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Forums > CSDb Entries > Release id #178287 : Robots Rumble +6D
2019-05-28 22:06
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4550
Release id #178287 : Robots Rumble +6D

Discussion moved from Comments to here:

User Comment
Submitted by ZeSmasher [PM] on 28 May 2019
10 print "use the forum for this kind of discussion"
20 print "or better don't use it, same lame topic was discussed 10000 times already"
30 rem "it's a cool game! congratz!"
40 goto 10
run

User Comment
Submitted by Jazzcat [PM] on 28 May 2019
Dang, could not edit my comment.

Wanted to say that if the game coder wants to train their game that is fine by me.

E$G + HF: ignore the whiners and keep doing nice releases, if you want, add a HF intro, will make it clearer for some, if not: that's fine, you make the decision :D

Oh, and when you catch up with Adam for a beer, make sure to look me up as well! :D

User Comment
Submitted by Jazzcat [PM] on 28 May 2019
Agree with Didi, I do not recognise this as a HF crack due to no intro or tagging in place. Otherwise, nice version. Ignore the whiners otherwise.

User Comment
Submitted by E$G [PM] on 28 May 2019
@Zyron you applied a logic in your answer but as one of the "fastest trainer maker", together with Didi, Faayd and few others you will agree with me that you don't need to be the game coder to easily find at glance where the code has to be changed, the free mem where to put the selection and to link an intro. The pain comes later, intro can leave some dirty bytes and trainers can drunk the code with unexpected crash. So it's not so easy as it seems and 1 is not fair. For all the groups that spend time on c64 for the scene & own satisfaction!

@Adam: a kiss back to you and a beer when I'll visit the land downunder!

@Hedning: I can read Hokuto Force in the dox as DM is a label of and since dox & trainers are not in the other version for me it's an HF effort.
I usually vote for all the scene releases, each one can see my votes. All that is hidden keep the secret on it, until rulez won't change.

User Comment
Submitted by Dymo [PM] on 28 May 2019
Well, to me it rather feels like a deluxe-version of a game rather than a crack... or orrie with easter eggs already attached...

User Comment
Submitted by Didi [PM] on 28 May 2019
@Mods: If you finally decide to tag this release as Game entry, you may also do with Lala Prologue +4DG and Tenebra Macabre +4D because it's the same circumstances. Both entries are locked.

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 28 May 2019
Adam: You trained the voting system? :O Damn 1337.

User Comment
Submitted by Adam [PM] on 28 May 2019
I voted ten because you're all a bunch of drama queens :)

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 28 May 2019
E$G: "downvoting 1 is killing the scene and minimize the voter's intelligence"... Well.. Look who are automatically voting 10. ;)

User Comment
Submitted by Zyron [PM] on 28 May 2019
When it comes to cracks I give my votes according to the effort made. Training your own source, not even bothering to put an intro on it can hardly be seen as any effort at all. So what kind of votes did you expect to get for this anyway?

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 28 May 2019
It was long ago crackers only used the SYS-line and that is not up to pair with the cracking scene of today. You know this, E$G. This release only exists to keep crackers off, and to avoid a intro in front of it, as Majikeyric hates that. Apart from that I cannot find a HF tag anywhere in the release. Not even in the SYS-line. And am I wrong guessing that the trainers are in the original as well, and just turned on here? Also: no cracker was involved in this release at all to train it. It obviously never left the hands of the game coder. I would argue releasing stuff like this is hurting the spirit of the scene (thus the votes I guess), but you already know where I stand. Zyron is right: this one should be classified as C64 Game as the game coder only made another build of it with trainers included.

User Comment
Submitted by E$G [PM] on 28 May 2019
This is not just the game but a trained version. Rulez set a crack just for a sys line changed... 1001, 9009, 1337, 2 chars, an intro, a cracked by ABC in the main game page. We don't waste our time to claim a 1st that can't be, rulez are always changed. So enjoy & play if you like it, but downvoting 1 is killing the scene and minimize the voter's intelligence, usually a secret vote. Beg to differ.

User Comment
Submitted by Zyron [PM] on 28 May 2019
This is kind of silly. If you're really going to keep doing this, at least do it properly. Hand it over to one of your crackers, link an intro, release it as proper HF cracks - if that is what you want. Right now it's just a different build of the same game made by Digital Monastery.

