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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Event id #2967 : 25Hz Music Compo 2020
Welcome to the first and hopefully not the last edition of 25Hz Music Compo!
Basic premise is to create a piece of music with player that updates SID registers at rate of 25Hz or to put it in other words - every 2nd frame. There are very few tunes out there playing at such slow speed but maybe it's the right time to change it? :) Here are couple of examples:
Low Frequency
Half-Funk
Compo rules:
1. No covers and remixes allowed.
2. No upper limit for playtime.
3. No limit of tunes per author but playtime of each has to be at least 2 minutes.
4. Use any editor that allows you to use such playback rate or go for custom player if you need. Goat Tracker surely offers 25Hz playback (Multispeed 0).
Good luck and have fun! <3 |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1821 |
SCNR
NTSC musicians have to PAL? :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Do we have NTSC musicians at all nowadays? :D |
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acrouzet
Registered: May 2020
Posts: 80 |
Some of my covers play at 60hz (using the CIA timer) in order to get more accurate tempos, but are still in PAL. This is just cause SidTracker64 doesn't support NTSC (and all of the players are in PAL anyways). I guess that counts somewhat.
Anyway, neat idea for a compo! I might participate. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Does SidTracker64 support half-speed? |
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Ksubi
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 87 |
I'm looking forward to this compo! Always loved Conrad's tune. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
IMPORTANT MESSAGE:
Results will be based entirely on CSDb votes. There's going to be one week of voting phase after compo time. |
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acrouzet
Registered: May 2020
Posts: 80 |
Quote: Does SidTracker64 support half-speed?
Yes. It strangely supports all whole number frequencies between 25 Hz and 240 Hz, which is why you might find a lot of ST64 tunes with weird CIA timings. (This also presents cool opportunities for tuning multispeed effects to specific keys.) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
defMON can be set to play at half speed, since you can explicitly set the timer value for the timer that drives the player. Maybe most other editors can do that too? |
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McMeatLoaf
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 105 |
Quote: Yes. It strangely supports all whole number frequencies between 25 Hz and 240 Hz, which is why you might find a lot of ST64 tunes with weird CIA timings. (This also presents cool opportunities for tuning multispeed effects to specific keys.)
Makes me wish that Goattracker 2 could support finetuned CIA timings the same way it allows for non-440Hz tunings (which sadly doesn't seem to be used that much). |
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Ray Manta
Registered: Jun 2014
Posts: 10 |
Presume SID Wizard can do half speed :) |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 833 |
Quote: Presume SID Wizard can do half speed :)
Unfortunately not.
But you could go into Vice monitor and add a quick hack like this:
a 0380:
.0380:
lda #$00
eor #$80
sta $0381
bmi $038c
jsr $10d3 <-- (this is the address shown in the "Normal" configuration, might be different on light / bare / extra)
rts
a 1003
.1003:
jmp $0380
... or beg Hermit for another version. ;) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Little question:
Should we allow 25Hz stereo tunes in competition? What do you think, guys? :) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Quote: Little question:
Should we allow 25Hz stereo tunes in competition? What do you think, guys? :)
With some smart timing you get 50Hz! |
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Mibri
Registered: Feb 2018
Posts: 197 |
Quote: Little question:
Should we allow 25Hz stereo tunes in competition? What do you think, guys? :)
I don't see why not - I think voters should be able to account for certain tunes being 2SID efforts and adjust their scores according to how tastefully/lazily the additional channels are used.
Recent-ish CSDb music compos (like the Ambient and What's Up Cover compos) allowed 2SID and this made for some cool and interesting entries, so I think as long as 0.5x speed is adhered to, we're all good. :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
I wonder, how would 25hz multispeed tune sound ;-)
Also if Sidwave is right, and Hubbard did 18 tunes in 25hz, that might quite explain his unique Hubbardish sound which two example tunes reminds me of, sort of. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1714 |
Quoting CreaMDAlso if Sidwave is right, and Hubbard did 18 tunes in 25hz, that might quite explain his unique Hubbardish sound which two example tunes reminds me of, sort of.
