Log inRegister an accountBrowse CSDbHelp & documentationFacts & StatisticsThe forumsAvailable RSS-feeds on CSDbSupport CSDb Commodore 64 Scene Database
You are not logged in 
CSDb User Forums


Forums > C64 Composing > Comparison of C64 Music Editors by JCH
2018-02-24 12:38
Shine

Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 215
Comparison of C64 Music Editors by JCH

http://chordian.net/c64editors.htm
2018-02-24 13:04
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 761
My hat is off.
2018-02-24 14:08
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Oh good, you added it.

I'll see if I can add DMC too after I was told this is the last version from the original creator: DMC 5.0

Could be nice to add SidTracker 64 as well.
2018-02-24 14:16
F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 14
Very, very nice and informative.

However, still much info missing (e.g. defMON being able to do PRGs. It's also possible to trigger each function from Column: Command as SP1/SP2). I'm pretty sure Frantic will come up with proper feature list.
2018-02-24 14:19
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1339
Great list! Some corrections/additions regarding defMON though:

It also has MIDI sync and Gameboy sync, in addition to the DIN-sync. (This is all sync signals going out from the C64, so the C64 can't be used as a slave.)

Sequences are 32 steps long by default, but can also be shorter.

Not sure what gating refers to, but if it refers to turning gate on/off from the sequence (e.g. the +++ thing in JCH ed) all you have to do is to write 00 or 01 in one of the two sidtab pointer columns in the sequence to do this. (That is, you can do this if you have rows 00 and 01 in the sidtab configured as setting precisely gate off and on respectively, which I always tend to have. sidtab row 00 is configured like this per default, e.g. to set gate off).

It is correct that there is no command to transpose a whole sequence differently each time you use it the way you can do in the JCH editor. (You can easily copy a sequence to a new one and transpose the notes in it though.)

You can however repeat segments of the sequence list, so it is wrongly stated that there is no repeat command.

You can make subtunes if you can fit it into the same sequence list. Just load the A-register with the song position you want to start playing from when you call the init routine.

It is true that there is no official relocator. I am able to relocate tunes on my computer though, with a little script on my mac that turns the tune into source code and then I can assemble it to other addresses, so if someone needs it really badly, it may be possible. This doesn't count, I know.

Zero page usage is incorrect: defMON uses $96,$fb,$fc

defMON can export both plain binary tunes and executable prg files.

By the way.. the JCH editor was the first one I learned on the C64 and used for a while. Great one! Then there were some things I wanted to do, but couldn't do in the JCH editor, so that's why I coded defMON. :)
2018-02-24 14:50
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Thanks, for the update. I've now updated the table accordingly.

Yep, gating only refers to whether the editor can specifically use a command such as +++ to gate on. I added a note about it being controlled by SP for defMON, though.

How many times can a sequence be repeated?

Is there a maximum number of sub tunes? (Otherwise I'll just leave the cell at "Yes".)
2018-02-24 14:54
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1339
Quote: Thanks, for the update. I've now updated the table accordingly.

Yep, gating only refers to whether the editor can specifically use a command such as +++ to gate on. I added a note about it being controlled by SP for defMON, though.

How many times can a sequence be repeated?

Is there a maximum number of sub tunes? (Otherwise I'll just leave the cell at "Yes".)


A sequence (and actually whole segments of the sequence list) can be repeated 256 times.

You can have as many subtunes as you can fit into a single sequence list with 256 steps. So if each tune is only one sequence long (uhm.. :) ), that would be 128 subtunes, since one extra step is consumed by the command that loops back somewhere.

I added a link to your comparison page in the defMON wiki. I think it is a useful resource, so thanks for doing it.
2018-02-24 15:06
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
256 times? Leaves the competitors in the dust.

Regarding sub tunes, I'll... uh... just leave it at "Yes" then.

Link away wherever you want, I believe in sharing information on the internet. It was fun to make it. Part of the reason was that I really wanted something like this myself when I had to decide what editor to use after not having made SID for decades.
2018-02-24 15:10
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1339
...and yes.. Of course you can control the speed of your tunes in defMON, and have different speeds in different parts of the song (even in different steps in different channels). It just works a bit differently, e.g. it is not a "command" in that sense.
2018-02-24 15:22
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Quote: ...and yes.. Of course you can control the speed of your tunes in defMON, and have different speeds in different parts of the song (even in different steps in different channels). It just works a bit differently, e.g. it is not a "command" in that sense.

