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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Hires
Some time ago I started dabbling in standard Hires mode and i find it quite enjoyable. Also people seem to like the stuff i put up on CSDB in hires mode.
This makes me wonder why not more graphicians try to use it. Imo it is pretty easy to get a hang of and quite enjoyable.
Opinions? |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Personally, it's very easy to answer this question: I'd most likely suck in pixelling hires. :D
On the other hand, I simply don't like too much the overall look of hires on C64, but that's just a matter of my lousy taste. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
Hi Ptoing, i fell in love with it aswell..
And after this weekend you'll see how much exactly ;)
Anyway, great mode indeed, but the aesthetics are somewhat different. And i suppose most oldschool pixelers like the bling of gradients too much.
Nonetheless, there've been people using that mode, i recall Hollowman and Twoflower having done some stuff in it. Also in the nineties it was quite a popular mode in Poland and the eastern scene afaik.
Still i haven't seen a singlecolour picture using the restrictions as smart and stylized way like you did. |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Nice, looking forward to that Sander. Also i know that Helm has a hires pic in the works that will blow your socks off :) Should be done soon as well.
Perhaps we can start a little hires revival :D |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
Hey Hires :)
Though not an very experienced graphician I love hires as well.
All those (great though) new 'modes' make me love plain hires even more and its IS very powerful. I'm working on a few these 'days' and hopefully one or two will get out soon.
A word of caution: im the greyshade kind of guy.
ptoing, must have a look at your work :)
Hopefully evil code will be (since it can be) done in hiresmode. Also working on that, but well...
So looking forward to new hires stuff.
Mmmh how nice - I thought I am the only one :)
Someone into Tapes maybe too? :)
Hires-pixeling is indeed relaxing...
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Tao
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 115 |
Personally I love hires graphics (and other hires formats, such as afli). My personal favourite graphician when it comes to hires is Twoflower, but your pictures were really cool too.
My upcoming demo has some really nice hires + afli graphics by Twoflower, DCMP, and Hollowman. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
I think I gave Hires a shot in the 90´s.
No matter how I tried,it always ended up looking cartoonish.
And that´s not what I like to paint,paper- or C64-wize.
It´s cool to look at when it´s done properly,though. ;) |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Triangle and Xakk also had some great hires pictures in their demos (e.g. Road to Excess and Bound to be Best) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
yes, but iirc those were single-color Hires (thought very nice ones, just saw Road on Excess two days ago).
But Id love to see drawings that actually use the power of hires :) |
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Bizzmo
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 82 |
That's the thing though isn't it. To many - myself included, it's all too easy to think of hi-res as monochrome. Producing ahi-res picture with lots of colour and no visible attribute artifacts takes a lot of planning. Anyone who even tries has my respect! |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
finally someone does this :-) I have this idea sticked into my mind since a year or so, that someone producing only hires pictures with color could really move the pixel scene. check some speccy compopix and learn some respect. |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Speccy is similar to hires but you have the only light ot dark in each character thing going on which makes it quite a bit more hardcore than C64 hires.
Here are 2 pics I made.
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
excelent! |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Some old games like 'Law of the West', 'Hardball' and 'Card Sharks' use this mode aswell. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
ptoing, respect.
btw your secondly posted picture boosted an idea in me.
a converter which would use the basic hires mode, and would fill the char places only with characters built into the c64 could produce some funny pictures :D |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
That would indeed be funny :D
I made a picture using c64 characters some time ago in promotion, but i did not know about the restrictions of the textmode, so it wont work on a real c64. In extended mode with rastersplits perhaps :/
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
i want more! |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Ptoing, can I hire you and if yes, how much do you charge per pixel? ;-)
Awesome work and fresh ideas, keep it up! |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
haha, why would you wanna hire me? I am working fulltime as 2d artist for cellphone games atm and i have TONS of projects on the side going on so i don't really have time. But i guess it depends on what you are willing to pay ;) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I was just kidding, it was meant as a compliment. :-) |
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Bizzmo
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 82 |
Dammit - I was looking to "outsource" some of my work too! ;-) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
ptoing, the easyest mode for that picture is plain hires. |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Oswald, I know, but that would defeat the point, them being made from the petscii set. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
Its not doable with core petsci, unles you make your own char set out of petsci (can only use 64) and use ECI (3 additional background colors). Plus you would need to change colors on rasterIRQs and maybe use sprites to colorize. A little bit complicated, and in my opinion not worth it - using plain hires saves a lot of headaches.
Anyway, did i said i'm impresed? |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
I'd like to see more scene graphician veterans let go of flicker pics and other overpowered modes and try something stylistically different in simple hi-res for once or twice too.
I understand the kick out of coders and graphicians making the c64 do amazing feats of graphical strength, but at some point I think the realization that the c64 has other aesthetic strengths based on it's restrictions more than it's hacked abilities should be in order. The c64 shouldn't try to be an amiga. There are so many awesome coders that it comes pretty darn close, but why try to be something you're not?
mcol with the widepixels and 3+1 colors per character will teach you more about Computer Aesthetics than converting boob photographs in some overpowered flicker mode ever will, and in my recent dabblings in hi-res I've found there's even more to explore aesthetically there. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Amen to that. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
Helm: i agree on this. One thing you forget is that most 'gfxians' don't have a helicopter perspective like you do. (they have a history, and most are not that passionate about it).
Plus, most of us can't deal with the restrictions in a stylized way e.g. you and Ptoing are doing. Lack of talent/experience.
Keep in mind: 90% of the scene will probably go for a 'photorealistic' Boris Valleyo instead. It meets their ideal of aesthetics better (their ideals being formed by scenehistory). It's sad but true. There's a lot of movement though the last couple of years demowise, this will eventually change the view on the Boris stuff aswell.
Nonetheless, you and Ptoing are definately opening eyes of the conservatives amongst us, hopefully it pays off.
