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Morpheus
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 152 |
Best program to draw C64 graphics with on a PC and on a MAC?
One of the very best artists from days gone by wants to dabble with C64 pixels again, so I'm asking on his behalf.
Cheers, Morph |
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V-12
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 206 |
Why not on C64? :) |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
timanthes is the ruler of them all, but project one is also a really great tool... thats all ya need. |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
What Celtic said.
so Morpheus, no hint as to who this artist is? ;) |
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FATFrost
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 211 |
sarge. |
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irwin
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 6 |
Quote: Why not on C64? :)
Probably because he wants simply paint - not fight with unknow GUI, specfic file load/save, very limit gfx tools (no layers) and many more. ;) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting irwinProbably because he wants simply paint - not fight with unknow GUI, specfic file load/save, very limit gfx tools (no layers) and many more. ;)
Can't speak in the name of all C64 graphicians around, but I for myself really love the vintage, limited ambience of working purely on a C64.
For me, PC software is useful only when no real C64 is around or have to get done something really quick. And even then, I tend to enjoy minimalistic interfaces like P1.
The conclusion is: don't think that an easier option is always a better option :) |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 501 |
<personal_experience>
There is an advantage for the pc tools - you cannot take the 64 with you to work and pixel some things during a boring meeting... :D
</personal_experience> |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Grafx2 is excellent if you want a DPaint clone. Recent betas have support for loading and saving koalas. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Used Gfx2 in the DOS-era and liked it a lot. Can't download shit at the moment to test it. How it is dealing with Koala limitations in painting mode? |
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v3to
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 150 |
for multicolor purists 0xpaint is also a neat tool. very simple usage, has vice and codenet support.
otherwise i second celtic, though i would not recommend p1 for tablet users (without a mousewheel zooming is pain). |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Vetootherwise i second celtic, though i would not recommend p1 for tablet users (without a mousewheel zooming is pain).
Interesting, I use P1 mostly with a tablet and that never occurred to me as a problem. Preview is always set to 200% and I never zoom in/out the main window.
Like always, seems that everything is down to the graphics artist's personal taste and/or habit. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Quoting JailbirdUsed Gfx2 in the DOS-era and liked it a lot. Can't download shit at the moment to test it. How it is dealing with Koala limitations in painting mode?
It's currently in development. You can share your thoughts on the matter in the bug tracker:
http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/issues/detail?id=202
A couple of other interesting issues in the tracker are:
http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/issues/detail?id=171 (8x8 grid)
http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/issues/detail?id=211 (C64 load/save)
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
I remember trying out the first couple of versions of the new Gfx2 but haven't followed the progress for quite a while now. All these changes sound very, very promising. As soon as I'll find an opportunity to test it, I'll share my thoughts.
Anyone else who tried to pixel in the updated versions? What do you think?
BTW, although I never liked its UI, according to others, ProMotion is also a nifty tool for pixelling C64 stuff on PC. IIRC, it's developed by the same guy who made Gunpaint, but I might be wrong here. Oh yes, and unfortunately, it's not free. |
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Morpheus
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 152 |
@Deev: I think it would put too much pressure on the man if it was out that he was pixling again. I'll forward links to the tools suggested - thank you - and we'll see what comes of it. It's not The Sarge though. :) |
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Carrion
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317 |
On grafx2 subject...
I tried it last week and it indeed has a koala and hires support. the thing is that you have to take care of the limitations yourself because the tool allows you put as many pixels in a char as you want... which make the tool no usable for me.
I hope they will add limitations checking during the pixeling because grafx2 is really great one (and works on mac ;)
timathes support for c4 modes limitations is probably the best out there. you can put anything you want but if there's more than 3 colors timathes will show you a red error color.
btw: grafx2 has nice support for checkboard dithering if you wish to use it. but timanthes on the other hand has a variety of different "dithering shades" support.
i use timanthes when photoshop is not enough. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 674 |
use GIMP with cbmplugs.
