be too tempting.

Anyway for future CSDb compos, a rule could be that only public votes are counted for the result. Would solve a lot of problems, and wouldn't need any extra coding or external voting mechanisms.
2018-03-18 21:32
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
More details:

http://www.remix64.com/articles/voting-system.html
2018-03-18 21:40
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
i dont get that fetish with public voting :) it will only reduce the number of votes even more (making the result even less representative) and result in even more back petting votes.

also who cares. if you do it for the votes, you shouldnt be doing it perhaps.
2018-03-18 21:44
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
I agree with you, anonymous voting is a basic democratic principle.

However: if you take part in a competition, you will probably hope to score a good place. And you should expect a fair game.
2018-03-18 21:57
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
the fairness that is involved is that everyone can cast his vote. and that everyone is allowed to vote whatever the fuck he wants to vote. since there are hardly any objective criteria to rank art, its all highly subjective and matters on taste. and yes, the one who brings most friends to the voting has an advantage. that problem is there, always. the only way to remove it is to ditch this type of voting alltogether and involve a jury (i very much would like to see this back at X...).
2018-03-18 22:07
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Grumpy as ever 😂
2018-03-18 22:17
iAN CooG

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1892
If you really want to know there are people self voting 10 and placing low votes on all other entries, even if they declare in comment they liked it. Not counting self-group upvotes.
No name revealed but we can see who does what.
Bunch of hypocrites and cheaters.
2018-03-18 22:23
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
LMan: not grumpy at all - just realistic. and what Ian said - since i could see how ppl actually vote, i just dont take it seriously anymore at all. its a silly game, and the result should be taken as such.
2018-03-18 22:26
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Interesting insight. Oh well. If it makes em happy 😄 But somehow I doubt it does.
2018-03-18 22:30
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 4233
jury voting has its downs aswell, like when TDJ's 2 screener 1 file demo won over Clarence's comeback trackmo. :P
2018-03-18 22:41
Adam

Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 202
Quoting F7sus4
I dare to disagree. The compo pushed the imagination on C64 sound-engineering to the next level

hahahah. NEXT LEVEL. what are you smoking?

Quoting Lman
Downvoting would be if I voted a 3 on any fellow contestant to increase my chances of winning, while I would normally give him a better vote. For example I'd give Jammer a 2 rather than a 4 lol 😂

Quoting LMan
But of course it's hardly possible to prove. In the end, it's a matter of personal honor and integrity.


most people here don't give a single fuck about who voted for who or what. it's always a small minority of people that cry because they really feel their shit deserves a higher score no matter what the content is. some peoples insanity and egos are so off the charts its like they expect to get 10 for every bit of shit they make. thankfully reality doesn't work this way.

name/group voting, voting for groupmates.. etc. 10's for all! but when someone gives an honest vote? OH NOES THEY B TROLLING OR SOMETHING! WHO IS THIS ANON!?! lol.

(and people wonder why other users set their votes to private.. what a shock eh?)

if people don't like the vote they get for their work and want to cry, they should seriously quit computing and stfu.
whatever crying user won't find much sympathy here. csdb is not a safe space/circle jerk.
2018-03-18 22:55
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Dafuq? Chill out dude 😂
2018-03-18 23:01
Adam

Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 202
Quoting LMan
Dafuq? Chill out dude 😂


i'm quite chilled, thanks. not sure how 'chilled' those moaning like little girls about voting are. ;)
2018-03-18 23:16
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Neither did you properly read nor understand what this was about. But omg the powerful speech. A true man 💪🤣
2018-03-18 23:30
Adam

Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 202
Quote: Neither did you properly read nor understand what this was about. But omg the powerful speech. A true man 💪🤣

wow. such a patronizing reply. why am i not surprised? :D
2018-03-18 23:34
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
All right all right, you da man. Untouchable!
😄
2018-03-18 23:34
WAVE

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 13
Quote: Dafuq? Chill out dude 😂

Amen.

That was a true rant. Not called for nor uncalled for.
It seems unrealistic to see a vote for a score of 2 when all the other votes are in the regions of 8, 9 and mostly 10.

That is stereotypical for down-voting. It's so obvious that the music content is not judged for it's value, but there's some hidden personal agenda behind it.