User Comment
Submitted by E$G [PM] on 28 May 2019
What's wrong with this crack, fully-jeweled trained one? Does the scene wish a usual poor +2? Or it's a matter of 1st release points? Anyway admins&mods can have their amusement break. They can see who is givin' fair votes ;)

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 28 May 2019
Why HF? There is no HF-intro; nothing is changed except a trainer option turned on in the code. I would say this does not qualify as a crack in the database, really. It has nothing to do with the cracking scene or warez scene.

User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin [PM] on 28 May 2019
Didi: ok, understood. So in terms of votes on this release, we’re voting for the quality of crack rather than for the quality of the game..? That’s how it would normally work. It’s a shame as i’d like to see scene games rated fairly here...

User Comment
Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 28 May 2019
not the version competing at the RGCD C64 16KB Cartridge Game Development Competition 2019 because it's not even a cart version, Robots Rumble [16kb cartridge] is.

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 28 May 2019
Didi: exactly why we changed the rules in Propa.

User Comment
Submitted by Majikeyric [PM] on 28 May 2019
TRAINER_MENU=1

User Comment
Submitted by AlexC [PM] on 28 May 2019
So this is not even a dump from crt but probably a reassembly from source?

User Comment
Submitted by Didi [PM] on 28 May 2019
@Raistlin: That was done dozens of time in the past as well.

But as a first release mag editor I would ignore this release as a "crack" because it has no intro linked to it and it seems to be common today that game creators train their games by themselves to spoil the fun for the "crackers" and first release hunters (e.g. Knight Lore, etc.). Add a HF intro and I would accept it as a "crack release" and firstie. This way it is just an extended version of the cartridge release, which adds what did not fit into the size limit.

User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin [PM] on 28 May 2019
Wait... cracking your own game? Such skullduggery might even make Onslaught look like proper crackers ;-)
 
... 33 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....
 
2019-05-28 23:08
Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 510
thanks for moving this to the forum and cleaning the comments linked to the release.
fact #1: the C64 scene is alive, new cool games are released on this prehistoric computer quite often and we are all happy about it!
fact #2: oh wait, not all are happy coz how sceners support the scene vary from scener-a to scener-b. "rules", "1st release", "cracking", "tradition", "points", "votes", "downvotes", "cool", "no, lame!", "you did it too", "blabla", "bloblo", ...
fact #3, despite recurring discussion on fact #2, scener-a keeps doing what he/she likes and scener-b keeps doing what he/she likes. chances someone of us will live long enough to see the day scener-a or scener-b to change his/her minds are equal to zero.
fact #4, CSDbijaDb
2019-05-29 00:37
Dr.Strange

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 100
I have voted 1 because I consider releasing "cracked" version of your own game not a very honourable practice. I have nothing against game, which is actually good. Game has actually a different entry, so votes are clearly directed to the intention behind the release, not the release itself. Because honestly, how can you rate a coder cracking his own games with a 10?
2019-05-29 01:49
E$G

Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 782
@Dr.Strange: weird answer. It's all bound to the honour, but it's not a csdb evaluation parameter. As you know and as I've answered to Zyron, for a skilled cracker, to do a +infinite lives, it's a 3 mins job and to close the crack including intro & dox, it's 5 min (6 for Didi that work with real hw).
All the work & time is to make the trainers work together and the more you put and more you risk the failure. It happened in all cracking groups we belong too. And even if man and machine match together as one the result of manipulating code it takes a lot of time to bring a perfect release.
So to judge a great work provided by Majikeyric in this way it's really a shame. Probably it's a matter of feelings to respect other works. It's not a matter of personal opinion like to vote a demo, a pic or a sid tune. Crack, with trainers, bug fix, ntsc/pal, is perfection, this is a game trained, if it's not a 10, you can have provided at least a 8 for the above reasons, 2 vote less than perfection because it was so easy to get the orrie before all the others.
That's why CSDb gives to all their registered users the opportunity to change their votes. When a man fails or change opinion he can change his vote as many time he wish.
On the other side you can't change feedback words.
Words hurts than a vote and each of us must take his responsability.
Back to votes as ZeSmasher said in his perfect and not prolix summary rarely scener a/b will change his/her minds.
Don't do it for friendship, honour or whatever else, do it for an artist that shared his time for free with us. Next time he can decide to do different things and slowly the scene will die, it's not our aim, we all belong to this big family.
2019-05-29 08:23
Dr.Strange