My 5 euros. |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
Most graphicians are passionate about the scene only because of nostalgia and not because of what the machine itself stands for aesthetically. Same with the Amiga, where the best pixel technicians occured (Made, Danny, Lazur, so on) there was so much interest because the Amiga was cutting edge. When most of these people switched to Photoshop (as that was cutting edge then), they made -in my opinion- mostly bad or uninspired art. What changed? What changed was the limitation of the machines. They were working on Computer Aesthetic without knowing it. The discipline of hand-pixelling, of fixing your color ramps yourself, not just blur tool, dodge tool and photo tracing. You can pixel a c64 mcol pic today on a PC and still respect and understand that methodology and the aesthetic it feeds. The c64 is no longer cutting edge. But it is magical.
I think the c64 is amazingly potent. Widepixels, the BEST DAMN 16 COLOR PALETTE EVER, restricted modes, character limits. All this stuff should be in the art. Reminding the user that he's not seeing a picture that could be anywhere else than on the c64. |
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Bizzmo
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 82 |
You can't go wrong with "lizards and ladies" though can you? *ahem*
I personally enjoy the challenge posed by multi-colour pixels, the limite palette etc, and must admit that I'm asking myself why I never tried hi-res... |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
> I think the c64 is amazingly potent. Widepixels, the BEST
> DAMN 16 COLOR PALETTE EVER, restricted modes, character
> limits. All this stuff should be in the art. Reminding the
> user that he's not seeing a picture that could be anywhere
> else than on the c64.
It does not work like this. If you have no restrictions you can make any picture you could do with restrictions. Not vice versa.
Besides - for me, as for many others - demos scene is about doing impossible, not about limiting yourself to restrictions. Though i've always been more of a coder than artist. |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
Yeah if you have no restrictions you can photoedit/retouch that picture of boobs+dragon so much easier. That's what I call innovation.
Working within restrictions is a challenging environment that promotes smart solutions to problems and forces you to be aesthetically strong. |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
I am with Helm on this one. Whe i first tackled Hires I was thinking about how I could utilise it without trying to hide the restrictions and so came up with the chunk style i used for yus chunk. If I would not have had the restrictions i would have NEVER come up with this style, hence the point of aesthetic growth through restrictions.
Restrictions can also be freeing immensly, you know exactly what you deal with, no confusing stuff like more complicated modes, much less getting used to.
I agree that demoscene is about "showing the impossible" to a certain extent, but that should not hinder demos like Trans*Form or The Throkmorton Device to flourish. Nothing in those demos is mindblowing effectswise, but the clear graffic style they have is great and sometimes much more enjoable that zero-design-effect-slideshow demos. Those may be highly enjoyable for coders (Coderporn), but not so much for others maybe. I can appreciate a good effect and have been gobsmacked tons of times, but there are not enough designdriven demos in the C64 demoscene and I think this is more or less because of the same reason. Innovation is mainly seen in making new, better, faster effects and less coherence. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
I like hires. There is nothing wrong with people using the more standard modes. As a bad coder it is sometimes nice to work with sometimes technically simpler modes. Frees up resources to dedicate for other things or do add effects via code.
Hires is also nice with certain colour choice because it more easily can be used in text modes or in to diskmags. Also compresses better.
Makes me remember Time Waster or something by Focus (my mind is failing me) which was very nice. From memory that used hires. Variety is the spice of life :) |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Very true Stryyker. Without variety life would be quite boring. I am not saying "OMG HIRES AND MCOL ONLY!", I would just like to encourage people who normally don't do it to try it. And I am working on an MCI picture myself atm, which should hopefully be released soonish. :) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Some people like the make life difficult for themselves by working in restricted mode. |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
as i said above, restriction can be freeing :) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: Helm: i agree on this. One thing you forget is that most 'gfxians' don't have a helicopter perspective like you do. (they have a history, and most are not that passionate about it).
Plus, most of us can't deal with the restrictions in a stylized way e.g. you and Ptoing are doing. Lack of talent/experience.
Keep in mind: 90% of the scene will probably go for a 'photorealistic' Boris Valleyo instead. It meets their ideal of aesthetics better (their ideals being formed by scenehistory). It's sad but true. There's a lot of movement though the last couple of years demowise, this will eventually change the view on the Boris stuff aswell.
Nonetheless, you and Ptoing are definately opening eyes of the conservatives amongst us, hopefully it pays off.
My 5 euros.
90%? I think you've missed out lately. These days hardly any serious (and grown-up) gfx-dude draws Borisses. Also not in PC-scene or Amiga scene. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: as i said above, restriction can be freeing :)
I disagree. Restriction fits personality, maybe it feels freeing. Letting go of restriction can feel strange for some, because the personality wants perfection. |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
It has nothing to do with perfection imo, just with challenge. I like to think when i pixel. That is why i hardly do anything else than c64 stuff in my freetime pixelwise. When i want unrestricted i just use photoshop. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
Quote: 90%? I think you've missed out lately. These days hardly any serious (and grown-up) gfx-dude draws Borisses. Also not in PC-scene or Amiga scene.
Yes there are - and i blame you.
Throw all 'gfxians' on one pile, and pick out those who're NOT into fantasy art kitsch. I'm not talking about the currently active people, but over the years.
90% was an understatement even. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: Yes there are - and i blame you.
Throw all 'gfxians' on one pile, and pick out those who're NOT into fantasy art kitsch. I'm not talking about the currently active people, but over the years.
90% was an understatement even.
Blame me? How so? It was just a product of time, just check out the game-boxes from that time, lotsa Boris sort of stuff.
Besides, what's fantasy art kitch? What defines this? |
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Bizzmo
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 82 |
Somewhere to keep the "fantasy art fridge?"
I think all the fantasy art stuff was a product of the time and also the age/interests of the people pixelling... |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Something just came to my mind. It's funny how the demoscene, which is based on new ideas and innovation and "creating the impossible" was/is quite conservative and not very outside the box mostly when it comes to graphics. |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
I think that is -if it's true, it's an interesting thought- because the scene is based around demoparties and releases which are in constant competition, where therefore you try to dazzle the crowd with not so much SKILL IN PIXELLING, but drawing photorealistic or close-to, dragons, boobs and assorted. eye-candy. Some people said my picture eve looked like it had artifacts of corruption, and I think that's absolutely great! Wait 'till you see the new hires pic I'm doing, it'll probably make eyes bleed. But if a picture that looked corrupted came up on the screen guess how many votes I'd get? The demoscene voters don't seem ready to be challenged by the art in compos, but the artists should not bow to the demand of 'easy' (regardless of how skilled) pictures! They should train their audience to understand aesthetic, not only boobs.
