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Forums > CSDb Entries > Release id #166930 : Yoomp!64 +3PD
2018-08-02 23:35
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1766
Release id #166930 : Yoomp!64 +3PD

Moved the discussion to the place for discussions. :)

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 2 August 2018
Backup board is invoked if one of the main boards is down during the whole 24h. How would it make sense otherwise? If Reflections was down one hour 03 in the morning just when you tried to upload your crack, the rest of the groups wouldn't notice, and lose just because one board was down for some time during the 24h. 24h rule must mean 24h. If one board is gone for 24h, the backup board goes into effect. That is logical to me. Especially as the race isn't over until 24h have passed.

If two or three (our four?) boards all have hickups during the 24h you mean there are no boards to be counted? Your view of the rules does not make sense. I will count the boards and the releases after 24h have passed. That will show who won the race.

User Comment
Submitted by Jazzcat [PM] on 2 August 2018
We were first on all boards and sites initially. During that time both Antidote and The Hidden were down, according to the rules, the backup site RapidFire is then invoked and we were first there (and Reflections) thus we were first on the majority of boards using the 24 hour rule. Regards. Note: you cannot re-invoke downed boards. When they are down, backup is in play.

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 2 August 2018
Antidote and The Hidden were down for some time, but came up within the counted 24h when we tried to upload our crack, and we were able to be first on both. We also went with Reflections and the backup BBS Rapidfire, even if the latter is a bit redundant, as we already were first on 2 out of 3 counted boards within the counted 24h. Cheers!
 
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2018-08-08 10:19
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1766
Quote: if this thread goes on till you guys agree on something I guess it won't be closed before 2075 or so... :)

Lol. :D Well. After discussing the issue with the game coder it was clear that the only difference between the original we had, and the one Ons had, was the Restore-fix. In my world that little thing should not be enough to define our release as a preview, as it is the full game with all bells and whistles.
2018-08-08 10:28
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1766
Quote: So your version was not the final build Hedning?

You are the guy being part of RGCD - you should know. What I am saying is that we got the full game, completed and fully working, and then a Restore fix was delivered, which obviously is not present in our version. Still a preview is defined as a non finished game. Our version is still the full game. Just do not press restore. If such small difference is supposed to define what a full game and a preview is, I'm not following the logic anymore.
2018-08-08 10:32
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 110
"I am sure the major byte differences are not just to disable Restore either"

.. so if it's found that the byte differences are inconsequential, eg. if they're just random numbers, are you saying that the GP release, which differs only in the RESTORE key "problem", is a full release?

We should ask the coder. From what I can see, there's one file, the ESQ file, that's changed "significantly". So much so that I have a theory about what it is .. random numbers, obviously quite useful in game development ... the other file that's changed has only had 2 bytes changed - this will be the RESTORE key fix.

If it turns out that it's a set of numbers that changes every time the game is built, or is otherwise unimportant (ie. the 2 versions can be happily interchanged without anyone seeing any real difference), can this whole joke be put to bed? We can then get back to arguing about which release was first - and whether Onslaught were right to ignore the rules when a BBS was down for X number of minutes/hours.
2018-08-08 10:54
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1766
Quote: "I am sure the major byte differences are not just to disable Restore either"

.. so if it's found that the byte differences are inconsequential, eg. if they're just random numbers, are you saying that the GP release, which differs only in the RESTORE key "problem", is a full release?

We should ask the coder. From what I can see, there's one file, the ESQ file, that's changed "significantly". So much so that I have a theory about what it is .. random numbers, obviously quite useful in game development ... the other file that's changed has only had 2 bytes changed - this will be the RESTORE key fix.

If it turns out that it's a set of numbers that changes every time the game is built, or is otherwise unimportant (ie. the 2 versions can be happily interchanged without anyone seeing any real difference), can this whole joke be put to bed? We can then get back to arguing about which release was first - and whether Onslaught were right to ignore the rules when a BBS was down for X number of minutes/hours.


