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Forums > C64 Composing > Using multi-density routines to split one or two sid voices into more....
2019-09-27 15:04
vV

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 6
Using multi-density routines to split one or two sid voices into more....

I have been tinkering with this thought for quite a decade now and then and i have been out of this so very long.

I know you can build fantastic sid instruments with multiple density routines, but what if we use this technique to divide wave generation accross splitted tracks?
Some instruments like leads and massive bass designs do not lend themselves for this kind of technique, but you could frankly cram one percussion and one arpeggio track into one sid voice this way, leaving you one other dedicated voice for something else.

I'm sure it sounds shit if you start with double density interrupts, but when raising to four or more, the audio artifacts resulting from it might not be or be less noticable, or create their own unique distinctive audio signature that it is enjoyable...

I roughly checked different sid editors that are emulation based and see what techniques and features they contain, but i could not find an editor with any remote description of such idea....
Is there a sid-player that actually supplies such technique and if not, who would be the person motivated to tinker with the actually attempt to test this out?
 
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2019-09-28 19:44
Claus_2015

Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 34
Not sure if I get the idea right, but toggling quickly between really different sounds will always sound like shit. For slower switching speed you will get an arpeggio sound, while towards higher switching speed you will probably get strange robotic noises with the switching frequency.
2019-09-28 19:49
vV

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 6
Quote: ADSR is too inflexible it can be only done with instruments that are only either on or off.

Yes, i suspected sort of, else i would have expected someone would have coded a HiRes sid composing editor.
2019-09-28 19:50
vV

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 6
Quote: Quoting vV
multiple density routines

Quote:
double density interrupts

eh?


Double density, but triple and quadripple density were also applied, hence "multiple density" interrupts.
2019-09-28 21:54
spider-j

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 194
If I get the idea right this idea can easily be "simulated" with a standard 2x playroutine. Just take two 1x instruments with the same ADSR, double all values and then mix them together only one value from each. You will end up with what Claus said: one new instrument and not a mix of two.

Mixing percussion and drums with other instruments is already done by just placing them "up-front" or if you wanna get fancy you can even place them in between long slow arpeggios if you properly sync your wave table to the song speed. You can even not touch wavetables at all and make any instrument at some places a percussion-like instrument by quickly switching filters for a couple of frames. The list goes on ...

All of that is already done by almost every SID musician in the 21st century ;-)
2019-10-02 09:13
vV

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 6
Quote: If I get the idea right this idea can easily be "simulated" with a standard 2x playroutine. Just take two 1x instruments with the same ADSR, double all values and then mix them together only one value from each. You will end up with what Claus said: one new instrument and not a mix of two.

Mixing percussion and drums with other instruments is already done by just placing them "up-front" or if you wanna get fancy you can even place them in between long slow arpeggios if you properly sync your wave table to the song speed. You can even not touch wavetables at all and make any instrument at some places a percussion-like instrument by quickly switching filters for a couple of frames. The list goes on ...

All of that is already done by almost every SID musician in the 21st century ;-)


No not standard 2x, if you have to divide your ADSR processing, you need at least 4x as you have to process each stage value in one interrupt with the other stages zeroed...
2x will for sure sound like shit.

I have done my fair mixing of percussion with bass waves or arpeggios, but if creating combined instruments is what it takes, then any current editor shall suffice, even with just 1x interrupt. With more, you can just whip up more fancy combinations.
2019-10-02 09:35
Mixer

Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 315
The often used bassdr+bass is tricking the ear, but changing waveform rapidly on one voice will not mix anything. The selected waveform is just replaced with another. If the oscillator is reset, then the piece is from the beginning, if not, then the piece is from whatever the phase of the osc happens to be in.

There will be the carrier frequency present in some form or another, if x==50 hz, then 4x will mean 200hz update rate. 16x is 1600hz etc. This sets the carrier sound frequency, and also limits the frequency accuracy of notes which one can play.

The ADSR can be controlled at will, but one must keep the ADSR at A or R, rising or falling. Controlling the A or R rate continuously allows ADSR to be manipulated to any level, but max useful update rate is about 600hz.(12x)

Also, eventually the memory will be a problem. High update rates mean large wavetables etc.

I think 48x updated tunes have been made.

I wonder if anyone has played with waveform 0 in multispeed wavetables.
2019-10-02 10:11
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 849
Quoting Mixer
I wonder if anyone has played with waveform 0 in multispeed wavetables.


I used testbit in multispeed wavetable to introduce low carrier whereas pitch becomes modulation/formant. Base pitch becomes hence strictly dependend on multispeed ratio and intervals between 'gaps'. Check out my triangle only tunes and not only :) Linus used it as well howeveer most probably with PWM manipulation instead. Anything comes handy to introduce that break in sound.
2019-10-02 14:39
TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 624
Lookee here for examples of 12x and 16x
Highest times-x speed of SID tunes?
2019-10-18 08:37
vV

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 6
Quoting Jammer
Quoting Mixer
I wonder if anyone has played with waveform 0 in multispeed wavetables.


I used testbit in multispeed wavetable to introduce low carrier whereas pitch becomes modulation/formant. Base pitch becomes hence strictly dependend on multispeed ratio and intervals between 'gaps'. Check out my triangle only tunes and not only :) Linus used it as well howeveer most probably with PWM manipulation instead. Anything comes handy to introduce that break in sound.


Yes testbit/ring modulation also allows for some ternary voice effect but still requires two voices. But will check some of your examples.
2019-10-18 23:49
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 849
Quoting vV
Yes testbit/ring modulation also allows for some ternary voice effect but still requires two voices. But will check some of your examples.


I meant modulation caused by testbit at greater speeds. It requires only one channel ;)
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