Anyway, I don't want to waste any more words on this, because negativity can reach further and farther than it deserves. When it's a pink elephant dancing on the roof singing: "I'm a duck! I'm a duck! I don't give a f*ck!" it's hard to NOT notice... get it? ;)
2018-03-19 00:11
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
Quote:
It seems unrealistic to see a vote for a score of 2 when all the other votes are in the regions of 8, 9 and mostly 10

how? someone may simply not like it. its not "downvoting" when you give a low vote for something you dont like.
2018-03-19 01:44
Adam

Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 202
Quoting Groepaz

how? someone may simply not like it. its not "downvoting" when you give a low vote for something you dont like.

exactly right. but according to some over inflated egos on this board, anything lower than an 7 is offensive and that voter should be questioned! xD
2018-03-19 01:49
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Pity you didn't show how it's done in the compo ;)
2018-03-19 02:01
Adam

Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 202
thanks, but no thanks, jammer. can't say i'm terribly motivated to join in on csdb compos. the compo is a nice idea but.. i'll pass.
2018-03-19 06:54
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
So Adam, since you won't stop calling names. I have to ask you directly. Are you talking to me? At least you began your rant by quoting me.

Fortunately this is a written conversation, anyone can read what was really said. Actually, please scour the web. CSDb, Youtube, Remix64, everywhere. If you find any instance of me complaining about receiving a bad vote, please quote me here.
2018-03-19 06:58
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Btw if you had cared to read my article above, you'll see that I share some of your sentiments. While in a less insultung manner.
2018-03-19 09:09
Linus

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 596
Quote: Downvoting would be if I voted a 3 on any fellow contestant to increase my chances of winning, while I would normally give him a better vote. For example I'd give Jammer a 2 rather than a 4 lol 😂

I'd consider a 4 an upvote in Jammer's case.
2018-03-19 09:16
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
it is for most of the mainstream shit released these days
2018-03-19 09:48
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
The scene is dying anyway!!!1!
2018-03-19 09:50
Linus

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 596
For the record ... I was kidding.

Anyway, I am pretty sure disabling anonymous voting will reduce the number of votes to the point they won't mean a thing at all anymore.

I vote anonymously because I just don't need even more drama in my life and I don't feel like having to discuss or even defend my taste. I can openly say I DO vote for my groups and groupmates, too, why wouldn't I?
2018-03-19 09:52
Shine

Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 213
Quoting LMan
The scene is dying anyway!!!1!

The last one turns off the light... like we usually say in Germany. :D
2018-03-19 10:08
Moloch

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1743
Quoting Linus
I vote anonymously because I just don't need even more drama in my life and I don't feel like having to discuss or even defend my taste. I can openly say I DO vote for my groups and groupmates, too, why wouldn't I?

Just quoting as this needs to be repeated
2018-03-19 10:21
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Guys, voting system "is as is" on CSDB. Fuck it and enjoy the brilliant music submitted for this compo.
+ BIG FUCKS to all cheaters!
BTW I'm in heaven listening to all of your great music guys =)
So congratulations for the winners!
Here are the results:

1 Skypeople by LMan/Jeroen Tel
2 ReTriggered by Jammer
3 $11 Heaven by LMan/Jeroen Tel
4 Broken Vinyl for $11 by psych858o
5 Your Time is Running Thin by Linus
6 Eine Kleine $11 Musik by Shogoon
7 Mellowhouse by LMan
8 Euclid Was Here by Lft
9 Final Boss (final version) by 4-Mat
10 Club Eleven by Wiklund
11 Dr Analban by Jammer
12 11th Wave by Isildur
13 mopsit ovat outoja by dalezy
14 A Moaning Dirge in $11-minor by Peacemaker
15 It's dangerous to go alone by Klegg
16 Triangle My Amelie by F7sus4
17 Viel Blubbe by Spider Jerusalem
18 Bedlam by Gaetano Chiummo
19 17 Patterns by Saul Cross
20 Triagonal by Saul Cross
21 Matematikmaskinoperatör by Spandex
22 Jellica 11$ Music by Jellica


Places 4,5,6 have the same amount of points, so I decided to put them in alphabetical order. If someone thinks that's unfair, please let me know and I'll change all of them to the 5th place.
Because of high quality of all the tunes I decided to put all of them on Bandcamp release. Release soon ;)
2018-03-19 10:30
Shine

Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 213
Congratulations to all of you!!! :D
2018-03-19 10:41
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Merci beaucoup! Congrats to everyone, and thanks Isildur for the awesome compo. This was massive fun, and the results are amazing and surprising.
2018-03-19 11:08
Shogoon

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 3
Wowz!
Thanks to all participants, and most of all, thank You guys for your votes - it means that you still care about our beloved C64.
Finally, I just wanted to say one more thing - mr.4mat, great tune, now it's time to make cool symphonic instrumentation of it, can I? :D
2018-03-19 11:26
Linus

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 596
Quote:
Places 4,5,6 have the same amount of points, so I decided to put them in alphabetical order. If someone thinks that's unfair, please let me know and I'll change all of them to the 5th place.


