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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Release id #20965 : Mortalis Arisen 90%
Continuing the discussion from http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=20965&show=review
@The Dark Judge: i see your point, a release should be a prod that has been released. :) But party-entries that has not been released (at least not in the form they were in when competing) is a special-case i think. I know that the word "release" might be a bit off in this case...
But even though it's unfurtunate, it's something that has happened a lotta times through history, but that shouldn't mean that CSDb shouldn't have the complete party-results for these parties imo. I don't think it's been a problem till now?
Maybe some people would argue that we should just set the 100% version to be the winner of the party. But that would be wrong imo, as it wasn't the prod that won.
A good solution would be to go back in time and force a rule on each party: "ALL COMPETING ENTRIES WILL BE SPREAD NO MATTER IF THEY'RE FINISHED OR NOT!!!!" |
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Tim
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 74 |
This sure is a tough one. As a former party organiser I am strongly in favour of the rule that all entries will be spread. Imo it should be listed as a release as it actually competed at a competition. Theoretically they can release a 100% or maybe a 110% version with a number of new screens that competes again at another party in which case it is a different release.
Coming to think of it, I will retract our PS release and re-release it as a 50% version. We will add some more parts and have it compete at another party again next year. Now I understand what is meant with 4ever ;) |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
nicely ;-)
first thing i want to mention that it shouldn't be my thing to say that a 90% demo should not compete with other demos. and i agree that it should be spreaded anyway because it's a release. the word just say it: "release"
on the other hand, exile told me that the demo should run on an emulator and would load in a 1571 diskdrive but can crash while running in a 1541 drive. they want to fix that first...a pity that i knew about this demo a few minutes before the compos started. but that's just me.
-2 start press any key..where is the any key?- |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
I've always had the opinion that unfinished productions never should be allowed in the compos unless it's ok to spread them afterwards, it's unfair for those who has struggled a lot to get their production ready if something unfinished wins. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: nicely ;-)
first thing i want to mention that it shouldn't be my thing to say that a 90% demo should not compete with other demos. and i agree that it should be spreaded anyway because it's a release. the word just say it: "release"
on the other hand, exile told me that the demo should run on an emulator and would load in a 1571 diskdrive but can crash while running in a 1541 drive. they want to fix that first...a pity that i knew about this demo a few minutes before the compos started. but that's just me.
-2 start press any key..where is the any key?-
Releases that do not work in 1541 I or II and a real C64 should not be allowed also unfinished demos should not be allowed in competitions |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: Releases that do not work in 1541 I or II and a real C64 should not be allowed also unfinished demos should not be allowed in competitions
how do you decide wether its finished ? :) The smarter rule is: ALL release must get spreaded after the party. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
and btw,
before I released soiled legacy it was _shown_ before/after the demo compo at a hun party, but OUTSIDE the compo. and the unfinished final is spread until today, that took part in the X compo... |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
Quote: I've always had the opinion that unfinished productions never should be allowed in the compos unless it's ok to spread them afterwards, it's unfair for those who has struggled a lot to get their production ready if something unfinished wins.
@Zyron:
Unfair how exactly?
If something unfinished wins, all it means is the voters liked it the most (usually).
How is this unfair to the other releases?
A prod being unfinished doesnt mean its creators
didnt struggle to get it ready to be shown, somehow.
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: how do you decide wether its finished ? :) The smarter rule is: ALL release must get spreaded after the party.
Quote: Releases that do not work in 1541 I or II and a real C64, e.g. are in my opinion. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Quote: @Zyron:
Unfair how exactly?
If something unfinished wins, all it means is the voters liked it the most (usually).
How is this unfair to the other releases?
A prod being unfinished doesnt mean its creators
didnt struggle to get it ready to be shown, somehow.
All entries should compete under the same conditions. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
All this fussing about ´rules´ is understandable.
But as it was shown during the demo-compo and I really liked it a lot,I voted accordingly.
It was only afterwards, that we found out, it wasn´t eligible for voting. :(
A demo that ísn´t finished (for whatever reason) shouldn´t take part in compos.
If you feel the need to participate in one,just wait for the next opportunity and avoid this ´disgrace´.