18 tunes, any suggestions? |
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deetsay
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 36 |
Not sure if this is obvious to everyone, but I suppose it should be possible to do this semi-acceptably with any editor.
1. Use a tempo that can be halved (such as 6)
2. When it's (almost) done, make it twice faster (such as 3)
3. Try to fix portamentos and filter sweeps and stuff at the fast speed.
4. Call the player every other frame. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Deetsay's method seems universal for all editors but you have to compile tune to hear final result, still ;)
@CreamD I'm not sure if older Hubbard's tunes were entirely 25Hz or had e.g. bassline changing pulsemod at that rate. His Last V8 or Human Race bass sound is surely half speed work. |
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deetsay
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 36 |
Hmm, I tried it. Some fixes/amendments to the method are in order: ;-)
1. Use a tempo that can be halved (such as 6)
2. Make every line in all wavetables as double.
3. When it's (almost) done, make it twice faster (such as 3)
(This makes the music a total mess, not really reasonable to fix anything in the fast version)
4. Remove all the double lines from the wavetables. (and double all filter and pulse sweep values!)
5. Call the player every other frame.
6. Hope for some happy accidents!
...but really some of the 25hz sounds are awesome. A supporting or modified editor or anything that lets you design them properly is a better idea. But this will work in an emergency. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
And we have first contestant!
Webchat
Yay! \o/ |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
For the record, the exact value to put in $dc04/dc05 for 25Hz (half speed) for PAL is ($4cc8*2)-1 = $998f, not $9990, else the play routine will trigger every time one line below the previous one. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
<Post edited by moderator on 3/7-2020 12:24>
I guess it's not a problem for entries which just do play/don't play logic per VBL ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
That one cycle (not line) per 2 frames wont matter at all =D |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
well, just run Webchat and see the raster bar going down progressively as the tune plays. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Would it be acceptable to update the driver at 50Hz, if the driver only outputs to the SID every other frame? |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting LaxityWould it be acceptable to update the driver at 50Hz, if the driver only outputs to the SID every other frame?
I suppose you mean player call rather than proper update. In that case sure! Unless you mean updating some internal player variables per VBL - but I cannot think of any potential benefit to that solution then :D |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1714 |
Quoting JammerI suppose you mean player call rather than proper update. In that case sure! Unless you mean updating some internal player variables per VBL - but I cannot think of any potential benefit to that solution then :D
rastertime? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
imho it only makes sense when you call the player at 25Hz.
ian: if we really want 25Hz, not "every other frame"... those are different things =) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting tlrrastertime?
You didn't get my answer. I questioned what would be benefit of updating player at 50hz but updating sid registers at 25hz instead of doing everything at 25hz ;) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting Groepazian: if we really want 25Hz, not "every other frame"... those are different things =)
How would that differ actually? We're strictly talking about SID update frequency. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Framerate is 50.125Hz, not 50Hz |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting GroepazFramerate is 50.125Hz, not 50Hz
I don't even know how to react to this right now :D Not enough strength to do a facepalm - you've just drained all my vitals :D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
You're welcome =) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Quote: Quoting GroepazFramerate is 50.125Hz, not 50Hz
I don't even know how to react to this right now :D Not enough strength to do a facepalm - you've just drained all my vitals :D
All golden ears will hear the difference and complain you know.. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2062 |
why not listen to what iAN and gpz tell you (though they sometimes have different views, both are right)
that music call wandering through frame positions phenomeneon due to
a) innacurate call
b) 50.00 /o\ Hz
is what makes me facepalm since Jason Page is around with that Apple phone tracker which simply assumes 50.00 Hz. Yeah, not the most golden ear will hear a difference, but why doing sth wrong when it can easily be done right.
Now I need to adjust my monocle and have a beer to calm down, you ignorant maniacs ;)
PS: ANd now go on with your 25.0625 Hz Compo :D |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
OMG, dude, not you too :D
I facepalm but it's SO FUCKIN' UNIMPORTANT to the compo! I don't have an autism, I don't have to be exact about this :D It's just a compo name. I'll call it half-speed if it bothers you that much. Fuck sake, get a life people :D |
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Mibri
Registered: Feb 2018
Posts: 197 |
0.5x Speed Music Compo.