Onslaught have their rules in VN, and the rules in Propaganda does not differ much from them. However we interpret 24 hour rule slightly different. For Jazzcat it seems that even if a board is down for some hour (even minutes) or so during these 24 hours, it is enough to disqualify it for the complete 24h. For me 24 hours are 24 hours. After 24 hours have passed, you check the boards and can easily see who was first on the majority of the counted boards. The race goes on for 24 hours, and I will not disqualify a board just because it's down exactly when I want to upload. It would be convenient for me if I could just ignore the boards that are down exactly when I want to upload, but it's not fair to the others that play this little game; thus: Propaganda's 24 hour rule means 24 hours, after that time frame it will be absolutely clear which group was fastest and had the stamina and will. If a board is down during this whole time (24h), the release won't be there anyhows, but should be on the backup board, which then counts instead. Easy peasy.
2018-08-08 11:50
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 958
hi guys,
so was your original not the final build? (still waiting on the answer). we know you got the beta. based on this alone you did not have the final (spin the tale how you want). and based on this you were not first. easy peasy.

secondly, the 24 hour rule is about who is first even with down times. in this case hidden and antidote were down for many hours and as such the fallback is used.

thirdly, as you don't seem to admit you didnt use the final build. we can mark our version as the 100% then.
2018-08-08 12:04
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 110
Ok, now I'm confused...

On the one hand you're saying that the G*P version was a preview ... on the other, that Onslaught's is a 100% fix of that preview?

The thing is, if you can't decide for yourself, why are you trying to convince others?

The clear answer to me is:-

1) Neither G*P or ONS version are previews.
- they're clearly not previews. If I was looking at Yoomp! in, say, 2028, and saw that there's a preview there I'd think "cool, let's take a look at this preview to see what they changed for the final version" followed by "this is dumb, the preview is near-identical to the final release? WTF?";

2) The ONS version could be considered a 100% version since, yes, it includes a fix;

3) The 24 hour rule is argued separately... it sounds like there're 2 sets of rules here for each mag. CSDB has agreed to neither of these..

a) Vandalism's rule that basically ANY of the listed BBS's can be used in the 24hours and that the "fallback" word should be removed from those rules to avoid confusion (if I say that a BBS was down for 2 minutes, nobody can possibly verify that I'm telling the truth - so there's no point at all in having some BBSs ranked as "fallbacks");

b) Propaganda's rule that 24hours means "24 hours" and that fallback means "fallback".
2018-08-08 12:08
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 110
IMO, and I say this not knowing which way this would go, whether they'd agree or not ... we should draft in a proper old-school cracker to decide.

Mr.Z for example, since he's currently the top cracker on CSDB?

https://csdb.dk/toplist.php?type=scener&subtype=%2816%29&submit..

It just feels to me like this should be clear cut ... I'm scratching my head wondering what on earth is going on and why such a simple thing turned into a huge debate. It's worse than BREXIT.
2018-08-08 12:11
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 958
hehe, basically there is several faults with the gp version. anyone of them by itself is a disqualification. for VN we will be calling the 24 hour rule. the other points are just further consolidating that same outcome.
2018-08-08 12:13
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 958
Quote: IMO, and I say this not knowing which way this would go, whether they'd agree or not ... we should draft in a proper old-school cracker to decide.

Mr.Z for example, since he's currently the top cracker on CSDB?

https://csdb.dk/toplist.php?type=scener&subtype=%2816%29&submit..

It just feels to me like this should be clear cut ... I'm scratching my head wondering what on earth is going on and why such a simple thing turned into a huge debate. It's worse than BREXIT.


the rules being referred to are well after mr.z. perhaps consulting the person who has documented the first release 'list' for the longest time in the scene might be more in context?
2018-08-08 12:17
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 110
*BANG HEAD*

"basically there is several faults with the gp version" .. you should be in the Conservative government, seriously .. can you tell me what faults there are other than the RESTORE key problem? As in, tell me the faults, not tell me that binary differences are showing up in a file (half the old-school cracks would fail if that were a criteria, all IFFL'ed cracks for example).

"for VN we will be calling the 24 hour rule" .. in what way does 24 hours come into your rule when you're saying that the fallbacks can be used if there're just minutes of downtime? It makes zero sense. Can you explain how "24" comes into it?
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