Yes please, I can't stand the thought of Psycho beating me in a compo. A black mark in my career :( Should have downvoted his tune when there still was time. Sigh! :D
2018-03-19 11:34
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Thanks to all and cograts to the winners! <3 4mat ended up way too low imho.
2018-03-19 11:53
F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 14
The entries were so good that the gap between 1st and 22nd is, in most cases, almost cosmetic.

It was a great fun to do this, thanks everyone!
2018-03-19 12:03
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Quote: Quote:
Places 4,5,6 have the same amount of points, so I decided to put them in alphabetical order. If someone thinks that's unfair, please let me know and I'll change all of them to the 5th place.


Yes please, I can't stand the thought of Psycho beating me in a compo. A black mark in my career :( Should have downvoted his tune when there still was time. Sigh! :D


Ok, the results has changed a bit, but I think in a good way ;)
2018-03-19 13:11
WAVE

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 13
What an amazing compo this has been. So many technically and musically awesome tracks! Really inspirational to see how high the quality is of many of the tracks! On behalf of LMan and myself, thanks for your appreciation for the songs we composed/created/engineered. :)

Special shout-out to Jammer for the amazing ReTriggered track and 4-Mat for his -super atmospheric- track Final Boss. I had it on loop for like 30 minutes at some point without noticing! :)

All with all, an amazing feat from all contestants. Next up $21 compo?... or to keep it at the Maniacs of NOISE level, a $81 compo? xD
2018-03-19 13:21
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 758
Quoting WAVE
or to keep it at the Maniacs of NOISE level, a $81 compo? xD

Challenge accepted! -\o/-\o/-
2018-03-19 13:40
Linus

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 596
Quote: Quoting WAVE
or to keep it at the Maniacs of NOISE level, a $81 compo? xD

Challenge accepted! -\o/-\o/-


Same here, let's go!
2018-03-19 13:45
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Please select a GENEROUS deadline :D
2018-03-19 13:48
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
tomorrow noon. get cracking!
2018-03-19 14:00
F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 14
Quote: Please select a GENEROUS deadline :D

01 Jan 2020 - Deadline
31 Dec 2019 - Organizers' mailbox: "Can you extend the deadline, please? There was not enough time!"

;-)
2018-03-19 14:40
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Hence asking for sufficient time beforehand.
2018-03-19 15:18
Mr Ammo

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 104
Quoting Isildur
Guys, voting system "is as is" on CSDB. Fuck it and enjoy the brilliant music submitted for this compo.
+ BIG FUCKS to all cheaters!
BTW I'm in heaven listening to all of your great music guys =)
So congratulations for the winners!
Here are the results:

[snip]

Places 4,5,6 have the same amount of points, so I decided to put them in alphabetical order.


Can you please also post the total score per entry? You seem to have forgotten to post these and only posted the place the tunes ended on.
2018-03-19 15:22
F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 14
There's always someone missing the train, even with 2020 deadline.

But $81, huh? Sounds like fun. Go-go-go!
Poor iAN, though! ;-)
2018-03-19 17:00
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Quote: Quoting Isildur
Guys, voting system "is as is" on CSDB. Fuck it and enjoy the brilliant music submitted for this compo.
+ BIG FUCKS to all cheaters!
BTW I'm in heaven listening to all of your great music guys =)
So congratulations for the winners!
Here are the results:

[snip]

Places 4,5,6 have the same amount of points, so I decided to put them in alphabetical order.


Can you please also post the total score per entry? You seem to have forgotten to post these and only posted the place the tunes ended on.


Of course, here it is:
2018-03-19 19:49
Adam

Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 202
Quote: So Adam, since you won't stop calling names. I have to ask you directly. Are you talking to me? At least you began your rant by quoting me.

Fortunately this is a written conversation, anyone can read what was really said. Actually, please scour the web. CSDb, Youtube, Remix64, everywhere. If you find any instance of me complaining about receiving a bad vote, please quote me here.


it was directed at -everybody- on this site. stop taking things so damn personally. xD
2018-03-19 19:58
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 63
Well it wasn't clear, thus I made it a habit to bluntly ask. Thanks for clearing it up.
2018-03-20 05:53
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 786
So many excellent entries, thanks all, especially Isildur for organising.