I think the demo is very good and wouldn´t have much problems being recognised as such,anytime!! |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
@Zyron:
If so, being unfinished gives it a disadvantage over other
prods, nothing more, so i still cant see the problem..
I do agree however, that it'd be best if the rules state
that all prods must be released after the event.
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
mmmmm, Dutch Breeze wasn't 100% at Silicon Party, and it wasn't released as such, but fixed and released after the party.
Having said that, it contradicts my opinion nowadays. I think it shows bravery if a team releases a 90% demo. (And possibly update it later to a 100%, if they still want that)
And frankly, I think I will not miss the 10% of the discussed demo anyway. |
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Tim
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 74 |
Quote: mmmmm, Dutch Breeze wasn't 100% at Silicon Party, and it wasn't released as such, but fixed and released after the party.
Having said that, it contradicts my opinion nowadays. I think it shows bravery if a team releases a 90% demo. (And possibly update it later to a 100%, if they still want that)
And frankly, I think I will not miss the 10% of the discussed demo anyway.
Well bravery in a certain way. The organizer of the party gets the blame. I remember some angry people came for an explenation afterwards why we had Dutch Breeze enter the contest. On the other hand I was very glad ofcourse that BML decided to release it on a Silicon Party :)
In the end it is up to the organisation wether they want to have unfinished entries participate in their competition. As long as they make this clear in the rules before the competition you won't hear me complain.
This discussion should be aimed at wether unfinished entries should be listed in CSDB. For the sake of clarity I should say yes when they are released to the public (even when they are not downloadable) in a certain way. I guess it breaks down to this:
Pro
Party organiser can list it as competition entry
People can look for it in the db on short term
The group can link the release entry to the 100% version when finished
Contra
Different versions add up to the release total
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
A demo is never really finished, and if you spent 2 years on a production and worked your ass off to be able to compete with it, you should be allowed to fix some glitches. And even if it isn't allowed: I wouldn't give a damn and just release a 100% version. How on earth could you stop me? |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
@TiM: Angry people? Must have been TDJ. ;) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: @TiM: Angry people? Must have been TDJ. ;)
Not really - I wasn't present at that party. Also, we pulled the same trick half a year earlier, by not releasing Visual Delight even though we won the compo.
Still there's a difference between competing and not getting it finished, and knowing beforehand that you're not going to release it. In that last case I'd say: don't compete with it. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
@TDJ, and lets not forget the 1 year it took to fix that VD2 bug. ;) And, you're right, you wasn't at that party, so my bad. Guess it was Ben then.
I guess the last 10% of a production are the most difficult to finish. Those 10% can easily grow into 20% or more. And before we know it, it takes the same amount of time to finish the last 10% as the first 90%. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: @TDJ, and lets not forget the 1 year it took to fix that VD2 bug. ;) And, you're right, you wasn't at that party, so my bad. Guess it was Ben then.
I guess the last 10% of a production are the most difficult to finish. Those 10% can easily grow into 20% or more. And before we know it, it takes the same amount of time to finish the last 10% as the first 90%.
VD2 was a different story: I actually 'stole' the disk back from the organizers with some lame excuse. Still we (Mirage, Jayce & me) were really planning on finishing it *at* The Party 3, not our fault it took over a year to do so ;Z
But that was a long time ago and I'm a better person now so that gives me the right to throw rocks at all those dirty mothafunkers that compete with unfinished products.
And no, I will not comment on the words "Primary Star 2004" and "Primary Scar", thankyouverymuch. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
hehe, ok.. so you are a better person since, lets say, yesterday? |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: hehe, ok.. so you are a better person since, lets say, yesterday?
