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Forums > CSDb Entries > Release id #166930 : Yoomp!64 +3PD
2018-08-02 23:35
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1695
Release id #166930 : Yoomp!64 +3PD

Moved the discussion to the place for discussions. :)

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 2 August 2018
Backup board is invoked if one of the main boards is down during the whole 24h. How would it make sense otherwise? If Reflections was down one hour 03 in the morning just when you tried to upload your crack, the rest of the groups wouldn't notice, and lose just because one board was down for some time during the 24h. 24h rule must mean 24h. If one board is gone for 24h, the backup board goes into effect. That is logical to me. Especially as the race isn't over until 24h have passed.

If two or three (our four?) boards all have hickups during the 24h you mean there are no boards to be counted? Your view of the rules does not make sense. I will count the boards and the releases after 24h have passed. That will show who won the race.

User Comment
Submitted by Jazzcat [PM] on 2 August 2018
We were first on all boards and sites initially. During that time both Antidote and The Hidden were down, according to the rules, the backup site RapidFire is then invoked and we were first there (and Reflections) thus we were first on the majority of boards using the 24 hour rule. Regards. Note: you cannot re-invoke downed boards. When they are down, backup is in play.

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 2 August 2018
Antidote and The Hidden were down for some time, but came up within the counted 24h when we tried to upload our crack, and we were able to be first on both. We also went with Reflections and the backup BBS Rapidfire, even if the latter is a bit redundant, as we already were first on 2 out of 3 counted boards within the counted 24h. Cheers!
 
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2018-08-06 23:11
Tim

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 459
Jazzcat,

It kept bothering me why you said the G*P version should be labled a preview or beta..

Ok.. so both files differ slightly, that does NOT make the GP version a degraded version of the game.

So why would you want to lable it a preview.. kept bothering me a game.. oh yah.. and then it dawned on me:

From Vandalism online rules:
-------------------
Sales version

A different, enhanced or official version of a game that was released before. Normally it is the official version made by the producer themselves. Sales Versions differ from the original in ways such as extra levels, intro sequence and other enhancements. This includes previews also. They will only receive one point for something special. However if the Sales Version is extremely different from the original release, it will receive full first release or NTSC/PAL import points.
-------------------

So..

Remind me.. What does a sales version score in points if it barely has any enhancements?
2018-08-06 23:23
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 957
when looking at the beta it matches to the gp version.

can email you the files if interested? edit: one file differs majorly, not just some bytes.
2018-08-06 23:36
TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 514
Quote: or it could be defined as what it is: the first release :)

THIS

believing in anything else (especially that twisted BBS stuff which aims at counting only an inner circle of extreme eggheads and excluding/ignoring everyone sane/else) would make me even crazier than I am already.

For the time being, we've got a good laugh when we appear in any statwanking on place ten with minus points :P
2018-08-06 23:46
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 64
I've looked over the binary diff sent to me by Jazzcat. Thanks for that. It did seem odd that Jazzcat had all those files - it made sense that he had the Onslaught and G*P cracks, and the clean Itch download, but the folder labelled as "preview" struck me as odd... then I realised the RGCD connection that people are talking about here.

There were 3 files mentioned that differed:-

- one file differed by 2 bytes - and those had changed just by 16 each... I've no idea what that meant but it could be anything from the timing of some transition effect to a preset highscore.. who knows? Without delving into it more I can't say...

- one file that was "missing" was actually embedded into the PRG. This was probably a loading screen or something like that?

- one file differed quite a bit. The file's just 1k in size... this could be anything. I know that with Delirious 11, every single time that the demo was built, I'd generate some noise patterns for such as the initial fade-in of the demo. So I could generate 2 versions of the demo within 5 seconds of each other, almost identical, but there'd be quite a bit of pre-generated data that would differ in ways that nobody would notice or care about.

My point with this last thing is that, yes, there could be a huge difference between the two versions.. or there could be no discernible difference at all. BUT... if nobody can see any difference, and if no difference can be pointed out by people that work at RGCD, can the difference really be important enough to claim that one version is a "preview"?

Note that I haven't spoken to the cracker(s) about this, or the programmer of Yoomp, I've just delved into the binaries because this thread was doing my head in.

In summary, unless it can be proven otherwise, I'd argue that the G*P release is -not- a preview.

REGARDLESS.. all of the above seems moot since the original "argument" still stands as to which release was "first". That all comes down to the rules ... as Groepaz rightly pointed out, CSDB doesn't have such rules of it's own - so doesn't actually need to abide by anyone's rules..