Right now, if let's say a picture by Gustav Klimt was shown on the screen at a demoparty he'd probably rank very low, and a picture by Boris, or even worse, a PHOTOGRAPH of boobs would win :P |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
Quote: I think that is -if it's true, it's an interesting thought- because the scene is based around demoparties and releases which are in constant competition, where therefore you try to dazzle the crowd with not so much SKILL IN PIXELLING, but drawing photorealistic or close-to, dragons, boobs and assorted. eye-candy. Some people said my picture eve looked like it had artifacts of corruption, and I think that's absolutely great! Wait 'till you see the new hires pic I'm doing, it'll probably make eyes bleed. But if a picture that looked corrupted came up on the screen guess how many votes I'd get? The demoscene voters don't seem ready to be challenged by the art in compos, but the artists should not bow to the demand of 'easy' (regardless of how skilled) pictures! They should train their audience to understand aesthetic, not only boobs.
Right now, if let's say a picture by Gustav Klimt was shown on the screen at a demoparty he'd probably rank very low, and a picture by Boris, or even worse, a PHOTOGRAPH of boobs would win :P
Check this: http://noname.c64.org/csdb/toplist.php?type=release&subtype=%28..
Thank god for Electric. Happy browsing. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Also check the lower entries. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
As i see it there are two ablilities mixed we are talking about. One is to draw excelent pictures, the other is to be able to work with atributes restrictions. Both are rare. Both are something very valuable. People who has both of them are even more rare, and i'm even more impressed when i see pictures that both look nice, and were technicaly challenging to be drawn. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: I think that is -if it's true, it's an interesting thought- because the scene is based around demoparties and releases which are in constant competition, where therefore you try to dazzle the crowd with not so much SKILL IN PIXELLING, but drawing photorealistic or close-to, dragons, boobs and assorted. eye-candy. Some people said my picture eve looked like it had artifacts of corruption, and I think that's absolutely great! Wait 'till you see the new hires pic I'm doing, it'll probably make eyes bleed. But if a picture that looked corrupted came up on the screen guess how many votes I'd get? The demoscene voters don't seem ready to be challenged by the art in compos, but the artists should not bow to the demand of 'easy' (regardless of how skilled) pictures! They should train their audience to understand aesthetic, not only boobs.
Right now, if let's say a picture by Gustav Klimt was shown on the screen at a demoparty he'd probably rank very low, and a picture by Boris, or even worse, a PHOTOGRAPH of boobs would win :P
Gustav Klimt is 'boxed' by Art Nouveau/Art Deco. Deco stands for decorative thus eyecandy. Some people I know consider this kitch. (Not me though, I think it's very skilled with a bit of artistic value) |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453 |
most pix don't fall in a strict 'photorealistic eyecandy' category, neither into a 'broken down avantgarde' category. most of the pix i've seen are somewhere in between. it's probably the greatest achievement to perfectly mix the two - skills and freshness.
but i'm no gfx-man (i mean, completely), therefore i can be hopelessly wrong. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
Quote: As i see it there are two ablilities mixed we are talking about. One is to draw excelent pictures, the other is to be able to work with atributes restrictions. Both are rare. Both are something very valuable. People who has both of them are even more rare, and i'm even more impressed when i see pictures that both look nice, and were technicaly challenging to be drawn.
Imho what Helm and Ptoing mean: it's about seeing to beauty of the restictions and cultivating them. Resulting in aesthetics that seem authentic for the machine.
But that's probably too academic for most of us.
Kitsch? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch
(makes my 'Obstacles' kitsch aswell! :) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
Hm, the demo-scene would not be what it is if there were no restrictions (I think). For me thats all what it is about - live and be challenged by them. I doubt people would have fun coding Javascript-demos.
As for pixeling I think there is something new. I too prefer(ed) photorealism on c64 - maybe since that seemed so impossible in the beginning. I even awed at that one-color red-black hires woman on that c64 demo-disk.
Today photorealism is almost boring again. Since the new formats allow for it - not for free but it seems doable these days. And I have great respect for those creating these wonders. Like that batgirl. Would have knocked by of my feet in the 90s and does so today :) But in a way because its so not c64-like :) Same with demo-effects (sometimes). The less 1 mhz it looks, the cooler. But imho only recently things changed sometimes. More artistic gfx - DCMP is a stunning example of that and quite a few others as well. Or more gfx showing off pure pixel-skill. Ptoing seems a perfect example of a mixture of those two. Or again, achieving 'realism' by whatever means possible. Personally I feel challenged by Hires that does not look Hires. Or by mere multicolor that looks like fli or ifli or whatever (mermaid pops into my head there).
Demowise that would maybe be the style-demos that seem to split the audience. Somewhere inbetweens 'thats the new kick needed' or 'lame amiga/pc-demo alikes'.
I love it all ;) seriously. Im ok with 1fps raytracer that look like shit but are cool since they're on c64. Also I love smooth colors/music/style even though its not (just) code-skills in there.
Im even fine with 100% converted pictures if they make use of their possibilities. With that I may stand alone :)
Only with music Im different. I cant value mere skill there. If I dont like it, Im not good enough to judge its skill.
Hehe, my thoughts on this must be very interessting for you all. Ok, break is over.
In short - how cool it is that the variety increases in all areas!
Or as Mr.Spock put it once:
"The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity." |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
Quote: Gustav Klimt is 'boxed' by Art Nouveau/Art Deco. Deco stands for decorative thus eyecandy. Some people I know consider this kitch. (Not me though, I think it's very skilled with a bit of artistic value)
Decorative doesn't mean eye-candy. It means decorative. This can go either way though, because there's Art Deco, and there's Interior Decoration. The artistic intention weilds the signifier. If you look at art by mister Klimt you will see that the repetitive patterns he uses, of red and gold, have an extremely strong aesthetic effect. They (amongst other things, I am no art critic) flatten planes and diffuse the volume of what is otherwise the most multifaceted object in his works: the female form. This juxtaposition between flat patterned clothing and extremely rendered flesh is imperative in the appreciation of Klimt's work. Is this
http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/klimt/klimt35.jpg
or this
http://www.el-harmani.se/Gustav%20Klimt.JPG
concept close to what eye-candy could mean for most people?