Sure. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
That looks like a comment to me. |
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Nightlord
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
i wasn't at the party so there is something that i do not understand. Could someone explain this
at the primary star web site it says the compo machine is a PAL c64 with 1541
you guys are saying the 64 ever demo only works with a 1571
so it did not work on the announced compo machine and the organizers still let it enter the compo and even went as far as to change the compo machine configuration.
and the demo won the compo.
did i misunderstand something? |
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Tim
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 74 |
Quote: @TiM: Angry people? Must have been TDJ. ;)
Those Paradizers haunted me for years. Sixten is still angry with me ;) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Those Paradizers haunted me for years. Sixten is still angry with me ;)
Well, ofcourse they were pissed off. First they lost to us in the summer, then they lost to Black Mail in the winter .. Paradize is the Joop Zoetemelk of the Dutch demoscene ;) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: i wasn't at the party so there is something that i do not understand. Could someone explain this
at the primary star web site it says the compo machine is a PAL c64 with 1541
you guys are saying the 64 ever demo only works with a 1571
so it did not work on the announced compo machine and the organizers still let it enter the compo and even went as far as to change the compo machine configuration.
and the demo won the compo.
did i misunderstand something?
Can't explain it, other than that the jury kinda made a big mistake ..
Don't get me wrong: the 64ever demo was absolutely the best of the bunch, but it shouldn't have been allowed to compete, according to the rules. But then again, rules are made to be broken, just like the hearts of the Paradize guys back in '91, and the SCL guys last weekend ;) |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
@nightlord:
This isnt unusual. When i was at X2001 there were two
'compo machines', c64/1541 combo & a 128D.
You could choose which one u wanted (i'm still kicking
myself for not choosing the 128D first..) |
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Tim
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 74 |
Quote: Can't explain it, other than that the jury kinda made a big mistake ..
Don't get me wrong: the 64ever demo was absolutely the best of the bunch, but it shouldn't have been allowed to compete, according to the rules. But then again, rules are made to be broken, just like the hearts of the Paradize guys back in '91, and the SCL guys last weekend ;)
Ouch!!! Talking about "een koekje van eigen deeg" ;)
And if I remember correctly the grandprize was ironically a 1571 drive. Bummer.... |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Ouch!!! Talking about "een koekje van eigen deeg" ;)
And if I remember correctly the grandprize was ironically a 1571 drive. Bummer....
Well, what goes around comes around .. now you & Sixten can cry together. |
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Nightlord
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
@raven: i think it would be ok as long as other compo machines are announced before. in the primary star site it says "The demo has to work on a Pal C64 with 1541."
so as much as it makes me excited to hear a new 64ever demo is on the way, I think they should not have let the demo compete. If X also let people choose a compo machine without announcing it they also made a mistake. Ofcourse I do not know what X announced back then but I am sure you get my point.
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Quote: @nightlord:
This isnt unusual. When i was at X2001 there were two
'compo machines', c64/1541 combo & a 128D.
You could choose which one u wanted (i'm still kicking
myself for not choosing the 128D first..)
Hi raven,
this is not true. At x2001 (and x2000 and x2004) there were 2 compo machines (as announced.) One was a c64-1 with old sid, the other a c64-2 with new sid. Both machines had a 1541-II drive and had AR-cartridges. We never had a c128 for sure. (100% sure, i didnt have a c128 back then, and i supplied the compo machines).
Just to clarify things :) |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
@WVL:
Well, at X2001 after Insomnia crashed & burned on the 64/1541 I ran it again on a 128D which was right beside
the c64..
I did not imagine this ;)
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
i didnt have a c128d :D.. I did acquire one 2 months ago, but at the time I didnt have a single c128 (not a D, DCR or flat or whatever..) :) If there WAS a c128d present, it didnt belong to me and wasnt one of the compo machines :).
Also, I'd never use a c128 in a compo.. they're nice machines, but those vertical lines in the screen annoy me to bits!! totally unsuitable for display on the bigscreen.. |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
@WVL:
didnt say it was yours, but there was one which was
used as a compo-machine for some of the demos shown.
