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Fredrik
Registered: Apr 2009
Posts: 204 |
Vice or CCS64
Witch of them two programs do you use, if you want to play demos on you pc?
I have tried them both and the sound is more accurate in Vice than in CCS64.
Do you think the same?
Do Vice have another "sidgenerator" that the CCS64?
(And of couse, the real 64 is the best way to look at demos)
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quote:Witch of them two programs do you use, if you want to play demos on you pc? neither
Quote:Do Vice have another "sidgenerator" that the CCS64? yes it does. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
or HoXS64 (http://www.hoxs64.net/) |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
I use VICE. CCS64 is really lacking these days. |
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Inge
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 144 |
I mainly use CCS64, because I can't work without the built-in monitor. |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quote: I mainly use CCS64, because I can't work without the built-in monitor.
the op asked about an emu to watch demos as far as i understood. |
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LOGAN
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 71 |
Hmm I see CCS64 has a new version (first in 7 years I think). Besides VICE is free and open source, it seems also be more on par with current releases. I have to admit the last time I tried CCS64 I didn't even have windows :D |
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QuasaR
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 145 |
me uses Vice since it's the only emu working under Linux...
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11100 |
both ccs64 and hoxs64 work just fine in wine :) |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
Quote: Hmm I see CCS64 has a new version (first in 7 years I think). Besides VICE is free and open source, it seems also be more on par with current releases. I have to admit the last time I tried CCS64 I didn't even have windows :D
CCS64 is being updated at least once every year. I don't use it many times, like hoxs64 just to test if something is not working in Vice, there are too many features in vice misssing in other emulators to make me stop using it, and the monitor only misses a full screen editor, else is far more complete and precise than the one CCS, break/watch points in CCS just suck imho. |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 490 |
Quote: I mainly use CCS64, because I can't work without the built-in monitor.
Vice has a built-in monitor as well of course. What do you mean by that?
My vote goes to Vice. But I respect CCS64 and HoXS64 as well.
There also other emulators like Frodo which is suitable for weak console platforms.
Don't forget nocash (no$c64) emulator/debugger. It has a very basic emulation module but an advanced debugger.
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
I actually use both. I use VICE for timing fixes due to the timing seems alot more accurate then ccs64. Which is close to the end product.
I use CCS64 during the project because the monitor is basically the same monitor I used on the real c64 back in the day and I am comfortable with that.
Unlike the one in vice which I think sucks because to many key strokes to view stuff. I can tell the person who wrote that monitor came over from the PC (debug) because the monitor works and looks closely alike.
But they both have their strengths and weaknesses but in the end I think it boils down to how you programmed on c64 and what tools you used.
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Inge
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 144 |
Quote: Vice has a built-in monitor as well of course. What do you mean by that?
My vote goes to Vice. But I respect CCS64 and HoXS64 as well.
There also other emulators like Frodo which is suitable for weak console platforms.
Don't forget nocash (no$c64) emulator/debugger. It has a very basic emulation module but an advanced debugger.
The monitor in Vice sucks, that's the problem. But that doesn't mean I don't use Vice at all. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1987 |
The monitor in VICE works fine, better than most, except for a few bugs. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: The monitor in Vice sucks, that's the problem. But that doesn't mean I don't use Vice at all.
Well, that's what I thought a few months ago too.
But after debugging some stuff (soon available in your local C64 warez store ;) I found out that the Vice monitor is quite powerful.
I mean, breakpoints, backtracing... we should have those tools years ago :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: Well, that's what I thought a few months ago too.
But after debugging some stuff (soon available in your local C64 warez store ;) I found out that the Vice monitor is quite powerful.
I mean, breakpoints, backtracing... we should have those tools years ago :)
We had, since 1993: A64 emulator on Amiga |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 490 |
I'm comfortable with both monitors (standart C64 and Vice). But Vice's monitor is more powerful. It's great for debugging like Scout said and also very nice to work between a d64 image and other medias (like hdd, cd, dvd etc.).
Here goes the *best* feature for me. You can debug 1541 (or other) drives using Vice's monitor! Which is impossible (afaik) on the real thing and I'm not sure if other emulators allow this. So, you can debug everything including drive code using Vice. Setting a breakpoint on the drive code was a dream 10+ years ago.