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 100
@E$G: I am not going to change my vote, as I disagree with what you guys are doing. Simple as that. Cracking your own games - imho - doesn't make you any favour and as you should know, every release has a "political" gravitas on the scene too. At least, this time you guys didn't go for the first release, I am giving you that, but trying to convenience me that a coder (and a group) who thinks it's ok to crack/train your own code it's good, doesn't work for me. Add a protection instead or give it a group you respect to do a fine work, that's what I'd respect as a good scene spirit. Of course, you guys can keep doing what you are doing and this is only my opinion, so feel free to release your own stuff to avoid anyone else "not good enough" to touch your things. Have fun.
2019-05-29 08:53
Majikeyric

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 83
Why I do that :

I coded a game some years ago and spent a big lot of time on it, when I released it, it was cracked at light speed by the usual C64 cracking groups.

All the articles I could read about my game on Retro game sites only talked about and credited the crackers. never mentioning the poor guy behind the game having spent hundred hours on it when the cracker has just trained an unprotected game and intro linked it in 10 minutes.

SO NOW IT'S MY TURN TO SPOIL THE FUN OF CRACKERS.

And I don't care about crack release, if there was a Trained game category I would have adopted it.
First I selected the "C64 Game" category with my previous releases but it is always changed to "C64 Crack" so ....

You can debate as much as you want...
2019-05-29 09:07
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2804
I like that stance, it's what i'd do as well. Release a fully trained version along with the original.

Although i'd also put an intro there with the logo of a fake label. And fuckings to the usual suspects in the scroller, of course. =)
2019-05-29 09:27
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 548
Quote: Why I do that :

I coded a game some years ago and spent a big lot of time on it, when I released it, it was cracked at light speed by the usual C64 cracking groups.

All the articles I could read about my game on Retro game sites only talked about and credited the crackers. never mentioning the poor guy behind the game having spent hundred hours on it when the cracker has just trained an unprotected game and intro linked it in 10 minutes.

SO NOW IT'S MY TURN TO SPOIL THE FUN OF CRACKERS.

And I don't care about crack release, if there was a Trained game category I would have adopted it.
First I selected the "C64 Game" category with my previous releases but it is always changed to "C64 Crack" so ....

You can debate as much as you want...


This makes sense ... though now I wonder why the old releases were relabelled as cracks..? Unless you literally cracked your own games, I would've thought "C64 Game" was the right label..?

That way, although you're not stopping someone essentially adding an intro to the game and claiming it as a crack and first release, you're turning -them- into the lamers for slapping an intro on and doing no further work..?
2019-05-29 09:52
Dr.Strange

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 100
Quote: Why I do that :

I coded a game some years ago and spent a big lot of time on it, when I released it, it was cracked at light speed by the usual C64 cracking groups.

All the articles I could read about my game on Retro game sites only talked about and credited the crackers. never mentioning the poor guy behind the game having spent hundred hours on it when the cracker has just trained an unprotected game and intro linked it in 10 minutes.

SO NOW IT'S MY TURN TO SPOIL THE FUN OF CRACKERS.

And I don't care about crack release, if there was a Trained game category I would have adopted it.
First I selected the "C64 Game" category with my previous releases but it is always changed to "C64 Crack" so ....

You can debate as much as you want...


I guess you are aware you are in a cracking group which does the same to other game devs. Said so, if you don't care about crack releases, you shouldn't be in a cracking group at all. My two cents.
2019-05-29 09:57
Majikeyric

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 83
HF is a big family where people are FREE to do what they want and like the most whatever is it and without any constraints.
And I do what I want .
2019-05-29 10:19
Dr.Strange

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 100
Quote: HF is a big family where people are FREE to do what they want and like the most whatever is it and without any constraints.
And I do what I want .


Scene groups don't work that way and I am surprised HF orgas allow members to do whatever they want without supervision or direction, but if that's your group philosophy, there's not that much to argue here.
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