Thank you and goodnight. x |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2062 |
Mibri nailed it :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Next time you are doing compo smartasses and now FUCK OFF! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:I don't have an autism
WTF are you doing here then? |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting GroepazWTF are you doing here then?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :D |
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Stinsen
Registered: Feb 2012
Posts: 71 |
If the compo itself is going to be only half as entertaining as this thread it will be golden. :D |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2062 |
After Posting #2 by Count Zero (worrying about discrimination against the ONE NTSC musician out there and his 59,94 Hz), I knew this thread was developing in the right direction ;)
However, good that Jammer found his humour again, you know we love you and don't want to ruin your compo, we just love to be smart asses, it's nerd nature |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: Quoting LaxityWould it be acceptable to update the driver at 50Hz, if the driver only outputs to the SID every other frame?
I suppose you mean player call rather than proper update. In that case sure! Unless you mean updating some internal player variables per VBL - but I cannot think of any potential benefit to that solution then :D
Yeah, that is what I ment, but also you could spread out cpu usage a bit. My main reason was, that if it can be a player/driver detail and not an interrupt handler ditto, I would not need to do havky hack to my editor, if I wanna make a halfspeed SID. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Anything is valid as long as SID registers are updated every 2nd frame ;) I won't make any problems here :D |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Cool, buddy. :) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
If it is allowed to update sid twice on the same frame (in the very beginning and the very end) at every 2nd frame, then that would almost be the same as normal single speed tunes. I hope ppl won't be that boring though. Just my autistic 5 cents. |
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deetsay
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 36 |
Quote: If it is allowed to update sid twice on the same frame (in the very beginning and the very end) at every 2nd frame, then that would almost be the same as normal single speed tunes. I hope ppl won't be that boring though. Just my autistic 5 cents.
:-D ...or playing a sample on every second frame... |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 466 |
Maybe put some limit to the raster-time usage in addition to "player call every 2nd frame"?
I remember asking kb to do a half-speed tune back then just because I was too f**king lame to get my shadebob-routine fast enough, so there was indeed a raster-time reason behind it. Interesting that kb decided to release it on this music disk linked in the OP, didn't even know that.
Thumbs up for the compo! If I only could get kb back to c64 music... that would be something :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting FranticIf it is allowed to update sid twice on the same frame (in the very beginning and the very end) at every 2nd frame, then that would almost be the same as normal single speed tunes. I hope ppl won't be that boring though. Just my autistic 5 cents.
Nope, that's cheating! :D |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Quote:Nope, that's cheating! :D
But... but... if it is only one player call, that lasts almost for a whole frame? |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
SID registers can be modified/updated only once every 2nd frame ;) That doesn't leave any room for interpretation, I guess? ;) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
That's good! I feel much better now.
Maybe something like: Each specific SID register can only be modified once per two frames. All sid writes needs to be done on the same frame, and there must be at least one frame in between where no SID registers are touched at all.
Yes? :) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
but, but, what about a routine that takes under 40 rasters, once every two frames, that writes to some registers more than once during those 2500 cycles?
Surely that would be ok? |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2062 |
come on, I know, I've been a little naughty, too/no saint either in this thread but how about enough of the going on compo orga's nerves compo? |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
It was a serious question - I was doing some planning earlier today.. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2839 |
Planning to have a full video frame of high-res samples, every other frame? =] |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
Haha not at all. Definitely staying well within the border. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
For some inspiration (or just to note it down somewhere) i'd like to mention that Kjell Nordbo used to enjoy making half-speed tunes as he liked the sound Mark Cooksey produced for some titles in the mid 80's.
From the list he compiled to me:
'Losing a Friend' from The Big Leap, 'Think It Over' and 'Message from Space' from Forces in Alliance and finally 'Kjellfire' from Larger than Life was made with half-speed or even lower update-frequency.