Why are we even arguing about this hehe
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
i'm pretty sure there was a 1571 used at x2001. krills loader that iopop and i had used for feedback didnt work on my c128d , when krill tested it on c128dcr at the party it worked fine. but during the compo soiled legacy which used a loader by krill crashed at first , and the drive was exchanged. and as i remember it the first drive that was used was a 1571 |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Quote: i'm pretty sure there was a 1571 used at x2001. krills loader that iopop and i had used for feedback didnt work on my c128d , when krill tested it on c128dcr at the party it worked fine. but during the compo soiled legacy which used a loader by krill crashed at first , and the drive was exchanged. and as i remember it the first drive that was used was a 1571
hmmm.. that could be.. i vaguely remember one of my 1541-II's giving problems, so i might have swapped it at first for a 1571... But there definately was no c128D. ;)
then again it's weird shit.. because i tested all the entries on the compo machine before the compo started.. (well except for Insomnia, i only got that disk during the compo :D) |
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Rattus
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 34 |
And what did we learn ? Test your demo with C64, C64-II, 1541, 1541-II, 1571, 1581, 64hdd, ide64.... and so on... Boy I miss old times.... If you had 1571, you'd simply make a demo that works on that... though it would have been a onefiler.... Actually... how accurate is the emulating in for example Vice ? Could we test our products in Vice for different systems ? Maybe it could give us a hint.... to fix certain issues... btw... still waiting for a RELEASE, that I can download...
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Oxbow
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 50 |
i am fairly tolerant against groups working their ass off and want to present their 'lifework' at a party on a big screen to the c64 audience it is meant for at a night with you the 'right vibe' hangin' in the air...
not only the creators of the demo, but the audience and thus the entire scene benefits from a great compo night don't ya think??
i do think however it is extra cool to have a fully working demo just spread at the party, but believe me, the demo creators know it themselves! |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: i am fairly tolerant against groups working their ass off and want to present their 'lifework' at a party on a big screen to the c64 audience it is meant for at a night with you the 'right vibe' hangin' in the air...
not only the creators of the demo, but the audience and thus the entire scene benefits from a great compo night don't ya think??
i do think however it is extra cool to have a fully working demo just spread at the party, but believe me, the demo creators know it themselves!
Sure, but the demo could have been shown 'outside' of the compo as well. In fact I think it would have benefitted from this: people would talk about it in a more positive way (because right now, no matter how good the demo is/was, there's still a negative vibe hanging around it), and when it was finally released it would probably make a much bigger impact. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Sure, but the demo could have been shown 'outside' of the compo as well. In fact I think it would have benefitted from this: people would talk about it in a more positive way (because right now, no matter how good the demo is/was, there's still a negative vibe hanging around it), and when it was finally released it would probably make a much bigger impact.
That is a very good point! I totally agree! |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Quote: Sure, but the demo could have been shown 'outside' of the compo as well. In fact I think it would have benefitted from this: people would talk about it in a more positive way (because right now, no matter how good the demo is/was, there's still a negative vibe hanging around it), and when it was finally released it would probably make a much bigger impact.
A negative vibe around the demo? Excuse me?
I don't see it that way. I see a discussion about "releasing eventually unreleased releases" at compos, which got triggered by our release. Which is good - let's use the occasion to lay a foundation to prevent this kind of thing in the future.
However...
If a majority of the people truly wish to condemn Mortalis Arisen *itself* because supposedly, me and my team members consciously committed an unprecedented yet obvious act of unparallelled criminal proportions (more criminal than, oh say, performing "acts of persuasion" at the partyplace to win votes rather than letting people judge the prods neutrally), if they truly want to judge it with a negative bias rather than judge it purely on its qualities as a demo, then I am appalled. Then I don't see a reason to release it at all.
I do not believe what I just read. This is an insult towards me, my team members, the demo and the effort we put into it. I can't even begin to write down how this disappoints me.
...no matter how good the demo is/was?! |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Pfff .. calm down will you. All I'm saying is that it would be a shame if the demo would be known for this 'controversy' instead of its qualities. And believe me, that can happen, I've seen it before. Hell, I experienced it a few times, and it's no fun if people try to diminish your victory based on a situation you're not really responsible for.
Now personally I'm not going to give your demo a bad review once it's released because of this. I liked what I saw last week and I'm pretty sure I'll like it again. But I think it would have been better if you didn't compete with it.
