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2019-04-01 23:22

Didi

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 478

Release id #176410 : Propaganda List #1 2019

Quite funny: If the coder is member of the releasing group and supplies the original, it gets no points here (example: The Age of Heroes). If the musician of the game is member in the releasing group, it's OK (example: Nono Pixie Preview 4). C'mon. Get real! Crackers have always used "connections" to get hand on the originals first. Usually you did not even ask for the source. You just respected that they had it first, point. The rule here is not thought through until end and does not respect tradition IMO.

2019-04-01 23:37

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4574

Trust me. We thought about this, and I believe you are reacting too fast here.

We gave points to your TND supplied releases, as you actually did not make those games, even if you apparently have close ties to Richard, helping him with ntsc-fixing and whatnot. Right? We don't hit down on "connections". We will mention them, of course, if we know about them. Crackers never had high morals.

Cracking the game you made yourself, however, can't actually, in any sense, be seen as a real crack. It's ridiculous. You can't crack your own code. As pointed out in the rules:

"No points will be handed out for releases where the cracker group made the game in question, or where a member of the group coded or were the main architect of the game being first released. For now we will still count it as a (lame) form of first release, but we want to award skill, speed, effort and challenge, and cracking your own game has nothing of this. Cracking your own games is concidered harmful to the first release scene and the spirit of it."

This is however not the place for debating this. You are welcome to discuss it with the ones that really care (because this thread will be filled with trolling and moaning in 3.. 2... 1...). You are more than welcome to contact us.

2019-04-02 00:58

E$G

Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 786

@Hedning: you also invited me to contact you (I mean leaders of the rulez). I wish I had because it would have been nice to propose something to improve this system, letting the groups to play with fun and providing good quality release. Readin' 1.5 rulez I'm happy not to have wasted my time. I let you create rulez impossible to be respected or totally nonsense. Paper stars are less valuable than the gold shining ones. Groups and sceners will be pissed of soon, demotivation will overhelm patience and boring system. Only the release as it is will survive.

2019-04-02 08:33

Dr.Strange

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 100

Quote: @Hedning: you also invited me to contact you (I mean leaders of the rulez). I wish I had because it would have been nice to propose something to improve this system, letting the groups to play with fun and providing good quality release. Readin' 1.5 rulez I'm happy not to have wasted my time. I let you create rulez impossible to be respected or totally nonsense. Paper stars are less valuable than the gold shining ones. Groups and sceners will be pissed of soon, demotivation will overhelm patience and boring system. Only the release as it is will survive.

@E$G: Are you seroius? The new rules are impossible to be respected? So, are you saying that if we give 0pts to groups cracking their own games, that will piss off everyone? Can you explain to me why first releasing a game you coded is a good thing for the scene? Saying that, I know we did the same time ago and I take full responsibilty for it.

2019-04-02 08:53

Didi

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 478

Crackers never cared about the source. Usual path of a crack release:
1. Grab the game/preview, wherever you got it.
2. Do with it what you think you need to do with it.
3. Tag your work and be proud of it.

I just point out that the source of a crack has never been of any importance and it is tradition to be this way.

IMO it would be dumb not to take advantage of the fact that you have game producers in your own rows which are willing to give you the game first. Not taking advantage of this is a personal decision but has nothing to do with traditional pirate spirit.

2019-04-02 09:02

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4574

<Post edited by hedning on 2/4-2019 09:08>

I agree that the source is of no big importance, except when you crack games that you actually produced in house - in some cases even by the same coder that coded the very game "cracked". In these last cases I rather respect this view: Cherry vs. Scene.

2019-04-02 09:07

TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2047

Sorry, I really(!) wanted to keep out of this drama as I know that this is the only reasonable way to deal with madmen immune to any logic, but as Hedning phantasized about HF/MYD conspiracy to "mock" the first release scene,
I must state that this set of rulez plus arbitrary flags etc. here on CSDb also controlled by the same person(s),
makes it so utterly ridiculous/real satire that no mockery is necessary.

Making HF top of the bottom due to minus points for jewel releases and zero points due to "cracking own games" is simply ridiculous. As Didi says, making a difference between musician/graphician/tester/coder suppyling whatever group is nitpicking.