If you say "we never needed this before, we are happy with the old monitors" that's fine. There is nothing wrong with that. We all code for our pleasure. :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
the thing is that AR style monitor is more friendly than Vice's command line based one. It's more comfortable just to go with the cursor over the commands / bytes / text and simply overwrite them + return, than having to type in stupid commands to do that. the debug features are nice, but still the interface to change bytes/codes is less userfriendly than AR. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote:but still the interface to change bytes/codes is less userfriendly than AR
True dat.
To be honest, that's the only thing I really miss in ViceMon. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
add the more userfriendly command parser of AR too. fex. VICE wont let you type stuff like "T100020003000"... I bloody hate I cant write that. AR was so clever, spared you any unnecessary typing. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: add the more userfriendly command parser of AR too. fex. VICE wont let you type stuff like "T100020003000"... I bloody hate I cant write that. AR was so clever, spared you any unnecessary typing.
Yep.
And it's case/space sensitive too: for instance, D1000 and d1000 won't work. Only d 1000 works.
Very irritating.
But besides those tiny annoyances, ViceMon is still a very powerful tool. |
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LOGAN
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 71 |
About the monitor in Vice... I find it a bit sluggish while typing, as if the editor is a bit slow. I often type d 1000 1020 while it needs d $1000 $1020 and also I miss the feature that I used to have on my c64 cart where I just could use cursor up/down to continue scrolling through the source beyond the range I initially typed. But especially combined with the sluggish text response makes 'wandering' through the memory a bit more hassle than it used to be.
But thats when I'm coding, and normal demo watching Vice will do in 99% of the cases. |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 490 |
@LOGAN: Which version are you talking about? I don't remember any Vice version which require "$" as a prefix. Using "$" is optional.
d 1000 1020
d $1000 $1020
both behaves the same. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: Yep.
And it's case/space sensitive too: for instance, D1000 and d1000 won't work. Only d 1000 works.
Very irritating.
But besides those tiny annoyances, ViceMon is still a very powerful tool.
those "tiny" annoyances keeps me having an AR .crt attached. the extra features doesnt balance it for me. breakpoints were buggy the last time I checked, and whats with the cursor sometimes disappearing? or the > 1000 40.. or is it > 40 1000 ? annoying syntax. much better on AR listing the mem freely wandering with the cursor and changing values, and we havent talked yet about changing the code. everything is very unfriendly and frustrating about vicemon for me. |
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
Quote: those "tiny" annoyances keeps me having an AR .crt attached. the extra features doesnt balance it for me. breakpoints were buggy the last time I checked, and whats with the cursor sometimes disappearing? or the > 1000 40.. or is it > 40 1000 ? annoying syntax. much better on AR listing the mem freely wandering with the cursor and changing values, and we havent talked yet about changing the code. everything is very unfriendly and frustrating about vicemon for me.
Ah see this is the main reason I could never use VICE completely also. If your use to doing something for some many years a certain way and then to change, but the change is more annoying then actually speeding up things, I don't call that a positive change.
Coding alone is annoying, especially if your running into issues. And having a monitor that is annoying on top of that is just a road to snapping.
I wouldn't say the monitor is complete trash, its just not as free as I would/like it to be. That was the major turn off for me with Vice.
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1987 |
Quote: Ah see this is the main reason I could never use VICE completely also. If your use to doing something for some many years a certain way and then to change, but the change is more annoying then actually speeding up things, I don't call that a positive change.
Coding alone is annoying, especially if your running into issues. And having a monitor that is annoying on top of that is just a road to snapping.
I wouldn't say the monitor is complete trash, its just not as free as I would/like it to be. That was the major turn off for me with Vice.
I found a memory-rule for that >-command. :D It's like BASIC's POKE. :) I.e. address first then value. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
It's the same format as the output from the m command:
(C:$04a0) m 0400 0427
>C:0400 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
>C:0410 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
>C:0420 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
(C:$0428) >C:0400 01 02 03
(C:$0428) m 0400 0427
>C:0400 01 02 03 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
>C:0410 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
>C:0420 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
(C:$0428)
C: is of course optional (8: for drive 8, etc).