Eye-candy is crowd-pleasing art, fan service. Things that you immediately understand, and enjoy. Like drawings of nude girls in suggestive poses, barbarians with huge swords, cyborgs or dragons spitting fire. All these things are fine. The artists that make these pictures, some of them have influenced me and I love them. Some of them are from the demoscene. Most of them copy their art from non-digital artists, but that's a whoooole different discussion. I wish these artists would flex their rendering methods and their years of experience pushing pixels, in drawing something that is infused with more meaning than gloss. You know, as a break between the cybog boobs and the dragons. Just a few times. But I can't make anyone do anything. |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Quote: Imho what Helm and Ptoing mean: it's about seeing to beauty of the restictions and cultivating them. Resulting in aesthetics that seem authentic for the machine.
But that's probably too academic for most of us.
Kitsch? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch
(makes my 'Obstacles' kitsch aswell! :)
Bingo about the first part. That is what we would call Computer Aesthetic. An own form of aesthetic that can only come due to the limitations of (mostly) low end computers. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
But that would make every c64 gfx fall into the category of Computer Aesthetic. Because the cultivation starts whenever it's digitized (handmade or scanned). |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
Quote: But that would make every c64 gfx fall into the category of Computer Aesthetic. Because the cultivation starts whenever it's digitized (handmade or scanned).
This is as much correct as believing all hand-made art shares the same aesthetic properties because it's hand-made. Boris and Klimt, sitting on a tree...
Please consider the concept a bit more deeply. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Actually I do believe that yes. It's just a matter of perception. A monkey doing a messy doodle is just as aesthetic as an intellectual describing the truth of the world in one beautifull poetic sentence. |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
Well that is an interesting opinion. |
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Ben
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 163 |
Quote: Actually I do believe that yes. It's just a matter of perception. A monkey doing a messy doodle is just as aesthetic as an intellectual describing the truth of the world in one beautifull poetic sentence.
Considering the eternity, it is about as pointless, but I doubt that that is what this discussion is about :) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
lotsa pointless, the empty spaces between the pixels. |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Hein, you seem bitter. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
In the end we all have our very personal reasons to pixel on this machine. Hard to judge, as it remains a relative and subjective matter.
But i think it's an advantage for all to share visions and ideas, and discuss them. |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
As artist you also see not only the aestethic value of what you've done but there is a sentimental value to it - I have strong feelings for some of my work simply because I know how much time I've spent on it.
Not that I have any idea how that fits into the discussion. I should namedrop more. |
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Ben
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 163 |
Quote: Hein, you seem bitter.
It all is a matter of taste.. I personally think Hein is of a good year; rich, bitter-sweet with woody aftertaste.. <3 |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Quote: lotsa pointless, the empty spaces between the pixels.
Hein, the empty spaces are also pixels! they're just a different colour :)
the glass is not half empty or half full, it's always completely full |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
yes. thats so. pointless pixels. Just a play of words, in the nerdy tradition. It's with gfx just like with music, the rests between the notes are just as important as the notes themselves. So actually this was kinda the point of this discussion, Hires, where rests meet notes. But it's also what Dane says, emotional attachment to the things an artist creates (how else can an artist create something?), without thinking/discussing about the aesthetic proportions. Thats why I never cultivated the formats I worked in, just doing what I felt was good at that time, working with whatever is needed to get the thing done.
Then there's the issue of copying. Its not very difficult to copy something, nor is it difficult to create abstract(ish) art, and it's even less difficult to give a personal touch to a piece, because thats a sideproduct of the creation process. Lucky us. |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
"because thats a sideproduct of the creation process."
I agree with this. If you sit down and copy the Mona Lisa, and you really really invest in it and suffer the hours it needs to be done right, chances are you'll end up with YOUR Mona Lisa to a degree, especially if you're transfering the subject from one technical method to another (like oils - pixels). In fact, a pic by Lazur that's based on a Thorgal comic, I like it more than the original.
That's a very hefty thing to say: I like a copy more than the original.
So there is merit in that whole procedure. But, in the end for every accidental bit of magic in a copy that was drawn as you say 'automatically' without any thought given to design or aesthetic choices, there's 100 pictures that are just bad copies, empty art. Now, is this bad? Up to anyone's opinion. What is certain is that the artists don't become better at standing on their own feet through this process. Lazur is probably the most masterful technician when it comes to Amiga pixel art. Any of you seen any of his photoshop nocopy pieces?
So, a scene full of people that have learned to copy, even possibly have learned to OUTDO the original, but cannot create on the same level without using reference. Is this a good thing?
I personally will go for art that is infused with both honesty and meaning. The meaning might not be anything earth-shattering (in fact the meaning might as well ocassionaly be "I like boobs"), but it will be mine and not emergent from my copying of someone else's meaning. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
I'll bite off my tongue for another couple of days.
BUT - Where are the damn Wrath Twins? This is THE stage to justify their, often considered, pretentious 'reviews'.
And especially for Joe, who has done some pioneering work in dithering - he should be here. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
I think I learned quite a lot from copying. Use of colours, lighting (and the reflection of light), shadow, composition (allthough not conscious), flexed muscles and all that. I do not think technique is most important, but it does help to be able to use a richer palet of possibilities.
I've not seen much of Lazur's pictures, I presume they're of the same kind of proportions as Danny's, whom I've shared quite some times with, discussing about pixels. I remember I swapped my 100 Boris trading cards with a SF book he had. He was into bodybuilding himself, so I guess both of us found it a good deal, since I was working on a shoot m up game. His mom also thought he was the best pixeler on the planet, which is just sweet. So beware, before you say anything bad about copying Borises. :) |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
Every picture is a copy, be that copy of natural world, or author's imagination. Copying other art can teach you a lot, especialy copying it on restricted media like c64 screnmodes, teaching you how to deal wit those restriction - so you can make beter copies - beter copies of your imagination, or anything :)
Artist like Boris are copiers too. Almost all of Boris's pictures start as a photo of soe models... |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
"I think I learned quite a lot from copying."