By the way, it's still not clear to me if it was the organisation fucking up (they did proclaim it was non-votable, *after* the result was already made public) or if you guys yourself were always planning to compete with something that you were not going to release. If the latter is the case, well, you should go to hell ;)
As for my 'how good it was/is' line, that's just me trying to make sense of a situation where I saw a demo once and may not see it again. So until the demo is released, yes, it 'was' good ;)
And if you chose not to release it at all, well, you're just stupid aren't you? ;) |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Quote: Pfff .. calm down will you. All I'm saying is that it would be a shame if the demo would be known for this 'controversy' instead of its qualities. And believe me, that can happen, I've seen it before. Hell, I experienced it a few times, and it's no fun if people try to diminish your victory based on a situation you're not really responsible for.
Now personally I'm not going to give your demo a bad review once it's released because of this. I liked what I saw last week and I'm pretty sure I'll like it again. But I think it would have been better if you didn't compete with it.
By the way, it's still not clear to me if it was the organisation fucking up (they did proclaim it was non-votable, *after* the result was already made public) or if you guys yourself were always planning to compete with something that you were not going to release. If the latter is the case, well, you should go to hell ;)
As for my 'how good it was/is' line, that's just me trying to make sense of a situation where I saw a demo once and may not see it again. So until the demo is released, yes, it 'was' good ;)
And if you chose not to release it at all, well, you're just stupid aren't you? ;)
Trust me, that was a calm, collected response, as far as you can be collected when reading that the demo you worked so hard for supposedly is identified with what is really being discussed here. But it definitely was calm.
How you review the demo is up to you (and your neutral stance is appreciated), but you were alluding to a scenario where the majority of the scene will be doing things quite differently. And *if* this is true, then the response I stated holds.
But, I wasn't the only one involved in this project. I can't share my personal viewpoint on the matter yet (although this viewpoint is already known), not without mentioning the other team members. There has to be an internal discussion about it first.
I did not know about the non-votable stuff. Bud mailed me other information yesterday which made me frown a bit. Still - the issue at hand was not an issue at the time of release, therefore, noone can really be blamed. This sort of thing has to be prevented in the future, though.
Finally, it's not quite stupid... what *would* be stupid is releasing a rulings discussion, since according to the statement, that's what this demo is. |
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
to clarify some since you're interested in this; In the weeks before the party I asked the organisation if it will be a problem when we compete with the demo that needs a little fix afterwards before we release it because we were not sure we're going to make it.
So in other words: show a party version
we should go to hell now according to your words. rethink (we've always been good sceners ;p), the question was mainly based on one of the works yet to be done that was a noter for the demo.
No problem is the answer. I must admit i was a it confused as well hearing it was non-votable
Next thing the drive used. with the knowledge of today. The crashing at home of the 1541-II drive is mainly due to a faulty powersupply used, with a replaced supply the test results are much better.
with this uncertainty of the previous 'transfering-test -hell-fridaynight' the suggestion came to run it on a stable 1571. On the compomachine there was hooked a 1541 and a 1571. I even think more contributions ran on that drive. But who really cares that much. There was shown a demo that did not crash, that would spoil much more fun than this in some eyes 'this differs from the website rules, boooh, how come there is used a different drive?' -> the organisation decided, and it's not like there is used an amiga in a c64 compo to run effects on...
Basicly there is no problem, there was a party, there was this demo, and now there is in a fair amount of time a demo in the csdb database for everyone that was not on that party
one could support this as well, we should disqualify all music entries of primary star:
the site states:
- Screen output will not be shown.
well i was there, and everything was shown, it's a shame, why is no-one complaining about that. Who was the winner of that compo and let's discuss this release (irony) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Shake, Vip, just try to think a bit on the frustration factor of the whole story:
I've checked the party results, and said: "wow 64ever has a new demo, cant wait to see it, it must be as awesome as insomnia, hey cool, lets download it.. click the link.. WHAT ?! NO download link ?! :(( how many months do I have to wait now for the final ?!"
This frustrating feeling will spoil the impact of the demo when first checking it IMHO.
I remember deus ex machina. I couldnt be 100% happy when finally getting to see it.
If you have the balls to enter the compo with an unfinished piece you must have the balls to also release it, or you must have the balls to show it outside the compo.
Waiting for weeks / months to see an already released demo is frustrating. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
@Shake: sure you're going to hell. But hey, I'll be sitting next to you, frantically typing scrolltexts that never will be read until the end of days ;)
I still think the decent thing would have been to not compete, esp. since you already knew it wasn't going to be released. Now let me be clear: I can understand why you did what you did, but don't act surprised if people start making a ruckus about it, that's all.
