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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Which 6581 revision...
Hi!
Which -> 6581 <- revision sounds best? Which one has the best sounding filters?
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
6582 is replacement for 6581 , it's actually very 8580 alike (anyway if I remember right , it uses different caps , so 6582 may should have even different filter characteristics)
there is probably no 6582 in Poland however ;-)
I suppose 6581r4ar was introduced when c128 came out... it generally looks that c64 was imporoved (I mean the BN/E board) after C128D cost reduced came out circa 1987 (hence the 8580 and 5v only vic-II IMO) |
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Sidder
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 56 |
Quoting Yodelking
I have 6582, 6581 R1 or R2 (those revision are unmarked afaik), R3, R4, and 8580 R5.
Hmmm... Maybe you should seriosly think about preparing comparison test for all these five chips? :)
1. Create sid-tune with all "debatable" elements (mixed waves, filters and even samples) included.
2. Play it on each SID chip type.
3. Record it and put result mp3 files into web.
(like done at www.sid.kubarth.com: http://sid.kubarth.com/files/sid_draxish_6581.mp3 and http://sid.kubarth.com/files/sid_draxish_8580.mp3 )
Such comparison would probably stop a lot of unproductive convesations. :] |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Does someone could record some mp3s/oggs from different 6581 revisions? (8580 is not necasary)
A short filter slide from $00 to $FF should be enough. It would be interesting to hear how it sounds on different 658x rev.
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Does someone could record some mp3s/oggs from different 6581 revisions? (8580 is not necasary)
A short filter slide from $00 to $FF should be enough. It would be interesting to hear how it sounds on different 658x rev.
Actually, I quite often use $61 waveform for drums. It gives it quite a hard touch.
Depends on what is required even $31 (good for techno-electro sounds), $51, or $71 is used by me. So, it is everything but NOT USELESS!! :)
exemple:
09 00
61 AA
11 AA
11 A5
10 A0
10 98
10 92
10 81
FF 00
@JEFF
jeff wrote : "I just hate the stupid cut-off curves in 8580... makes no sense at all."
hmm, what exactly you mean with "stupid cutt-off" and "makes no sense at all"???????
I can remember, that my first 8580 tunes had very ugly (weak) filter settings.
There are tons of such tunes in HVSC that are afflicted by weakness, but that is a problem of the player & editor.
If you have a 6581 SID you can have the worst player and the filtered bass will always sound good. (since the cutoff is non linear)
To get a "warm" sound with the 8580 you just have to re-programm filters frame by frame... (however, it's only possible with more advanced players)
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
lo,
Quote:it is everything but NOT USELESS!!
Hehe, indeed ... :P
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VIC
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 73 |
Quote: Actually, I quite often use $61 waveform for drums. It gives it quite a hard touch.
Depends on what is required even $31 (good for techno-electro sounds), $51, or $71 is used by me. So, it is everything but NOT USELESS!! :)
exemple:
09 00
61 AA
11 AA
11 A5
10 A0
10 98
10 92
10 81
FF 00
@JEFF
jeff wrote : "I just hate the stupid cut-off curves in 8580... makes no sense at all."
hmm, what exactly you mean with "stupid cutt-off" and "makes no sense at all"???????
I can remember, that my first 8580 tunes had very ugly (weak) filter settings.
There are tons of such tunes in HVSC that are afflicted by weakness, but that is a problem of the player & editor.
If you have a 6581 SID you can have the worst player and the filtered bass will always sound good. (since the cutoff is non linear)
To get a "warm" sound with the 8580 you just have to re-programm filters frame by frame... (however, it's only possible with more advanced players)
@Nata>>It's just because of Jeffs poor coding skills and lacking understanding of SID - nevermind him ;) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
09 00
61 AA
11 AA
11 A5
10 A0
10 98
10 92
10 81
FF 00
still wondering what those freq values are?
actual highfreq values? or notetable-freqs which you have to
subtract $80 from ?
About the stupid filter curves of 8580.. again... $00-$80 or so seems to do something, but are like $00-$FF on 6581... and after $80 (on 8580) nothing amazing seems to happen(or?) So why was it done like this?
also:
>I can remember, that my first 8580 tunes had very ugly >(weak) filter settings.
>There are tons of such tunes in HVSC that are afflicted by >weakness, but that is a problem of the player & editor.
Sounds more like a problem of the composer to me.
Some tunes here, recorded from a 6581r4...
http://www.6581.dk/files/6581r4/
6581r4 seems to work just fine for those "new techno synth sound" etc...
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
@jeff!