Do yourself a favor and take some minutes to listen to them. Or the entire collections they stem from. |
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Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 421 |
Hoping for 0.25x speed aka 12.5Hz after this one! Or perhaps 0.2x (10Hz) would work better ;-) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Quote: Hoping for 0.25x speed aka 12.5Hz after this one! Or perhaps 0.2x (10Hz) would work better ;-)
Why not just running detuned sqarewaves at 0hz modulation, aka Drone? |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting JackAsserWhy not just running detuned sqarewaves at 0hz modulation, aka Drone?
Best soundscape done with only single SID init is kinda nice challenge :D |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting DiggerHoping for 0.25x speed aka 12.5Hz after this one! Or perhaps 0.2x (10Hz) would work better ;-)
throw a WIP matey, can't wait to hear it :-D |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2839 |
Quoting JackAsserWhy not just running detuned sqarewaves at 0hz modulation, aka Drone? Quoting JammerBest soundscape done with only single SID init is kinda nice challenge :D Don't forget ringmod on all three voices. =) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting KrillDon't forget ringmod on all three voices.
Sure thing! :D |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
On a sidenote, I think I actually broke my RetroTINK-2X that I use to be able to connect a C64 to an HDMI screen, due to that 25 hz “flicker in the border every second frame”. I had a 25hz tune playing for something like 30 minutes and now that part of the screen flickers no matter if I run this program or not. :P Might be good to know, in case you also have a RetroTINK-2X. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2839 |
Retrotink finally making the Poke of Death a reality on C-64, too! =D |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Yes. ...or rather, more like a poke of temporary nausea. It turned out that the flickering gradually got better the longer I had the RetroTINK-2X turned off, and now it is more or less back to normal again. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
More likely your HDMI display being confused rather than the RetroTINK-2X. Rapid flashing can confuse modern flat panels and cause temporary ghosting effects. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
That may very well be a more reasonable explanation — I really don't know much about the tech involved here — but when I tried to connect the HDMI screen to the mac instead, no flickering was visible on the display. When I connected the RetroTINK-2X again after that, the flickering was back, until it gradually disappeared. I guess your explanation is still possible though, if the screen goes into different modes depending on what is connected to it, and if it is some kind of software thing. Anyway, I guess this is getting off topic. Sorry guys. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
ONLY ONE WEEK LEFT FOR NEW ENTRIES! :)
Still waiting for your half-speed goodies <3 |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Linus won, move on :=) |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Weren't there rules at some point where one wasn't allowed to publish a thing for a compo without polishing it up? So, a tune would at most have info on the runtime, not any graphics, and a graphics entry would not play a tune? |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting CompyxWeren't there rules at some point where one wasn't allowed to publish a thing for a compo without polishing it up? So, a tune would at most have info on the runtime, not any graphics, and a graphics entry would not play a tune?
I just hope peoople will judge solely on music content. |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quote: Quoting CompyxWeren't there rules at some point where one wasn't allowed to publish a thing for a compo without polishing it up? So, a tune would at most have info on the runtime, not any graphics, and a graphics entry would not play a tune?
I just hope peoople will judge solely on music content.
Hiding this way makes sense only on anonymous compos anyway. ;-) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 444 |
Quoting GroepazLinus won, move on :=)
Guess you're right. But I released it anyway :-) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Is anyone interested in expanding submission deadline to the 2nd of August (Sunday)? |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
Quote: Is anyone interested in expanding submission deadline to the 2nd of August (Sunday)?
guess i'd be interested in the deadline to be extended to september, so i have enough time to figure how to get my player to play the tune in its desired speed ▲ (and then i need to get it to last a bit longer than just 36 seconds) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
@dalezy, just use GT ;) |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 112 |
There will always be someone that missed the train no matter how long it waited.
defMON supports 25Hz as well (any mode actually as it's possible to set the timer manually, e.g. $998F). |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1714 |
Quoting F7sus4defMON supports 25Hz as well (any mode actually as it's possible to set the timer manually, e.g. $998F). Soundmonitor supports it then. ;) |
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freℚvibez
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 27 |
Quote: Is anyone interested in expanding submission deadline to the 2nd of August (Sunday)?