That's actually already sort of in there. If you look under "Column:" this and that, you can see there's a "Spd X" among the example characters.

However, I now also added a value to the "Column: Command" section to clear matters. =)
2018-02-24 15:25
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
I also added a similar value to NinjaTracker (it has a duration column).
2018-02-24 18:43
cadaver

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1062
Excellent work!
2018-02-24 19:57
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 822
Defending my turf a bit:
Legato/Tie: yes
Subtunes: 15
Export to: PRG (What else? :)
And the source code can be assembled with a couple of variable settings to reduce player size and rastertime usage.

Good list, JCH.
2018-02-24 20:10
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 353
Just wanted to chime in and say great work, JCH!

I put my suggestions in a comment on your blog post, but it's pending moderation.
2018-02-24 23:31
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Thanks, guys.

@Hein: Yes, but tie note is still in the command column, right? Hmmm, maybe I should have put that legato / tie note row somewhere more global in the list. It seems to confuse a bit where it is now for the note column. I've had several comments on it by now.

I've added your other stuff now. The one about assembler source I added in "Noteworthy" + "(vanilla)" appended to the row about rastertime. Let me know if it needs more tweaking.

@Lft: Thanks, I approved it, added your changes and wrote a comment follow-up.
2018-02-25 01:33
GH/MSL/Toondichters

Registered: Sep 2014
Posts: 66
@JCH: Very refreshing :D
2018-02-25 06:10
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 822
@JCH, from that point of view, you're right. It doesn't interfere with using other commands tho. The red X just looked a bit as if the functionality isn't there.
2018-02-25 09:49
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Quote: @JCH, from that point of view, you're right. It doesn't interfere with using other commands tho. The red X just looked a bit as if the functionality isn't there.

You've got a point. I've now removed the red crosses.
2018-02-26 22:11
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8545
very nice info!

out of curiosity... it would be fun to see soundmonitor/ future composer/ music assembler in that table :)
2018-02-27 00:27
Compyx

Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 334
Something is wrong with the layout in Firefox: the table layout starting at "Wave table" skewers: The first "cell" is one row shorter than the cells of the next columns.

See https://www.dropbox.com/s/d70gwn60hdwap99/jch-table.png?dl=0

That's the latest Firefox (on Debian). In Chromium the table looks fine.
2018-02-27 07:08
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Looks like a line too long. I shortened the longest one of them.

Damn, I'm glad I'm not doing web design for a living! =P



I've added an Unsticky Table button now. Hope it helps.
2018-02-28 14:39
Compyx

Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 334
Works fine now, thanks :)
2018-02-28 20:48
Scarzix

Registered: Aug 2010
Posts: 138
Not that it differs that much, but there is a stereo/dual SID version of Cheesecutter too.
2018-02-28 21:11
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Quote: Not that it differs that much, but there is a stereo/dual SID version of Cheesecutter too.

What about it? It's noted both in the row about number of SID chips as well as in the row about channels visible. =)
2018-03-01 10:07
Linus

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 597
Nice work, JCH! :)

Regarding "Auxiliary support" for Goattracker - the Mac version supports MIDI in.
2018-03-01 11:24
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
It does? Why only the Mac version?

I'll add the tidbit.
2018-03-02 13:51
Mr. SID

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 348
Just because I wanted to... It's not exactly something that you can easily implement in a platform independent way.
2018-03-02 14:29
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Fair enough.

By the way, I've added capability rows in the section for the player (arpeggiator, pulsating, filtering and vibrato).
2018-03-02 19:32
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8545
Mr.SID: doesnt SDL2 have midi stuff now?
2018-03-04 15:26
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
DefleMask has been added.
2018-03-05 09:02
Mr. SID

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 348
@Groepaz: I have no idea, I haven't looked at it in years...
2018-03-05 16:01
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8545
looks like i remembered that wrong, it still cant do midi... oh well :)
2018-03-08 12:54
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Regarding NTSC support, I thought it would be enough if I can run an editor 60 times a second in addition to 50 and then Bob's your uncle.

But reading the defMON wiki, I can see that a different frequency table is also needed to have true NTSC support? Is this always true? If so, it would make it harder to determine whether an editor truly supports NTSC.
2018-03-08 17:31
Mr. SID

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 348
Yes, NTSC needs a different frequency table.
But it doesn't matter all that much, a lot of tunes use the wrong frequency table, either because the tables in the C64 manual were wrong (US manual was translated to various languages and the table was not adjusted) or because they took them from the wrong source, e.g. the SID datasheet, which was based on an exact 1MHz clock.