No kidding.
8x8 grid, check for clashes yourself.
I patched the cbmplugs a little so it tells you at least where it clashed during save :)
Made all/most of my HiRes with it...
See i.e. here:
http://enthusi.de/c64/tape/gimp.png
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting enthusiuse GIMP
Why do you hate us? :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11101 |
its not *that* bad :) quite OKish for simple things actually.
but i would certainly not recommend it to pixel something completely from scratch. unless you are TMR =P |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quote: Quoting irwinProbably because he wants simply paint - not fight with unknow GUI, specfic file load/save, very limit gfx tools (no layers) and many more. ;)
Can't speak in the name of all C64 graphicians around, but I for myself really love the vintage, limited ambience of working purely on a C64.
For me, PC software is useful only when no real C64 is around or have to get done something really quick. And even then, I tend to enjoy minimalistic interfaces like P1.
The conclusion is: don't think that an easier option is always a better option :)
I've not made anything in a C64 program for a few years now, though my use of PC tools for pixelling is generally pretty simplistic.
The only real advantages of using a PC that come to mind are...
- PC tools work much better with a mouse.
- I can spread my workspace over 1920x1200 pixels rather than 320x200.
- Quick save shortcuts with saves that only take a fraction of a second, no need to swap disks etc (have modern computers made me lazy? :) )
- Quick undo shortcuts (and lots of undo stages)
- Usually have various brush options which make it easy to dither large areas (which I used to HATE back in the days of setting individual pixels!)
- Fill tool, which Gunpaint/Funpaint etc never had.
...and unless I missed something really obvious that's about it! I sometimes use photoshop to build rough prototypes of ideas and layers can be handy if you want to try something without affecting the main image, but I don't think I really need anything else. Anything more would be eating into the pixelling process which (because I'm sick and twisted!), I quite enjoy! Like you, I don't even zoom in and out, I just use a fixed zoom and a preview window at 200%. |
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VoDKa
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 32 |
I still use my ELiTe PAiNt when I paint. For outlines and PC-pixelgfx I use ProMotion. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Quoting DeevI sometimes use photoshop to build rough prototypes of ideas and layers can be handy if you want to try something without affecting the main image, but I don't think I really need anything else.
Layers are *very* useful if you work in any advanced modes with sprite over/underlays.
Oh, and as of build 1046 Grafx2 has layer support:
http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/issues/detail?id=7
I'm really hoping that the color restriction in gfx2 will be able to work with the layer system, so you can set individual restrictions per layer. |
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Archmage
Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 185 |
If you want to do MC or Hires I highly recommend Project One. If you want to work in XYZHIFLI-modes I highly recommend reconsidering. Remember: real men and women do it in Koala. |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
When I do stuff I tend to use Project One. Working on a successor to CrossPainter V0.1, but things are going slow...
For Vita Spiralis I did the initial sketch in Inkscape since I use that tool professionally and know my way around it by now. I liked that way of working and any future attempts at graphics from me will probably be done in the same way. |
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Carrion
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317 |
Arch. You can't do XYZFlI in Koala AFAIK. ;)
ANyway I do use Timanthes becasue of :
- brush size as big as i wish
- patterns (dither) for brush. fill
- color replacing - if i realize that brown background is lame i "R" it with blue and if that desn't work i select all this (with select tool) and do lines PAL mode dither with brown and blue with no problem.
- i like the select tools
- i like circle, line, spline tools
- layers - and it's not only good for sprites on hires/mc modes - it's great for experimenting, prototyping, sketchin - i can change background for example every time i want with no changing the main layer (f.e. girl face ;)
- it saves fligraph format, ifli, mc, hires, and it can save runnable as well which is great for compos ;)
- i can have each layer in different c64 mode - which is great but i didn't used it yet ;) - but i will!