I consider this to be true. There's a huge difference between copying something bit by bit with the brain shut-down, and actually thinking why the original artist did it as he did in the first place as you copy. There's a lot to learn just by intimately looking at a piece of art for a long time, let alone during remaking it.
The difference is, when I copy for study purposes, to learn, I keep the result in my hard disk. I don't give it to compos for easy wins.
That being said, would you say Hein, that your no copy work is on the same level, and is equally enjoyed by the people that follow your artwork, as your copy stuff? I think if somebody consistently copies, besides the specialized skill-set that he will develop especially for copying (Lazur-disease), he will give his peers the illusion that he is 'that good', win compos, be considered an awesome graphician. Anywhere he then desires to go from there standing on his own two feet will seem as a step down.
"Every picture is a copy, be that copy of natural world, or author's imagination."
I'm sorry, this is dangerously generalized a statement. What you see in your imagination is not a picture you can scan and photomanip. To equate someone who takes a picture of another artist and repixels and signs it, and someone who pixels something from his imagination is asinine, I think.
"Artist like Boris are copiers too. Almost all of Boris's pictures start as a photo of soe models..."
Using reference and copying isn't the same thing. Boris had models, and he photographed them and used these photographs as reference. But if you see the photo, and the end result, you'll realize the lighting conditions, the composition, the backgrounds, the clothes, EVERYTHING but the basic physique of the model he mostly uses as a safety-net is done from imagination. And in the end, he took (his own) photos, he didn't use somebody else's art and then sign it with his own name instead of the real artist.
I'm sorry for ranting, but I find copying to be a real wound in the (/in any) scene and I think apologetics of it should be replied to. At the same time, please remember I am not attacking any of the old masters, nor trivializing their art. I respect the past, but I don't think it should bind the future. |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
I'll have to say that not everyone is a great artist, either. Copying other peoples images is IMO a viable solution for those who lack proper artistic skill to create their own works from scratch. People shouldn't be shut out from the craft of pixeling just because they aren't trained artists, and a lot of productions benefit greatly from well made replicas. When used in a demo, inside a new context, it can become as brand new just through that.
Though I agree somewhat that it's a bit lame to enter graphics compos with straight 1:1 conversions, one has to remember that it's called a GRAPHICS compo, not an ART compo. Thus, strictly speaking, originality should have no influence on the results. Personally I like original art a lot better than well made replicas, though, and I'd like to see more focus on art and less focus on graphics quality in the scene. That's just a wish on my behalf, however. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
stop talking crap and just show nice hires pics here plz! :D |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
"Every picture is a copy, be that copy of natural world, or author's imagination."
Yeah, sure. A very philosofical statement, sure we are the curators of our own world/art, but that's different to copying a picture, without adding something to it. What makes the copied picture yours, craft? I think Helm has a clear statement about this, and anyone doing art/graphics on a less amateur level would/should agree on this.
And don't compare those c64 copies to artists like Marcel Duchamp, who even used other people's designs/object for his own art. We/you are not worthy.
"one has to remember that it's called a GRAPHICS compo, not an ART compo."
I've never seen any disclaimer about this. Plus, the criteria for the music compo (where covers are mostly not accepted) - should apply for the 'GFX' compo aswell.
And i think Boris is a crappy 'artist'. No wonder he's been doing the same shit for decades.
"Stop talking crap and just show nice hires pics here plz! :D"
Go away! |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
Quote: "Every picture is a copy, be that copy of natural world, or author's imagination."
Yeah, sure. A very philosofical statement, sure we are the curators of our own world/art, but that's different to copying a picture, without adding something to it. What makes the copied picture yours, craft? I think Helm has a clear statement about this, and anyone doing art/graphics on a less amateur level would/should agree on this.
And don't compare those c64 copies to artists like Marcel Duchamp, who even used other people's designs/object for his own art. We/you are not worthy.
"one has to remember that it's called a GRAPHICS compo, not an ART compo."
I've never seen any disclaimer about this. Plus, the criteria for the music compo (where covers are mostly not accepted) - should apply for the 'GFX' compo aswell.
And i think Boris is a crappy 'artist'. No wonder he's been doing the same shit for decades.
"Stop talking crap and just show nice hires pics here plz! :D"
Go away!
"What makes the copied picture yours, craft?"
I would ask:
"What makes picture yours?"
Is it enough if you draw it yourself?
Does the subject has to be unique?
If i draw an apple, after somebody else draw an apple - is it still consider to be copy?
How different has it to be?
Where is the line between copied and inspired?
What is the purpose of art? Is it just eye candy? Should it inspire? Should it provoke? Should it wonder you? Is it neccesary to do all or any of those to be art?
Sure, this discusion will lead us to nowhere, but the process of just walking that path is intresting...
:)
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
Quote: "What makes the copied picture yours, craft?"
I would ask:
"What makes picture yours?"
Is it enough if you draw it yourself?
Does the subject has to be unique?
If i draw an apple, after somebody else draw an apple - is it still consider to be copy?
How different has it to be?
Where is the line between copied and inspired?
What is the purpose of art? Is it just eye candy? Should it inspire? Should it provoke? Should it wonder you? Is it neccesary to do all or any of those to be art?
Sure, this discusion will lead us to nowhere, but the process of just walking that path is intresting...
:)
This is not mathematics. None of the above is compulsory i guess, but it's not a black/white situation. And it's very personal where to draw the line. And ofcourse, there's interpretation and registration. Registration, imho, on a level of technical skill, and interpretation would bring in a personal touch. (anything from style to concept).
What you're really asking is 'Define art'. And none really can.
Here're 2 beach pictures.
http://www.walrusproductions.com/images/zhawaiianbeachlg.gif
http://www.banksy.co.uk/outdoors/palestine/images/wall/pal05.jpg
Can you draw the line? Ofcourse you can.