Detuned SID music is very common and purely exists to annoy Reyn and other people with perfect pitch hearing. :)
2018-03-08 19:43
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1339
http://unusedino.de/ec64/technical/aay/c64/sidmth.htm
2018-03-08 21:12
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Quote: Yes, NTSC needs a different frequency table.
But it doesn't matter all that much, a lot of tunes use the wrong frequency table, either because the tables in the C64 manual were wrong (US manual was translated to various languages and the table was not adjusted) or because they took them from the wrong source, e.g. the SID datasheet, which was based on an exact 1MHz clock.

Detuned SID music is very common and purely exists to annoy Reyn and other people with perfect pitch hearing. :)


LOL!

OK, thanks for clearing that up.
2018-03-08 21:38
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 2511
DMC5.0 subtunes. Try with (shift m) if I remember right. There should be tunes 1 to 0 (on numeric keyyboard). That should be 10 subtunes.
2018-03-09 09:08
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
That's spooky. Thanks, I'll add it.
2018-03-11 18:24
GH/MSL/Toondichters

Registered: Sep 2014
Posts: 66
Nice to see everything is so well categorized. Splendid job and much appreciated :D

Will there be a comparison of the different Filter tables and possibilities each editor as well?
While I know JCH, Virtuose and Goat by now, DMC still confuses me or Let's just say it's
abracadabra :D And it seems i'm not the only one...

What about 1 example made in JCH that is shown for every other editor with the (almost) the same outcome ?
2018-03-11 21:01
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Thanks, well, the table already goes into meticulous detail and going into even more detail would move it into documentation country. I have to draw the line somewhere.
2018-03-11 22:33
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 2511
Sorry for wrong info. Just got my hands on DMC today. It's 0-7 (8 subtunes)
2018-03-12 06:54
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Updated.
2018-03-12 23:14
6R6

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 226
SDI detects pal/ntsc system and changes the multispeed raster tables according to that. To use pal or ntsc note table frequencies is an optional selection on startup.
2018-03-13 09:09
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 50
Quote: SDI detects pal/ntsc system and changes the multispeed raster tables according to that. To use pal or ntsc note table frequencies is an optional selection on startup.

Nice. The field already stated PAL + NTSC, but I've now added that it autodetects the latter.

EDIT: Sod it, changed it to read "frequency table" instead of "autodetects".
2018-03-15 20:41
GH/MSL/Toondichters

Registered: Sep 2014
Posts: 66
Oh yeah it's diligent alright but sometimes it just might be easier to have an (raw) example to compare, at least that's me...

Hoping for another "No More Secrets" by Groepaz :D
RefreshSubscribe to this thread:

You need to be logged in to post in the forum.

Search the forum:
Search   for   in  
All times are CET.
Search CSDb
Advanced
Users Online
The Alien
Menace/Spaceballs
/Panor..
bugjam
grass/LETHARGY
Sparta/OMG
Parody/Hoaxers
Matt
Steppe
FATFrost/Monk/Angels
THE TEA DRIN../TEA B..
Guests online: 30
Top Demos
1 Uncensored  (9.7)
2 Comaland 100%  (9.7)
3 Edge of Disgrace  (9.7)
4 Coma Light 13  (9.6)
5 The Shores of Reflec..  (9.6)
6 Wonderland XII  (9.6)
7 We Come in Peace  (9.6)
8 Lunatico  (9.6)
9 Incoherent Nightmare  (9.5)
10 Wonderland XIII  (9.5)
Top onefile Demos
1 FMX Music Demo  (9.5)
2 Pandemoniac Part 2 o..  (9.5)
3 Daah, Those Acid Pil..  (9.5)
4 Dawnfall V1.1  (9.5)
5 Treu Love [reu]  (9.5)
6 In Memoriam BHF  (9.5)
7 Merry Xmas 2017  (9.4)
8 Dawnfall  (9.4)
9 SWiRL  (9.4)
10 Synthesis  (9.4)
Top Groups
1 Oxyron  (9.4)
2 Booze Design  (9.4)
3 Censor Design  (9.4)
4 Finnish Gold  (9.4)
5 Crest  (9.3)
Top Logo Graphicians
1 Pal  (9.5)
2 Jailbird  (9.3)
3 Yazoo  (9.3)
4 Elko  (9.2)
5 Mermaid  (9.2)

Home - Disclaimer
Copyright © No Name 2001-2018
Page generated in: 0.09 sec.