SUMMARY.. nothing is resolved?
2018-08-06 23:52
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 957
Thanks for checking Raistlin! I guess the point being is that the GP version matches to the beta version I emailed. Usually beta gets treated as preview here.
2018-08-06 23:58
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 64
"I guess the point being is that the GP version matches to the beta version I emailed. Usually beta gets treated as preview here."

I work in the game industry and have for 24 years.. I realise C64's a little different of course.. but a "beta" version would usually be significantly different to a released one...

Only somebody at RGCD could tell us the real difference I think - but it might be a little strange to ask a publisher to settle an argument between the groups cracking their game, even if one of those groups includes their employees ;-)

Seriously though, is RGCD able to state what the difference is between the two versions? That would settle this - and the lack of that information makes me wonder as, as far as everybody can tell, the G*P version plays identically. If it's something like "we fixed a crash bug that would occur after 24 hours of play" then I'd argue that that isn't sufficient to call one version a preview/beta ;)
2018-08-07 00:04
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 957
Well, how things have worked in the scene. When a beta is used, it is marked as preview. no more than that. a bit different to the commercial scene but it is the crack scene. anyway, discussed with several guys now and will mark gp version as a beta. ons version as final and first by several hours. cheers.
2018-08-07 00:27
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 64
"how things have worked in the scene"
.. is that publishers can have the final say?

"When a beta is used"
.. there will be a discernible difference between the two versions. Demonstrating a binary difference should never be enough.

What has the scene come to that we're negotiating with the publisher about where a release originating from .. and that someone working at that publisher is fighting over a "first release" tag for a game that they themselves have published..?

I saw that "Phantom of the Blasteroids" wasn't cracked by G*P, just to give an example, because .. well .. who would crack their own game? IMO, it looks lame.

Just my two cents .. I'll go back to coding now ;-)
2018-08-07 00:28
iAN CooG

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1997
I have obtained the preview and final release and analyzed it a bit, compared them with ONS and GP releases. This was my live comment on chat @ #c-64. Some others commented, but i changed their handles to protect them, i'm posting private convos so they can't sue me. :D
[00:08] <iAN_CooG> main proof of gp using the preview (which is dated back 2018 january) is the sysline of the main prg =)
[00:08] <iAN_CooG> 160 SYS02062
[00:08] <iAN_CooG> instead of 10 SYS2061
[00:15] <iAN_CooG> and another thing the preview doesn't do is stopping restore by altering fffa/b vectors =)
[00:16] <iAN_CooG> easily testable on gp version
[00:19] <iAN_CooG> the preview does this useless 0314/5 redirection
[00:19] <iAN_CooG> C512  A9 68     LDA #$68
[00:19] <iAN_CooG> C514  8D 14 03  STA $0314
[00:19] <iAN_CooG> C517  A9 C5     LDA #$C5
[00:19] <iAN_CooG> C519  8D 15 03  STA $0315
[00:19] <iAN_CooG> C51C  A5 01     LDA $01
[00:19] <iAN_CooG> C51E  29 FC     AND #$FC
[00:19] <iAN_CooG> C520  09 02     ORA #$02
[00:19] <iAN_CooG> C522  85 01     STA $01
[00:19] <iAN_CooG> removed from final
[00:20] <xx_yyyy> does it make the game different?
[00:20] <xx_yyyy> when you'd be playing the game?
[00:20] <iAN_CooG> i have not tested every single different bit, the point is that GP didn't use the final release build, but an early build
[00:21] <abcd> even if the game is near identical, technically it was the preview build
[00:21] <xx_yyyy> in the end the question is: "does this matter?"
[00:21] <iAN_CooG> to be fair, yes.
[00:21] <123> the knowledge of it will gnaw at your soul in the darkness of everlasting nights!
[00:21] <xx_yyyy> haha :)
[00:21] <iAN_CooG> gp released a preview, ons the final retail version
[00:21] <xx_yyyy> iAN_CooG - ok then!
[00:22] <iAN_CooG> i'm done with the analysis
[00:22] <iAN_CooG> deleting both and going on
2018-08-07 00:35
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1695
Quote: Well, how things have worked in the scene. When a beta is used, it is marked as preview. no more than that. a bit different to the commercial scene but it is the crack scene. anyway, discussed with several guys now and will mark gp version as a beta. ons version as final and first by several hours. cheers.

Do as you wish in VN, of course. Read the whole story in the next issue of the Propaganda List, all details revealed, delivered to you on time, 1st of October. As I am biased regarding this release I will let others judge the releases in question, of course. Cheers.
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