I put the blame equally with you and with the organisation, who made it even worse by claiming the demo was non-votable. Then again, like I already stated in the comments to PS, the compo organisation sucked, this is just one thing they did wrong ;Z
Comparing this to the music compo is ofcourse bullshit - it was hardly the musicians fault that the organisation didn't turn off the screen while playing the song, was it? And even if you would disqualify the Focus song (oh, how ironic!), it would mean you'd have to disqualify ALL songs .. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quoting OswaldShake, Vip, just try to think a bit on the frustration factor of the whole story:
I've checked the party results, and said: "wow 64ever has a new demo, cant wait to see it, it must be as awesome as insomnia, hey cool, lets download it.. click the link.. WHAT ?! NO download link ?! :(( how many months do I have to wait now for the final ?!"
This frustrating feeling will spoil the impact of the demo when first checking it IMHO.
I remember deus ex machina. I couldnt be 100% happy when finally getting to see it.
If you have the balls to enter the compo with an unfinished piece you must have the balls to also release it, or you must have the balls to show it outside the compo.
Waiting for weeks / months to see an already released demo is frustrating.
Please excuse me while I go sit in a corner and cry about the fact that Oswald and I completely agree on something ;) |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
Well I agree with Oswald since I experienced that frustration several times myself.
Too bad though, this time I cant do anything about that
since its not my demo but it wont take long I guess.
Just be patient! (says someone with zero patience ;) |
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Nightlord
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
I personally think the authors have the right to choose when to release what and when to add a dl link. This has happened before with tsunami this year. I do not see a problem with a demo being shown at a party but not released on the net. consider it a special advantage of the party goers. And thus I have not stated any comments on that side of the discussion on this thread before.
I am more surprised by the compo side of things. I do not have any doubt about the good intentions of the demomakers or even the orgranisers. I agree that it would be unfair to judge this demo based on this event rather than its qualities as a demo when we finally see it. And I certainly will not do so.
But I still think the compo machines should be announced and the demos should work on that configuration. and the organisers should make sure the compo machine works (no faulty supplies etc.). i am not trying to point fingers to anyone but i think a demo that does not work on compo machine should not be allowed to compete. I think it is unfair to the other compo entries.
i hope i could make it clearer that i am not writing these to blame the 64ever demo's quality (how can i? i haven't seen it) or the sceners' efforts behind it.
But the efforts of the red brand and the silicon ltd guys are no less valuable and should be fairly protected by the organisation too. |
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
For the record; the power supply at home was crappy. Not the one on the compo machine, we haven't test it on the 1541/compo machine at all.
Straight on the 1571 since that was hooked on as well. I'll bet for 100% it worked on the 1541. So you see no bad intentions/cheating or what so ever, just a matter of 'uhm let's pick that drive'...
the problem was a 1541-II at home and that was not on the compomachine at all. The picking of 1571 was purely because it was the best there to choose of. You're probably right about the rules etcetera but nobody was thinking like that at all at that moment...hope that clears it |
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Cybernator
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 154 |
TDJ wrote:
> Comparing this to the music compo is ofcourse bullshit
Perhaps you misunderstood. Allow me to clarify. It was about the rules on the PS site which state that the demo must work on a C64+1541. And according to some of the previous posts, we broke this rule and this was unfair. How come? It would've been unfair if we had used a highend PC with GeForce 7800 to rape the bigscreen up to the bone, while the rest of the competitors used a "prehistoric" C64. (or you can make it a SuperCPU-equiped-C64 instead of the highend PC ;)) The 1571 won't show its full potential unless conected to a C128, so I see nothing unfair about this.
Ok, this rule was broken, but so was the rule that "screen will not be shown during the music compo". So Shake's comparison stands, whether you like it or not... Someone could've upvoted/downvoted because he liked/disliked what was shown on the screen. ;P But then, of course, we all have different opinions.