Also I am not Achim, I did not get the source code of TAOH nor a memory map but only the release as .D64, crunched and everything, and yeah, way earlier than Sun as I freely admit. So if we had just kept secret who supplied the original or created some dummy handle, it would have granted us points? Nonsense!

I'm not "pissed" (not more than before) as Enrico says but amused. However, the feeling grows that rules will always be changed in favor of very few people. Now we even bothered to make people do the BBS dance for us, then a new rule is created, WTF. If(!) we cared, that would not really contribute to motivate to take part in this so-called race. In fact, we're not eagerly planning doing any more first release stuff than in former years, and we have zero ambition to be in some top 3 or 5 or 10.

Maybe HF and MYD and a few other remaining sane people really should do some "conspiracy" in form of own lists without nonsense. Main reason against that is, I don't give a damn.

2019-04-02 09:17

Didi

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 478

@hedning: Interesting move of Cherry Soft in the past. Result shows that it did not work as the only existing crack is from F4CG. :D

@TheRyk: You are right. It is easy to obfuscate the source path if you want to or do not mention it at all. So the Propa Staff may suggest it but they have no proof. ;)

Well, release list editors have always bent rules to their favour, why should it be different today? That's some kind of tradition, too. :p

2019-04-02 09:27

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4574

Quote: Sorry, I really(!) wanted to keep out of this drama as I know that this is the only reasonable way to deal with madmen immune to any logic, but as Hedning phantasized about HF/MYD conspiracy to "mock" the first release scene,
I must state that this set of rulez plus arbitrary flags etc. here on CSDb also controlled by the same person(s),
makes it so utterly ridiculous/real satire that no mockery is necessary.

Making HF top of the bottom due to minus points for jewel releases and zero points due to "cracking own games" is simply ridiculous. As Didi says, making a difference between musician/graphician/tester/coder suppyling whatever group is nitpicking.

Also I am not Achim, I did not get the source code of TAOH nor a memory map but only the release as .D64, crunched and everything, and yeah, way earlier than Sun as I freely admit. So if we had just kept secret who supplied the original or created some dummy handle, it would have granted us points? Nonsense!

I'm not "pissed" (not more than before) as Enrico says but amused. However, the feeling grows that rules will always be changed in favor of very few people. Now we even bothered to make people do the BBS dance for us, then a new rule is created, WTF. If(!) we cared, that would not really contribute to motivate to take part in this so-called race. In fact, we're not eagerly planning doing any more first release stuff than in former years, and we have zero ambition to be in some top 3 or 5 or 10.

Maybe HF and MYD and a few other remaining sane people really should do some "conspiracy" in form of own lists without nonsense. Main reason against that is, I don't give a damn.

The first release flag here on csdb is meaningless, and should be removed, or better specified. I am very clear that I do not mix my csdb moderatorship with GP stuff. If you think I do, and that is a problem (please point out examples), I will be the first to resign from moderation. Trust me. I would rather work only with organizing GP and writing Propalist, than holding on to a csdb moderator status that you think is corrupt. But we should keep to the topic:

This new rule also means GP won't release games made by Mermaid/Shadow/Wertstahl etc, of course. We have done that before, and actually, I don't feel that is something I am proud of.

With taunting I mean the "We don't care about the boards and the silly rules" followed by the opposite reactions.

2019-04-02 09:29

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4574

Quote: @hedning: Interesting move of Cherry Soft in the past. Result shows that it did not work as the only existing crack is from F4CG. :D

@TheRyk: You are right. It is easy to obfuscate the source path if you want to or do not mention it at all. So the Propa Staff may suggest it but they have no proof. ;)

Well, release list editors have always bent rules to their favour, why should it be different today? That's some kind of tradition, too. :p

In what way is this in our favour? It stops us from releasing games by Mermaid/Shadow/Wertstahl etc etc. We have more games coming, and we won't crack them either. Laxity has nothing to lose on this, btw.

2019-04-02 09:35

Didi

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 478

My arguments have nothing to do with Laxity losing or winning anything. I just pronounce to respect tradition and cracking tradition does not care about the source of a crack (unless you recreck ;p), simple as that.

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