- most of the shortcuts are the same as for photoshop or gimp (more or less)
- multi level undo
- preview "semi" PAL mode
- gradient tool (it has to have other than pattern dither modes anyway)
- it even has filters ;)
- and finaly it allows me to do tricks like - shading, transparency - but this particular things need some sxperimenting
there's one thing i dislike abount timanthes
- it fucking doesn't run on mac - vmware to the rescue...
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Curses. Am I the only one who has a serious stability problem with Timanthes? I can't even test it properly, as it hangs up itself on both of my home computers in the weirdest possible moments (but almost always on saves, which is sometimes even topped with totally messing up the last save state). |
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Carrion
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317 |
Jail-B.
there are some rules you have to follow when exporting and flattening images.
- first one needed some experiments how to setup layers to properly export images
- second thing doesn't work at all :)
but i never had problem with saving in any of the supported formats. It works fine on XP on my thinpad as well as on VMWare on macbook pro. My first guess would be .net version problems ... but I'm not an expert on that matter thou.
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
I'm using Paint.NET v3.5.1 as an alternative to PS and it works just fine (although I am not sure on which version Timanthes was based on). So it's probably not the .NET framework causing the mess.
But it crashes not just on saves, sometimes putting down a pixel or selecting a tool makes it go nuts.
What I'm guessing is, that it might have some issues with Celerons (both of my home boxes have quite dated CPUs)? Will have to try it on a modern machine and see what's the deal. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
I've never had any problems like you're describing.
Must be multi-thread related... Do you have any crash logs? |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
I also couldn't use Timanthes, it seemed to crash every time I sneezed. Or tried to save. A bunch of crash logs were sent to Microsoft, but I don't know how you go about retrieving them.
It seemed to be particularly sensitive to layer configurations, and IIRC the default setup when you launch the program is enough to make it crash on save.
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Isildur
Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 274 |
Same as above. P1 is the best. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting MirageI've never had any problems like you're describing.
Must be multi-thread related... Do you have any crash logs?
Haven't touched it since its last crash, but I could take another look, invoke a few new crashes and send you the logs... |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
I never managed to save a koala pic in Timanthes, not a single time. It just crashes.
I got help from Mirage 4-6 times, and its something with the format or size of the pic i want to save.
Well, DOH - if i want to make koala, then let me do koala and save with no probs! :D
So i gave up. P1 seems to work. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
No offence, Jan, but the first time you tried saving a picture as koala in timanthes the resolution was 331x189 or something. The last time you tried to save an IFLI picture as a standard (fligraph) FLI picture.
Both won't work, because of obvious reasons.
I guess my point is: I can put failsaves in for those (and will) but it hasn't been a high priority thing...
Any program can be made to crash if you do seemingly normal things:
(And no, i have nothing against P1, it is perfect for what it's supposed to do) |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
I've run Timanthes on my desktop PC and through my Macbook Pro and it's extremely rare that it crashes (I'm talking 3-4 times ever during normal use). Both are Dual Core, so perhaps it is a bit more stable on newer CPUs?
Saving C64 files has sometimes been a little awkward, but usually after trying a couple of layer setups I've got it right. |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
never had problems with timanthes either... and its functionality beats p1 easily i think. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: No offence, Jan, but the first time you tried saving a picture as koala in timanthes the resolution was 331x189 or something. The last time you tried to save an IFLI picture as a standard (fligraph) FLI picture.
Both won't work, because of obvious reasons.
I guess my point is: I can put failsaves in for those (and will) but it hasn't been a high priority thing...
Any program can be made to crash if you do seemingly normal things:
(And no, i have nothing against P1, it is perfect for what it's supposed to do)
What we need Mirage, is you choose a mode, and the programs locks all to this mode, so you cant do anything wrong. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
That's what P1 does, Jan... If you need more than that you can choose to use timanthes |
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Archmage
Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 185 |
On my computer Timanthes is perfectly stable, whereas P1 often crashes during saves, causing me to perform an annoying print screen->paste in Photoshop->import in P1-operation. So it goes both ways. In response to the threads topic my personal preference is P1. But I would never argue with anyone saying that they prefer Timanthes. Both programs are good! |
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FATFrost
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 211 |
Project One has NEVER crashed for me, Timanthes ALWAYS crashes. hmpf. :( |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 674 |
Sorry for this but:
HAHA, I will never ever again accept criticism on using GIMP.
