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Forums > C64 Pixeling > HCB - what is it and what can we do with it?
2008-10-30 10:11
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645
HCB - what is it and what can we do with it?

okay, so.. I was (and possibly others are) wondering what HCB is exactly? what are the possibilities and limitations of this new GFX mode? and where can I get an editor for it? :_)

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2008-11-02 15:10
WVL

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 885
Quote: Hah, yeah, that's a good one :) And you only have to change the lda's, so fading d800 is "cheap".


and you can buffer the 2 screens to 2 other screens.. ;)
2008-11-02 15:20
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362
Quote: There is not much of a dramatic increase in color/image quality when splitting $d800, nonetheless it is something which has not seem to have been done before. May as well just do fli per 4 lines and get an additional 2 colors per 4x4 block. and leave the $d800 twiddling. Nonetheless the restrictions have been reduced even if it does not make much of a visual difference (and smoother 4x4 defading/fading in multicolor in comparison to 4x8

Well, Rayden did a FLI-Plasma in his SCPU demo that had new $d800 in every line, but for standard c64 this is probably the first time, yes! ;-)
I still find it useless, since it uses just as much rastertime as FLI, also has the FLI-bug (which you can btw cover nicely with sprites, too, in FLI, if you want to! 8) Ever seen Xbow's FLI-Profi?) and because it essentially offers LESS colors than FLI..

Seriously: How many people have ever run out of colors in MCol FLI? How many times did you think "Damn, i wish i could have another $d800 in that char" when working in FLI? 8)

For me Mcol-FLI is pretty much arbitrary colors already, so why would I need 3 new colors every fourth line instead of 2 new colors every line? 8)
2008-11-02 17:08
Danzig

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 428
Quote: Well, Rayden did a FLI-Plasma in his SCPU demo that had new $d800 in every line, but for standard c64 this is probably the first time, yes! ;-)
I still find it useless, since it uses just as much rastertime as FLI, also has the FLI-bug (which you can btw cover nicely with sprites, too, in FLI, if you want to! 8) Ever seen Xbow's FLI-Profi?) and because it essentially offers LESS colors than FLI..

Seriously: How many people have ever run out of colors in MCol FLI? How many times did you think "Damn, i wish i could have another $d800 in that char" when working in FLI? 8)

For me Mcol-FLI is pretty much arbitrary colors already, so why would I need 3 new colors every fourth line instead of 2 new colors every line? 8)


I see the SIZE-improvment... it could get the proper new gfx-mode for intros...
2008-11-02 18:21
Copyfault

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 466
Interesting mode indeed...

I was curious if this mode would really work without any FLI-bugs. After some q'n'd tests I managed to reveal the FLI-bug on every 2nd 'half char line'. Any other behaviour would've really suprised me;)

Some notes on optimizing the viewer code: just like WVL noted it is enough to work with 8 x lda #col (long live SAX); but it is even possible to just use 7 x lda #col saving additional 2 cycles per 'half char line' (there are max. 3 cols in one char so you can always choose a 'good one' for d800).

A real advantage over normal FLI is the following flexibility: for every 2nd 'half char line' the speedcode for updating d800-colors does not necessarily need to be done in the rasterlines directly before but e.g. like this

rl---hcl---code
---------------------------------------------------------
0---00---(badline)
1---00---update d800cols for next hcl
2---00---"
3---00---"
---------------------------------------------------------
4---01---(badline)
5---01---do some fancy stuff (digis, sprite plexer,...)
6---01---"
7---01---"
---------------------------------------------------------
etc.

This not only allows for some funny things like e.g. digis or sprite plexers but also frees up rastertime considering the complete frame, because updating the d800-colors for _every_ charline in the lower border only needs the 8 x lda #col once!

I'm sure there's even more advantages 'hidden' in this mode. Thanks to HCL for making it real! Me likes it a lot!
2008-11-02 20:22
WVL

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 885
HOLD ON!

You're not updating $d800 every 4 rasterlines now, and I agree that this works.. but. After you've run the displayer once, $d800 holds different data than it did before!

So you need to write $d800 back to the way it was before you ran the displayer for the first time. timeconsuming!

Maybe you can work around it if you have 2 different displayers, but I dont think so.. since the colors you write for the 2nd 'halfline' are now used for the first 'halfline'

Anyway, I think that's a no-go! or at least you can expone the writes, but that's all. (note : this does save on rastertime, since you only need to do 8x lda to restore the _whole_ $d800 screen)


Oh wait. Now i read your message again, this was exactly what you were planning :D I'm teh dumb. And perff : can you add and BBcode?
2008-11-03 00:02
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362
copyfault: Maybe you can do some other stuff in the second half-char, but keep in mind that a HCB pic is also less colorful than an FLI pic. So for a bit more colors, is it really preferrable over standard Mcol bitmap? 8)
Keep in mind, like Graham said: 90% of all FLI pics can be converted to Mcol bitmap with no visible or just very little loss of color fidelity! ;-) I remember xbow once even did that with the Dutch Breeze FLI-gallery pics, just for shits'n'giggles, and *I* had a hard time telling the difference! 8) And you don't wanna know how much time I spent looking at these fantastic works by Hein! ;-D
I'm rather sure that JB pic in Ninja's 6-sprite FLI-routine could even be converted with ZERO loss! 8)
So, summing up: To get teh color orgasm you need a motive and a gfxian that makes full use of the colors first and foremost. Whenever I do FLI, i make sure it's worth it, check the FLI-Stretcher Crest Logo in Krestage 2 or the end-gfx in Risen from Oblivion VIC. I highly doubt these could be converted to HCB. And don't forget: There's also some mighty colorful bitmap gfx out there that look like FLI already! ;-)

And hey, did I mention that I've seen quite a few Multiplexers over full FLI and also digis (Dane himself did it long ago, and so did Jolz/Ons) already? <:-)
2008-11-03 00:06
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2804
Quote:

Maybe you can work around it if you have 2 different displayers, but I dont think so.. since the colors you write for the 2nd 'halfline' are now used for the first 'halfline'


But then you can at least toggle the start position +/- 4 scanlines each frame though, using a 2nd bitmap. Rastertime for fancy stuff again \o/
2008-11-03 00:26
algorithm

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702
FLI should only be used if necessary. an extra 7k and nearly full processor usage on a pic that can be displayed nearly as good in multicolor is not worth it at all. The opposite can ofcourse be said to the Hires equivelant (HIFLI). A great example of what can be achieved in MCol mode is in the end part of DEM (Lovely pics by mermaid)
2008-11-03 00:40
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2804
It should also be possible to update only 20 $d800 values every 4 lines instead of 40 every 8 lines, so the fancy stuff can be spread more evenly, good for digis.
2008-11-03 10:15
Style

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498
how so krill?
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