These values are "highfreq values" or "locked values" - whatever you wish. :)
09 00
61 AA ; f#-3
11 AA
11 A5
10 A0
10 98
10 92 ; f#-1
10 81 ; c#-0
FF 00
Well, I will respect your opinion about the 8580 SID and its "stupid filter curves". :)
But I have my doubts, that your example songs will sound as good on other SID revisions, right?
jeff wrote: "About the stupid filter curves of 8580.. again... $00-$80 or so seems to do something, but are like $00-$FF on 6581... and after $80 (on 8580) nothing amazing seems to happen(or?) So why was it done like this?"
Depends, what do you expect from a filter?
Btw. If you use a 8580, then value '$00' does nothing (audible). Ok, maybe there is just a minimal filter output, but usually not useful for composing ...
------
Ok, everyone can try out the following example (8580 SID):
Bass example:
Wave:
09 00
81 c4 ; g#-5
41 00 ; not locked
FF 00
Pulse:
Start value: $200
+ speed $10
- speed $10
Filter:
Low-pass + resonance $F
80 ; cut-off $80, frame 01 (noise)will be filtered
40 ; cut-off $40, frame 02 (pulse)
1A
0A
05 ; cut-off $05, frame 05
FF
---
Btw, it would be really interesting to HEAR a 6582.
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
@Nata:
Well I do respect people prefering 8580 instead of 6581.
(Just so you know) ;-)
I guess my main reason for not liking 8580 as much, is that I don't understand why they have to change it so much. If they atleast had kept the filters more alike, so that the cutoffs sound more or less the same on both chips, then I would have been more happy about it ;-)
It makes it harder for a musician to make filters that sound good on both chips... for instance vocoder-like sounds, which are often very dependant on the filtercutoff, it's hard to get
those to sound good on both chips... Atleast I have some worktune with a quite deep vocoder-like sound, that "says" :
"Viruz"... it's done on 6581r4 and even by chancing the cutoff just +/- 1 it doesn't sound as it should.
:-) |
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V-12
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 206 |
Quote: Quoting Murdock
SIDDER: fuck you!
Jestes zerem...
Quoting Murdock
stick up into your emulator
... i hipokryta.
It's funny that Murdock is always so "brave" only in virtal reallity. When I wanted to talk with him at North Party in 2004, I heard only silent whisper "sorry" and saw Murdock runnig away into next room.
Quoting Murdock
Alot of composers used others tunes to compose their own
Yes, but not for 8 years, "baybe"...
Quoting Murdock
you are not into real scene
It's just your imagination, your imagination, your imagination...
Quoting Murdock
No need to explain why the remix of Touldie's song got released.
'cause there's no rational explanation to release such crap "tune".
Quoting Laxity
Someone must have had a brainfart when they desided to update the 64!
Especially this silent samples in 8580... Samples-playing technique was - if I'm right - known when Commodore started producing new SID.
Quoting Randall
I guess not many of us have enough experience to tell the differences between 6581 revisions
But emulation is good enough to see main differences beteen new and old SID. And it's enough to tell old SID has too hard filter (for me) and doesn't support $5/$6/$3 waves.
Quoting Jeff
waves $50 and $60 works just fine on my 6581r4.... but those waves are quite boring...
No, why? :) They are boring same as other waves. IMHO people doesn't use mixed waves also because of old SID - where $5 sounds like taken directly from "Texas Chainsaw Massacre"...
Main topic: Asking about what thing is the best is always problematic. Because we all are different and prefer different things. I got accustomed to 8580, because I had it first. But for sure good composer can do everything, no matter which sid-chip is placed inside his Commy.
Offtopic to explain some things to one stranger:
Quoting Sidder
Jestes zerem...
You think that? Really? Why don't you write it in english?
Quoting Sidder
It's funny that Murdock is always so "brave" only in virtal reallity. When I wanted to talk with him at North Party in 2004, I heard only silent whisper "sorry" and saw Murdock runnig away into next room.
Yea it's funny! How can I talk with you when you are not treating me serious? And what about did you wanted to talk with me? Come on, be brave and send me a PM about your problems. Would be nice to receive a normal message instead of gay message from your friend and groupmate or that extremely stupid fake discmags and low-level articles about stories which never happened.
Quoting Murdock
No need to explain why the remix of Touldie's song got released.
Quoting Sidder
'cause there's no rational explanation to release such crap "tune".
So why there was the reason to release for example /VARIOUS/S-Z/Sanden_Peter/BMX_Kidz_Remix_PSID.sid tune and many more tunes? Plenty of covers, plenty of tunes with borrowed instrumets...but of course you don't know about that or simply you are ignoring alot of facts. I know atleast 1 composer who did his all tunes with using someone's Instruments...Why don't you bug those other people, who released other stuff with borrowed instruments? But well... I'm tired about explaining it, simply back off from me. I don't like you and your attitude and behaviour.
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