Yes, please! Haven't had time to compose, yet but would love to take part.
ps: If anyone's interested in SDI 25hz, I hacked it together and I'm happy to share (I hope Geir and GRG won't send me to purgatory for this). |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting freℚvibezYes, please! Haven't had time to compose, yet but would love to take part.
Great! Hereby, deadline is extended to the 2nd of August ;) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Last day, still a chance to submit something! ;) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
I'd be very interested in a second compo in the not too distant future. Having great fun with envelope manipulation at the moment, but also only have a half finished player, and I'm running into filter emulation issues just testing what I have already. Not going to have something ready in time.
Dalezy, perhaps we can lock horns in the future? :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting ChristopherJamI'd be very interested in a second compo in the not too distant future. Having great fun with envelope manipulation at the moment, but also only have a half finished player, and I'm running into filter emulation issues just testing what I have already. Not going to have something ready in time.
Dalezy, perhaps we can lock horns in the future? :)
Next edition most probably in a year so plenty of time to refine your ideas and put them into practice ;) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
*** ENTRIES SUBMISSION IS OVER! ***
Hereby starts the voting phase of 25Hz Music Compo 2020 which will be over next Sunday (9th of August) at 23:59.59. Numerous entries have included painstakingly crafted, stunning visuals but, with all respect and admiration for their authors, please remember - it's music compo after all so judging entries purely on the basis of musical content is greatly appreciated ;) And, please, take your time to vote and comment on all submitted tunes, not only on your groupmates. If you take part in compo and vote - please, respect other participants and cast honest votes without all little position games and shit ;) Compo discussion as usual in related forum thread.
Cast your votes then, friends! <3 |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Congratulations to all participants. You are simply epic! |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
let the downvotings begin! |
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freℚvibez
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 27 |
Quote: let the downvotings begin!
No need for that, I didn't participate. :D |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
compo name should have been: "25Hz Music and weirdest sid title Compo 2020" :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
I'd like to thank all participants for so many gorgeous tunes. Overall level made my jaw drop <3 |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2062 |
First of all, really impressive outcome! Coders are currently working on how to make use of that extra frame ;)
But next time I demand 24 Hz. Why? For the simple reason that the human eye can't see more than 24 fps anyway. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting TheRykhuman eye can't see more than 24 fps anyway.
That's actually bollocks ;) If human eye saw everything in full frames, maybe that would be true. But human eye works different, patching image out of fragments, and speed of detecting changed fragments easily surpasses 100fps ;) |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 112 |
@Jammer: Ever heard about sarcasm? ;-) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting F7sus4@Jammer: Ever heard about sarcasm? ;-)
I know what his point is but it refers to quite widespread yet inaccurate info hence I correct it, smartass ;) |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 112 |
@Jammer: Yes, now you do. ;-)
Anyway, thank you for the compo and for keeping people motivated. It was simple yet pertinent idea to stimulate creativity even more with additional boundaries. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: First of all, really impressive outcome! Coders are currently working on how to make use of that extra frame ;)
But next time I demand 24 Hz. Why? For the simple reason that the human eye can't see more than 24 fps anyway.
you can easily see that 24 fps is choppy check some fps comparison videos on yt like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zquClG3j9so |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
Hmm. Safer to build a zoetrope than to trust in YouTube frame rates. Of course, you’d need some way to calibrate its RPM ;) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2062 |
Oswald probably I need new eyes, watched it and hardly noticed any difference at higher framerate ^^ might be due to YT though as CJ hints |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Anyway... Last 2 hours to send your precious votes :D |
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DKT
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 96 |
Voting done.