'Sure, this discusion will lead us to nowhere, but the process of just walking that path is intresting... :)'
Let's avoid the 'what is art' discussion, and it could actually lead somewhere.
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
"http://www.walrusproductions.com/images/zhawaiianbeachlg.gif
http://www.banksy.co.uk/outdoors/palestine/images/wall/pal05.jpg
Can you draw the line? Ofcourse you can."
No I dont. If the first one was painted by some "big name" it would be considered art, while if it was painted by some unknow guy it would be kitch, or whatever you spell it.
I like the second one, while i dont like the first one. But I also like Boris Valeho, Jullie Bell and the like, and most of those c64 copies of them too (moslty because they fit into both parts of my definition at the same time). I also like hires pictures, Ptoing is my hero for that format.
I'm a simple man and my definition of art is simple:
function bool isThatArt(object o){
if(doILikeItsLook(o) || doesItImpressMe(o)) return true;
return false;
}
Note that I can find piece of code as Artish as picture or music. Many of the people in SCDb i find as artists, though i cant say that about most of the authors of the "art" we can see at art galeries. But its very personal point of view. :) |
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Ben
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 163 |
As a side-note: the very notion of creating art on a C64 actually is relatively new. Only just a few years ago, people dismissed art as lack of skills of doing hardcore..
Rogers already taught us that diffusion (here: of ideas, i.e. convincing the conservative majority) requires (the approval of) a peer first-mover with proven merits, not imposition by an external innovator..
I truly am a layman, and I have not done research, but I belief that people like Tommi, Sander/Marco, Mikael/Henrik and Vanja have played an important role I preparing and tenderizing the early majority to relay their norms. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
@Jetboy: Ok.. Realise that particular guy would not get a 'big name' because of this painting. And like the 2nd picture shows, it's sometimes context sensitive. (it's painted on the Israeli apartheid wall.) Or like Dutch Breeze would look poor compared to Krestology.
And i'm not saying my perception on this all overrules any of yours; it's great to like stuff. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
"That being said, would you say Hein, that your no copy work is on the same level, and is equally enjoyed by the people that follow your artwork, as your copy stuff?"
I do not think it's enjoyed by people more, rather less (the average scener, that is). Personally I like the 5 minute doodles I've done more than the fantasy 'art' stuff I've done on both C64 & Amiga. I think those doodles are on a higher level (technically they're totally rubbish) than any other thing I've done. Guess my c-64/Amiga gfx are a legacy that've become a burdon in a way. Awell, we all gotta start somewhere.
I suppose you're refering to technical/graphical skills used in homemade drawings, compared to copying Boris. To be honest, I do not have such smooth technique, my hand is a restless piece of machinary, it ofcourse can't be compared to Boris's steady violin hand, controlled by his enlightened triceps. |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
I can't remember how all this started and I may be missing the point, but to those who would still prefer to just do straight copies, I'd recommend trying to do something else if not simply because it's more fun!
I don't think most of my work from the past few years looks as technically impressive as when I just copied everything, but I don't really care because I find it much more enjoyable to create my own designs, as well as more rewarding. I do sometimes use sources from 3rd party photographs, but they're chosen with a purpose to help create in pixels a vision in my head.
In viewing other people's graphics I'm also much more interested in seeing interesting ideas than perfect pixelling. Creating something that purely relies on technical skills just doesn't seem like much of a challenge anymore. |
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Bizzmo
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 82 |
...bugger. Looks like I might as well give up now! Just when I was getting back into things again! ;-) |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
I was under the impression C64 Graphics was all about combining artistry with craftmanship? Not only should it look good / interesting / stylish / provocative - but it should also be a technical challenge? A demonstration of your skills to impress others?
If it's not then I'm sorry Roland, a lot of work for no good there! |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
I think "C64 Graphics >is< all about combining artistry with craftmanship", however this is such a subjective topic that its pointless to argue on this. |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
Is there really such a huge technical challenge in copying something? I agree there is some. But if there was, wouldn't you say the first 10 years of scene history would have exhausted any challenge left in translating a high-res photo/boris boob picture into c64 limitations?
What's even more pertinent to ask: now that Timanthes does the straight conversion, the tech side of things better and faster than most sceners, and with a bit of touch-up after, better than ALL of them, is there any point left in that venue of approach?
I agree trying to be the best and impressing your peers is deeply fundamental in scene artwork. To lose sight of that and just do 'modern arty' pieces that only you yourself realize the significance of would simply not do if that became a widespread practise in scene art. I don't think either the technical side, or the conceptual side of pixel art (or 'pixel graphics' if you will, I don't see the difference.) on the c64 have been exhausted.
The tech can get a liiitle bit better, especially AA technique, which I find even hardcore awesome artists around here sometimes neglect. Mermaid basically highscored dithering pretty early on. There's not much more to it, the palette is fixed, it can do specific tricks. In contrast, the conceptual side of things can be taken an extremely long way yet. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Hmm,the reason why I don´t bother wasting time on doing pencil-portraits anymore.
Get a PC and it will make it in 1 minute instead of four days..
"Timanthes replaces the C64-pixeler"
Sure,I use sources to make my pictures.
I am a watcher,not an art-expert or `artist´.
Just being glad that Timanthes doesn´t support (M)UFLI..yet.. ;)
Please take into consideration that most of the people pixelling on the C64 nowadays,don´t have a 20-years experience,myself included.
Conceptually,agreed.
Hope you like my next picture.
It´s BOOBISH!! ;P |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
boobs make me happy |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quote: I think "C64 Graphics >is< all about combining artistry with craftmanship", however this is such a subjective topic that its pointless to argue on this.
I agree with the statement totally.
If you put a great designer in front of a C64 and tell them to create something, they would require the technical skills to make it look good in a low resolution and in 16 colours or the end result will still be poor.
If you put someone who is great technically infront of a C64 and yet they're not using their imagination, you will probably get a girl and a dragon.
The second of these examples has occured regularly on the C64, so a greater balance between artistry and craftmanship creates a much more exciting scene in my opinion. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: boobs make me happy
Hehe,they always smile! 8)
Ps,there is more to life.. ;) |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
" the conceptual side of things can be taken an extremely long way yet."