Just in case the image hosting ever falls over on that full results table in comment #139, here it is as text, verbatim:
 1, Skypeople by LMan/Jeroen Tel,                9.6,  9.8,  19.4
 2, ReTriggered by Jammer,                       9.5,  9.8,  19.3
 3, $11 Heaven by LMan/Jeroen Tel,               9.5,  9.6,  19.1
 4, Broken Vinyl for $11 by psych858o,           9.4,  9.6,  19.0
 5, Your Time is Running Thin by Linus,          9.4,  9.6,  19.0
 6, Eine Kleine $11 Musik by Shogoon,            9.3,  9.7,  19.0
 7, Mellowhouse by LMan,                         9.4,  9.5,  18.9
 8, Euclid Was Here by Lft,                      9.1,  9.8,  18.9
 9, Final Boss (final version) by 4-Mat,         9.3,  9.4,  18.7
10, Club Eleven by Wiklund,                      9.1,  9.3,  18.4
11, Dr Analban by Jammer,                        8.6,  9.3,  17.9
12, 11th Wave by Isildur,                        8.8,  8.9,  17.7
13, mopsit ovat outoja by dalezy,                8.4,  9.0,  17.4
14, A Moaning Dirge in $11-minor by Peacemaker,  8.4,  9.0,  17.4
15, It's dangerous to go alone by Klegg,         8.2,  8.1,  16.3
16, Triangle My Amelie by F7sus4,                7.1,  8.9,  16.0
17, Viel Blubbe by Spider Jerusalem,             7.6,  8.0,  15.6
18, Bedlam by Gaetano Chiummo,                   7.4,  8.0,  15.4
19, 17 Patterns by Saul Cross,                   7.8,  7.1,  14.9
20, Triagonal by Saul Cross,                     7.1,  7.7,  14.8
21, Matematikmaskinoperatör by Spandex,          6.9,  7.2,  14.1
22, Jellica 11$ Music by Jellica,                6.7,  7.2,  13.9
2018-03-20 05:56
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 786
Gotta say though, Dr Analban and Mopsit Ovat Outoja were robbed!

Both were definite top four material IMO ;) (rounded out by Skypeople and Mellowhouse for me)
2018-03-20 06:01
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 786
(oh, first two numeric columns in that table are "CSDb rating" and "Public")

..and also props to Jammer as coorganizer, by the looks of things.
2018-03-20 08:53
spider-j

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 166
Congrats to da winnerz & thanks to the organizers!

And of course kudos to all participants: We got very interesting pieces of music out of that triangle-limit.

@CSDb voting: tbh all competitions that I took part in that used the so often critisized CSDb voting system never produced such weird results as I've seen at some parties ;-) It seems to work surprisingly well after all.
2018-03-20 11:31
Isildur

Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
Thank you for all kind words :)
So guys how about $11 compo next year?
2018-03-20 13:02
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
spider-j: at parties its even much more valid - if you want to win, bring your friends. thats why trsi has about 500 members afterall, right? =D
2018-03-20 13:47
Mr Ammo

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 104
Quoting Isildur
Of course, here it is:

Nice!
Interesting, is there a specific reason why you added the 'public' (= non-anonymous) votes to the CSDb rating? These are already included (together with the anonymous votes) in the CSDb rating scores.
2018-03-20 13:48
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 786
Double the weight for Public votes!

/christopherjam is disenfranchised by this blatant discrimination
2018-03-20 20:29
F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 14
@ChristopherJam: It's quite the opposite. Allowing people to stay anonymous encourages pussy-voting (aka hate). To counter the impact of such behavior, the weight of public votes is doubled. We wouldn't have that kind of dilemma if all voting was made open/public.
2018-03-20 20:39
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
bullshit. actually that chart shows quite well that counting public votes only doesnt really change anything - except the number of votes.

*adding* those two numbers makes no sense whatsoever in any case :=)
2018-03-20 20:51
iAN CooG

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1892
facepalm
2018-03-20 22:31
Mr Ammo

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 104
Quoting F7sus4
@ChristopherJam: It's quite the opposite. Allowing people to stay anonymous encourages pussy-voting (aka hate). To counter the impact of such behavior, the weight of public votes is doubled. We wouldn't have that kind of dilemma if all voting was made open/public.

Please look at it this way: Non-anonymous voting encourages the average person to vote what's socially desirable / acceptable. People need to be given the freedom to vote whatever they want without the possibility of repercussions.
2018-03-21 00:10
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8518
the only ppl who repeat this "if votes were public we didnt have this problem" again and again are those who are butthurt by votes that dont meet the expatations of their inflated ego. the problem isnt anonymous downvoting - the problem is always the number of votes. counting public votes only, which then would be much less, would result in an even more useless result.
2018-03-21 05:40
Moloch

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1743
This competition is over and the results are posted, the rest of the conversation should be handled in another thread.
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