It was a great compo with so many great tunes <3
C64 forever! |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
*** VOTES LOCKED! ***
Snapshot from all submitted votes is already done. Final results are going to be a combination of two approaches:
- simple arithmetic average - because it's brutally honest :D
- average with amount of votes being squared - to prioritize most repeating votes over isolated ones
CSDb calculated average will not be included. Stay tuned! :D |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
*** OFFICIAL RESULTS ***
Thanks to all participants for these wonderful 25 entries for 25Hz Music Compo 2020! (and a few more outside the very competition) Congrats to the worthy winners! Fuckings to sneaky bastard who downvoted some people last minute! :D
It was absolutely worth it! See you next time! <3 |
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Shogoon
Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 18 |
Firstable, thanks to Kamil for creating such a great event. Thanks to all composers for creating beautiful music for our beloved C64. And thank you guys, for your votes and comments. Oh! One thing for last-minute-vote-shufflers - I hope there's a special place for you in the afterlife with my DiscoHasselhoffers tune on the loop :-) Cheers! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
There, Linus won. Say it isnt so :=) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 444 |
Great compo idea – was real fun to explore that "new" territory. Thanks Jammer!
Again the delivery by all participants was insane. More than half of the tunes got voted 9+ average. Even the last places being still good music, just with "standard" sounds.
What was also really cool were the 2SID entries. I'm usually not into 2SID, but all three here were really fresh and enjoyable.
And congrats to Shogoon, psych858o and Linus for bringing a computerized fotzee into the cathedrals of the church of 64 ;-)
Now come all over to nonstandard time compo ... |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Yup, onto the Nonstandard Time Signature! <3 |
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Mibri
Registered: Feb 2018
Posts: 197 |
Utterly fantastic compo; thanks everyone for your exciting and inventive tunes. Yes, on to Nonstandard Time Signature now... |
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DjS
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 47 |
Amazing entries in this compo, I listened to all of them just last night as I was on a vacation and I must say, the quality is of insane high level. Praise all the contenders! :) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
I kinda feel sorry for these folks manipulating their votes right before voting deadline. If you feel so insecure you have to do it, grab me on next time you see me, I'll give you a hug. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
It's the nth demonstration that csdb shouldn't be used for online compos, votes are too easy to be manipulated by the usual anonymous downvoters (and upvoters fanbois to be fair). |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
I haven't used CSDb average, to clarify ;) Next time I might stick entirely to squared population per vote value in my calculations - it effectively weeds out single votes without nasty side effects ;) It's #^2 column in results sheet. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 444 |
I haven't followed all the votes in detail, but tbh. I find it quite harsh to speak of "manipulation".
I see from the votes I got, that someone probably toggled his/her/its vote back and forth +/- 1 point – which could just be because for some people compo voting is different than "general" voting and you often end up comparing entries with one another.
It's really not the fault of undecided people that the vote participation is so low that toggling +/- 1 point leads to .2 difference in average.
Chillax folks: all those great tunes are here to stay :-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
for compo you need ordered voting, because what spider said - the absolute votes on csdb are terrible for this. and that you can see the averages while you vote makes it even more terribly useless :) also who cares. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting spider-jI haven't followed all the votes in detail, but tbh. I find it quite harsh to speak of "manipulation".
Believe me, this scener changes e.g. 7 to 4 (or 9 to 5) right before deadline and restores votes later. Actually, I know who he is and he does it everytime he or his friends participate in music compos. I leave it up to his conscience - it's not my role to teach anyone how to behave like a civil person ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Psycho voting, it works before - see above - the results are displayed prematurely. It's quite effective to vote "bad" on your own release, for example - because some ppl then feel they have to "correct" this. (and the other way around). and indeed, it is quite common. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 444 |
Quoting JammerActually, I know who he is
Ok, well then, if you know: forget what I said about the "undecided". I just try thinking the most positive way about something until I know all of the facts :-) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting spider-jI haven't followed all the votes in detail, but tbh. I find it quite harsh to speak of "manipulation".
Changing vote from 7 to 4 just before the clock hit midnight, and back from 4 to 7 afterwards is manipulative. Yes, we know, we've been taking web snapshots :)
Quoting Groepaz
the results are displayed prematurely.