All the tool all the people use all the time keep on crashing on all occasions? wtf?
Isnt proper safety the no.1 gain over native c64 solutions? |
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Archmage
Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 185 |
Quote: Sorry for this but:
HAHA, I will never ever again accept criticism on using GIMP.
All the tool all the people use all the time keep on crashing on all occasions? wtf?
Isnt proper safety the no.1 gain over native c64 solutions?
No, the number 1 gain is the mousewheel zoom actually. :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Mirage: i just think it should have a format selector, so all those things are ok when you want to save, so you get no problems. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 443 |
Quote: Sorry for this but:
HAHA, I will never ever again accept criticism on using GIMP.
All the tool all the people use all the time keep on crashing on all occasions? wtf?
Isnt proper safety the no.1 gain over native c64 solutions?
been also playing around with GIMP these days and found a good way to pixel pics that you should be able to convert 1:1 to koala (using 2*1 pixelbrush, 8*8 grid on 320*200px pic, only 3 different colors + bg in 8*8 field). but how do I convert those correctly? I use a palette with 16 colors in the exact order as on real machine. But when I try converters like GoDot colors get replaced by others or two different colors are merged into one... did you write a converter for yourself? |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 674 |
use the plugin cbmplugs or something like that.
It allows to save in many formats. Koala included.
Also it provides a 'nice' palette already.
That save-plugin will warn you about color clashes (but not where they are ;-).
The latter can be simple fixed in the plugs-source...
There you go.
- Palette
- Layers
- Grid
- "preview" (if you disable dot-for-dot display)
- zoom on mouse-wheel |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
I doubt getting bugged warnings about non c64 conform color usage only at the save stage is very user friendly :) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 674 |
Oswald:
I save as gimp-project file usually and go for clashes in the end. When there should be none - in this pic I found 8 clashes when I thought there were none :-)
After all its pixeling with restrictions!
I sure am no artist in comparison to others but hell, I love the 2 cols per 8x8 area mode. I wouldnt want the program to bleep and nagg about me making clashes or even forbidding me what to do.
I mean thats what the grid is for ;) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
for that purpose any editor would do which can display a 8x8 grid. then, when you're done you can import your work to a tool which looks at the restrictions. :) (certainly a very bad way doing it, is to have some text messages of wrong pixel/char postions:) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 443 |
@enthusi: thanks, that works fine. :) |
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Carrion
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317 |
Just to add few cents to the discussion...
I sometimes play with photoshop when i want to test something new with NUFLI. I do the same with Timanthes and even GIMP.
My point is if I know that I'll use NUFLI converter (I know it's not public yet but it will I hope so we can discuss more) i can use anything that exports BMP 24bit with more or less acurate c64 palette. I try to follow the limitations 3 colors per 8x2 - more or less - and then later convert it and fix in Xbows editor... This approach (photoshop, timanthes, gimp, whatever) makes NUFLI experiece a bit more pleasent ;) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 443 |
okay, now i understand why gimp isn't very famous. spent the last 2,5 hours searching for reasons why my pic isn't koala-compatible... didn't find anymore color- or resolution problems for the last half hour but still ain't able to save as koala :( |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 443 |
hehe... just a minute after this post i found the last fucking pixel that was not compatible with koala-format... :) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 674 |
I know that very well....
patch the cbmplugs - NOW.
Will save you alot of time.
Very simple to find the correct spot in the source. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 443 |
@enthusi:
guess you're right that i should do this "NOW", but i spent too much time anyway on my "very basic" pixel-work though at the moment my first priority should be how to implement some predicate logic correctly in swi-prolog. :) |