Why would you need c64 for that? Other media give you more opportunities to develop conceptualy. |
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Bizzmo
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 82 |
So in a nutshell, weuld everyone agree that creativity should be rewarded, both in concept/subject/composition and also in technique? |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
Quote: " the conceptual side of things can be taken an extremely long way yet."
Why would you need c64 for that? Other media give you more opportunities to develop conceptualy.
Very true. Been asked this before - and i have no valid answer for it.
But for Ptoing and Helm, it's different - they came to the c64 for projecting their vision on the machine (mind you, not the scene ;), because of the restrictions. |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
Yes. My interest is pixel art. I am not so much interested in the scene as I am in the machine it revolves around itself. I come from a different pixelling background, originally Amiga/PC, and I return to this older machine, with which I had very limited experience when it was first around (check my age) because it is potent aesthetically.
"Why would you need c64 for that? Other media give you more opportunities to develop conceptualy."
Different media for different concepts. There are things the c64 can do that no other computer can. If you'd rather I left it alone and went on my convulted conceptual path elsewhere, not rocking the scene boat as it were, I'm sorry, I still have things to do with my widepixels and hires :) |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
"There are things the c64 can do that no other computer can."
Like what? |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
edit: Sorry for double posting - it was accident.
So what are those things C64 can do and PC cannot? Maybe i'm dumb, but i cant think of any. I run vice every other day, and my PC is doing everything c64 can.
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
I'm afraid it'd would be unfair to reply to this by posting images by past and recent legends and then play the 'I agree/dissagre' game with you. Work that answer our for yourself if you believe my opinion might potentially have merit. |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
Quote: edit: Sorry for double posting - it was accident.
So what are those things C64 can do and PC cannot? Maybe i'm dumb, but i cant think of any. I run vice every other day, and my PC is doing everything c64 can.
change its color when you smoke a lot!
edit: an amazing bug changed the post id when i hit QUOTE
Quote:"There are things the c64 can do that no other computer can."
Like what?
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
My friend is a heavy smoker, and his PCs are changing colors alot :) |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
Whether the PC or another machine can display graphics made for the c64 is really not what I am talking about.
I am talking about of the aesthetic qualities that occur out of working in the c64 limitations. What platfrom you might do that on really has no bearing, for me. I do my c64 art on a PC, I've never touched Koala Paint. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
Quote: I'm afraid it'd would be unfair to reply to this by posting images by past and recent legends and then play the 'I agree/dissagre' game with you. Work that answer our for yourself if you believe my opinion might potentially have merit.
You made a simple statement. Give a simple ansver.
What can c64 do that PC cant?
I remind you that we were speaking about conceptual development. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Sorry for the interruption, but the only thing I don't get is what kind of (Boris/Bell/whatever) copies or dragons are you constantly referring to?
I haven't seen a fantasy copy since ages (the last few major ones were released in Royal Arte, at least what I can recall of). An that was... what, five years ago?
In fact, nowadays we could hardly run into "one by one" copies, especially on compos.
As for the main subject, hey, it is one of the most subjective things. Personally, I put more weight on the craftmanship, and my taste probably originates from my studies, as I'm a typographist by profession. Artwork, freshness and originality always seemed obsolete in everyday DTP/typography, where my work relied on technical skills, and much less from the improvisation.
One of the main reasons I pixel or draw on paper is to fulfill my own enjoyment... |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
So you admit - pc can do everything c64 can. You do all your art on PC. |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
"what kind of (Boris/Bell/whatever) copies or dragons are you constantly referring to?"
There isn't much Boris left, yes. After all, about all his pieces were copied more than once in the years of the combined commodore scenes... But there's still a lot of copies from other sources and sadly a lot of what either is, or seems to be wired straight conversions to interlace with minor touch-ups.
Jetboy:
The PC can do (almost) everything the c64 can, as it is a newer machine. I say almost because flicker pics don't flicker very convincingly on vice yet, the palettes we have are pretty darn close but not exact VIC palettes, and SID emulation last time I checked isn't 100% either. And of course, we are looking at the demos and art on computer screens, and not TVs, and that's a huge difference and always will be.
But art made on the c64, the PC or on any other platform that can do it, smartly navigating the technological-cum-abstract limitations of the c64 creates a very singular art style. That was, and remains my point.
So what do I admit to exactly by saying I work on the PC? We're both sitting in front of a PC (or pray tell, a mac?) right now. Your conclusions are your own to make. I believe I was pretty clear. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: So you admit - pc can do everything c64 can. You do all your art on PC.
So just because you *can* do something on another machine/in another scene, you *must* do it as well? |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
Quote: So you admit - pc can do everything c64 can. You do all your art on PC.
Like Helm said earlier: 'I am talking about of the aesthetic qualities that occur out of working in the c64 limitations.'
What about crossdevelopers? |
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MRT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 149 |
Quoting SanderWhat about crossdevelopers?
Oooh... Is this a way into this little discussion for coders??? |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: Quoting SanderWhat about crossdevelopers?
Oooh... Is this a way into this little discussion for coders???
No, we shouldn't enter this discussion.
Those artists see us coders as a bunch of faul-mouthed constructionworkers who are only good for displaying their stuff.
---
8Bit Mayhem - The Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
Quote: No, we shouldn't enter this discussion.
Those artists see us coders as a bunch of faul-mouthed constructionworkers who are only good for displaying their stuff.
---
8Bit Mayhem - The Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/
That only goes for you, Roland.. ;) |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: That only goes for you, Roland.. ;)
Huu... ;(
---
8Bit Mayhem - The Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
Helm: I feel the difference between watching demos on PC and watching them on real thing. But conceptualy c64 is not giving you any extra psoibilities you wouldnt have on PC, or other modern machine. Opposite, it gives you restrictions.
You can aply all those restrictions on PC. Ha! You can invent any kind of restriction on PC and impose them on your art, or rather draw with those restrictions in mind. Not only you can create in c64 imposed aestetics, you can create your own aestetics - isnt that worth more for an artist? Being able to create their own aestetics, own style? Being original? It seems that it is what you pursue. You disregard people who draw "copies". Isnt using c64 aestetics instead of inventing your own the same as drawing Boris pictures on c64?