How about CSDb providing a way to organise compos with non-premature vote display? And options for results - ie. with standard average, and what Jammer was looking at - the square root thingy? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
You should know it wont happen |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting GroepazYou should know it wont happen
You should know it should happen. ;-) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting bookerHow about CSDb providing a way to organise compos with non-premature vote display? And options for results - ie. with standard average, and what Jammer was looking at - the square root thingy?
Gpz just stated the fact about CSDB based compos, no need for that reaction here :D BTW, it was square, not square root ;)
Not to forget - Booker, much, much thanks for making vote snapshot scripts! <3 |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting JammerQuoting bookerHow about CSDb providing a way to organise compos with non-premature vote display? And options for results - ie. with standard average, and what Jammer was looking at - the square root thingy?
Gpz just stated the fact about CSDB based compos, no need for that reaction here
I didn't really "reacted". It would be so uber-cool if the biggest C64 site ever would make a compo function. Just that. If anyone forgot already, competitions are the absolute fundamental root (and square root) of the scene :) and... collecting the scene productions is.... just collecting the scene productions. But ofc, whatever. ;-) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 444 |
Quoting bookerChanging vote from 7 to 4 just before the clock hit midnight, and back from 4 to 7 afterwards is manipulative. Yes, we know, we've been taking web snapshots :)
Ok, ok, I got it. I have now compared the snapshot / google doc with the current votes for the other participants and now I see and believe :-) Sorry, should have checked that before commenting... |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
Hmm. I tend to scale my ratings whenever CSDb rating is being abused as a compo voting platform (ie, if everything 'deserves' between 7 and 10 I'll often stretch that out to 4-10 instead, then try and remember to rescale back a few days later), but that's as soon as I can get through all the entries, not a few minutes before voting closes.
I'm starting to see what's meant by the description of certain practices not being in good faith, much as it is a level playing field.
Interesting idea about squaring the count of each vote before doing the average, though I suspect that only works once - if it's known in advance then that just gets to be another thing for people to game.
One of these decades one of the half a dozen of us who've been contemplating setting up an external site with a proper ordering system, authenticated via CSDb log in, will get around to implementing it. Until then though, this is still the sanest approximation we have. (mumble mumble churchill on democracy mumble) |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 112 |
Well, one of your MSL friends did it, as he has forgotten to turn off his anonymous votes briefly. Surprisingly, enormous amount of works (and profiles too, mine included) received noticeable hatevote influx the next morning after the compo.
No idea who came up with anonymous votes, but this is just bad idea. Yes, this was discussed million times, but it's never too late to do the right thing.
I agree with @spider-j, being able to see other votes while voting is still open significantly "encourages" micromanaging manipulation. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
Back to topic though,
Thanks Jammer for such an excellent concept, and many thanks to all the competitors - the entries have on the whole been extraordinarily good.
(ps, as TheRyk already intimated - clearly none of you godlike wave wranglers actually need to update SID every frame. With my coder hat on, all those cycles you used to occupy on the odd frames are taken now, sorry!) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting ChristopherJamInteresting idea about squaring the count of each vote before doing the average, though I suspect that only works once - if it's known in advance then that just gets to be another thing for people to game.)
I suspect this method might start to fail with huge amounts of votes (thousands, millions etc.) but for usual CSDb scale it seemed quite efective to my eyes. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting F7sus4Well, one of your MSL friends did it, as he has forgotten to turn off his anonymous votes briefly.
As I said, I know EXACTLY who did it, got it? ;) And believe me, I DO :D |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 112 |
Quoting JammerI suspect this method might start to fail with huge amounts of votes (thousands, millions etc.) but for usual CSDb scale it seemed quite efective to my eyes.
What about the usual ranking system for online compos where people rank all entries from 1st to 25th without using arbitrary values, and that later is calculated by algorithm of choice? |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting F7sus4What about the usual ranking system for online compos where people rank all entries from 1st to 25th without using arbitrary values, and that later is calculated by algorithm of choice?
It requires external voting forms - too much fuss for my little purpose - it's only a fun compo all in all. Subsequently, it's always less votes submitted than via regular CSDb system ;)
Excellent 25Hz banner was created by Joe - THANK YOU! <3 |