Next thing: the statement that the demo doesn't work or __ANY__ 1541, but has no problem on 1571. This is sheer bullshit. The loader was coded with a C64 and 1541-II and it never-ever (as in, not-one-single-time) failed on my drives. Seems that it was Shake's faulty PSU, coz he kept getting trouble running the demo on his 1541-II's (plural!). So no more bullshit about the 1571. Fuckoff and leave my loader alone... ;)
And the main issue. What I'd like to point is the fact that you can't blame one single person for this situation. It was clearly stated in the directory: "this is preview version, do not spread!!!". (maybe I should have drawn it with petscii chars, so that it's larger ;P) Yes, we'll go the hell and so will you TDJ. ;) When I told some people about the demo (before the party), I stated that we were gonna "show" the demo, not "release" it. Though, _for me_ that had nothing to do with whether it competes or not, and I was not considering a CSDb entry. Shake spoke to the organizers to see if it's possible to compete without releasing the 90% version, coz we wanted to fix the demo but there was no time. So who are you about to blame?
- me for not willing to release it
- _V_ for the idea to show a preview at PS
- Shake for accepting the idea and being the one who brought the demo to the party
- Exile for adding the entry to CSDb
- Drake for not knowing about the demo until the last minute
- the rest for not being patient ;)
There's nothing to say about the frustration, I understand all that. Rules should be more strict in the future, but taking the delay into account when one will be reviewing the demo is a bullshit. Actually I don't give a damn about it, though I'd dearly appreciate creative criticism which deals with the demo's contents.
> But that was a long time ago and I'm a better person now
> so that gives me the right to throw rocks at all those
> dirty mothafunkers that compete with unfinished products.
'k dude, I'll turn the plasma-shield on. ;P
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Vivamus bibendum sapien non sapien. Donec a eros ac metus rutrum consequat. Nullam quis est. Maecenas in nisl. Nam dolor lectus, rutrum ac, pretium in, auctor quis, leo. Cras arcu elit, ornare at, vehicula a, venenatis vel, nulla. Donec convallis imperdiet lectus. Nam tempus ullamcorper pede. Sed laoreet dui pharetra orci. Cras id ligula. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Vivamus bibendum sapien non sapien. Donec a eros ac metus rutrum consequat. Nullam quis est. Maecenas in nisl. Nam dolor lectus, rutrum ac, pretium in, auctor quis, leo. Cras arcu elit, ornare at, vehicula a, venenatis vel, nulla. Donec convallis imperdiet lectus. Nam tempus ullamcorper pede. Sed laoreet dui pharetra orci. Cras id ligula.
for the record (most used phrase in this thread): CSDb is English only!... |
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kurant
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 15 |
Tylko nie rzucajcie we mnie kamieniami. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Quote: for the record (most used phrase in this thread): CSDb is English only!...
What, you mean, you don't understand latin just like every other average CSDB user around? Bah... ;-) |
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kurant
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 15 |
Or better make your very own personalized(in generally randomized style) latin paragraph(s): http://www.lipsum.com/ |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
If I get Cybernators message correctly,the loader works.
Thus the demo worx 100%..
Sooo...Where is it?
I´d love to watch it again!!
With a better screen-quality,this time ;)
Btw,I can always attach a 1571 drive in Vice,right? ;P |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
*YAWN!*
I'm still waiting... It was only 1(0)% guys.
Okay, one more month longer and I consider this demo as vapourware :P
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
@TCH: Yes you can attach a "1541", "1541-II" or "1571" in Vice, but this hardly changes anything other than the ROM used for drive emulation. You will not encounter any real life problems in emulation. |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Working on it... at the moment, 2/3 of the team is held up by the inevitable Real Life(tm). |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Quote: Working on it... at the moment, 2/3 of the team is held up by the inevitable Real Life(tm).
If you could keep Real Life(tm) busy, maybe it would stay off _my_ back for some time! :O
ps, i want this in my disk box! :) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
@ Graham: Ofcourse,the REAL thing.
Keep forgetting that one,my damn television sux.
Guess I am just spoiled with Vice,is all. ;) |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Quote: If you could keep Real Life(tm) busy, maybe it would stay off _my_ back for some time! :O
ps, i want this in my disk box! :)
I know, but the damn concept is everywhere. Can't do it alone, sorry :). Going back to pixelling... |