Technical hint: As for flicering in Vice - if you set your refresh to multiple of 50Hz it is bearable, with 50Hz it's almost the same as on c64. 100 and 150 Hz looks even beter as it seems to flicker less - but its less c64ish. |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
I am a comic artist by trade. I do stuff like this:
www.locustleaves.com/cinemabig.png
www.locustleaves.com/robotboy.png
When I make comics, I don't try to draw stuff that looks ultra-realistic, nor do I try to make comics that read like tv-shows or movies. I try to make comics that could only be comics, nothing else. To play up the individual strengths of the medium, so to speak.
So similarily, when I try to do Pixel Art, I try to find what the aesthetics that are inherent to it are, and play those up too. I don't want to do Computer Art that looks like oil on canvas. I should do that with oil... on a canvas (a point to consider is that nobody should be above translating an oil-technique effect to say, digital art. Cross-polination breeds innovation). So from this line of thinking I started to ponder on the inherent characteristics of the medium, and realized that they are borne of technical restrictions. Bit restrictions, tile restrictions, character restrictions. These were not, originally arbiterate, but rather imposed by technology. The semiotic significance therefore of Pixel Art, that which for me places is it as a disparate form of art than the generic 'Digitalized Art', is that which arises out of, but also seemingly transcends restrictions, while still being respectful of them. The absolute CONTROL of the artist over the atom (read: pixel) of his artistic universe (read: picture he's working on). No other art has such fine control. The control is borne from the limitation! Isn't that magical?
I am sure coders, musicians, just as much as graphicians on the c64 can appreciate this point. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
So what was your problem with Boris copiers again? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
oh my god, you could also have asked "why do you code on c64 when a pc can do anything and more a c64 can do?"
When someone asked George Mallory that why he have climbed the Everest he simply answered: "Because it's there"
Hope this one is statisying. If still not then the final answer is 42. |
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Wile Coyote
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 637 |
@Ptoing. Since you like hires, you should give the UFLI editor a go :) |
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Ben
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 163 |
Thanks for the split-pass, Oswald.
Many arguments revolve around the intricate answer on the questions: WHY create art? And why create ART?
(Thank God, not: WHAT IS art!)
The answer finds its roots in the very essence of human sapiens, probably in the socio-psychological ego fulfilment and social status? |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 212 |
What bothers me is why people like Helm have a problem with other people creating whatever they create (boris copies in that case). And tell those people what is right and whats not.
ya, because "they know beter".
ya, 42. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Hell,I prefer Donald Duck issues to watching -and analyzing- `art´ in general. ;)
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
I'm sorry you feel that way. I am not telling anyone what to do nor what is right and wrong, yet I have my (strong) opinions on the matter and I stand by them. If you find my opinions, or my attitude that offensive, you'll have to deal. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting TchHell,I prefer Donald Duck issues to watching -and analyzing- `art´ in general. ;)
Till now I was completely sure you're watching and analyzing `art´ from Playboy issues! ;D |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Quote: @Ptoing. Since you like hires, you should give the UFLI editor a go :)
I have plans for a MUFLI pic, but that will take a while as i have other unfinished business. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: Quoting TchHell,I prefer Donald Duck issues to watching -and analyzing- `art´ in general. ;)
Till now I was completely sure you're watching and analyzing `art´ from Playboy issues! ;D
Hehe,Playboy is a bit soft though.. ;)
@Helm,I am actually glad you came along. 8)
More inspiring than good old Donald (or the bunny)..
It had been a long time since doing some pixeling again.
I fell back on old ways of making gfx.
But I was already exploring different technical types and this thread has only encouraged me more.
I thank you for that! 8) |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
I am glad, Tch. I'll buy you a beer or three at the X meet :) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: I am glad, Tch. I'll buy you a beer or three at the X meet :)
Cool,just saw you registered and Ptoing aswell.
It will be most interesting to meet you!
Looking forward to that! 8D |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Quote: Cool,just saw you registered and Ptoing aswell.
It will be most interesting to meet you!
Looking forward to that! 8D
Same here Tch :D Some good gfxer talk will ensue :D |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487 |
Quote: I am glad, Tch. I'll buy you a beer or three at the X meet :)
Cheapo, the beer is for free. ;) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: Same here Tch :D Some good gfxer talk will ensue :D
Yay,counting the days! 8D
@Sander:yeps,free beers,so much the better!
A guarantee for relaxing without getting too drunk or worrying that all the booze is gone when it gets funny. |
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Helm
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 25 |
Free beer? Oh my. How will I find my way back to Greece after? |
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tempest
Registered: Jun 2005
Posts: 25 |
Hmm.. When's X again? =) |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
http://www.scs-trc.net/x2006/ |
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Wile Coyote
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 637 |
Quote: I have plans for a MUFLI pic, but that will take a while as i have other unfinished business.
Cool, can't wait to see it. Whats the theme going to be? |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Quote: Cool, can't wait to see it. Whats the theme going to be?
i have some ideas, but you will see :P Just be patient, it wont happen that soon, but prolly sometime this year or early next. |
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Wile Coyote
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 637 |
Quote: i have some ideas, but you will see :P Just be patient, it wont happen that soon, but prolly sometime this year or early next.
ok, i will wait. |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
...in answer to Sander, who wanted a reply from me: I have not yet have had the time to really think much of the matter more than what my 6 years of studies have forced me to, there are alot that come to mind but I am no "Kazan the man".
Mirage made some excellent stuff in his Recycle piece. Call it recycle or not, a copy or not but single color graphics (extended or not) looks good. It has hardly been investigated the last couple of years and Ptoing and some others have made some fine attempts.
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
no more hires? What a shame...
Let's not get oppressed by the P1/Timanthes/interlace-lobby :) |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
No more hires? Look twice! :-) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
just wanted to stirr it up a bit :) (btw, nice monkey) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
I love hires |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Me too. I realise I haven't released anything in ages, but that doesn't mean I'm not working on things (I just never finish most of it!). Almost everything I have done recently has been with hires bitmaps. |