Seriously, isn't it somewhat unrealistic to expect a full screen editor in a modern GUI application? If you absogoddamnlutely can't re-learn to use a simple commandline, just attach the AR6 monitor.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
seriously isnt it horrible to have a commandline interface in a modern gui application, when it was done much better decades earlier on a ten-thousand slower machine? would you like to edit text using a commandline interface? why coders should do that with memory then ? and the thing is not that I cant learn it, the thing is it is inefficient/frustrating/nonfriendly. You cant be serious it's easier to list memory then check for what adress you want to change, then enter > adress value valu value oh dont forget to put in carfully the spaces too! than to list memory move cursor over and change values.
and if it's the same as the memory listing, how hard it would be to let the cursor freely wander around, and parse the line where enter was pressed ? (just like AR does) |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
Nowadays you only really use the monitor for debugging, and that is something the VICE monitor is way better at than any native monitor can ever be. However, I absolutely agree that it is rather rigid and cumbersome to use compared to the AR or TFC monitor; a patch to make it behave (and look?) like a real C64 monitor would be awesome. I like the convenience features though, like being able to load files directly from the native file system into C64 RAM. |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 490 |
Back to the topic. It's obvious that many people choose Vice because Vice's emulation is more reliable. This doesn't mean Vice is perfect or other emulators suck.
Wait a minute! Remember! Emulators suck! Thank you for using a real c64 ;) |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quoting SkateIt's obvious that many people choose Vice because Vice's emulation is more reliable. its a common misconception and atleast the emulation of the Pal C64 is more reliable in Hoxs. if people choose Vice its because it has a longer list of supported hardware(like more sid revisions),is fairly reliable(more than CCS) and offers more eye candies. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
As rx says, the monitor is really for debugging. Using an emulator implies crossdev, and there are much nicer ways of entering data than bashing it out straight in the monitor.
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 490 |
@assiduous: Hoxs is good at VIC emulation but unfortunately I expect more from an emulator, specially for development usage. I know there were (and probably still are) some bugs in Vice which Hoxs didn't have. But this is not enough for me and for many others. What you call "eye candies" are all required features. If it's useless for you, it's useful for someone else. |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
@Skate: i never said Hoxs was good for development usage,it probably isnt. all i said is that the emulation in Vice is NOT more reliable than in the other emulators. read my previous post again keeping in mind that Tonhuvudet asked about an emu for "playing demos". |
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Fredrik
Registered: Apr 2009
Posts: 204 |
But the question is:
When you look/hear the new demos presented in releases in this webpage, how many of you use a emulator and how many of you transfer the file to a real 64?
To do the demo justice, you should transfer the file to your 64.
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
i do both,depends on the demo. all are watched in the emulator,the selected ones on the real deal aswell. |
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Fredrik
Registered: Apr 2009
Posts: 204 |
Yes, i do the same as you.
If it is "great stuff", then I view the on the 64.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: @assiduous: Hoxs is good at VIC emulation but unfortunately I expect more from an emulator, specially for development usage. I know there were (and probably still are) some bugs in Vice which Hoxs didn't have. But this is not enough for me and for many others. What you call "eye candies" are all required features. If it's useless for you, it's useful for someone else.
Quote:As rx says, the monitor is really for debugging. Using an emulator implies crossdev, and there are much nicer ways of entering data than bashing it out straight in the monitor.
bad excuse: debugging more often than not involves changing code/data on the fly. anyways do you think I'd like to use vicemon to write some code ?! :) furthermore it would take not more than a few days to allow the cursor wander around, and parse the actual line, rewrite parser to be not so picky about spaces and letter case.
just think about it, you list some code, then sudden idea comes: lets change the $d021 color in the raster code. no you cant just go there with the cursor and rewrite it. you have to check for the lda #$00 address, then add 1 to it, then enter > address+1 color or was it > color adress+1? awkward solution. do you really think it wouldnt be easier to have a walkable cursor and press enter anywher?
ps: great, impossible to remove wrongly quoted post. perff ? |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
As I do spend quite a bit of time working in the VICE monitor, any improvement is welcome, but I think your seriously underestimating the work needed to make it a screen editor. Basically you'd have to chuck out all the code it uses today, as it's based on the native command line based widgets available (be they the terminal or a pop-up window). The reason cartridges have a screen editor is of course because that's what the C64 kernal provides. Modern OS:s use a command line interface, so that's what's available to applications that don't want to write their own from scratch. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
I guess its not a problem dropping in a textbox, because modern OSes dont support that :) Modern OSes use a GUI (too) anyway and not commandline :P
what we have already:
- the command parser is in there
- printing new line of dissasembly, memory dump, etc is in there
all it roughly needs is:
- add textbox
- fire parser on line where enter was pressed
- add function to scroll up down & print new line when textbox boundary reached with cursor.
doesnt looks very hard to me. ofcourse I'm lame for C, so I cant do it :P :/.... |
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Wile Coyote
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 636 |
VICE (if there's no real C64 hardware available)
VICE set to:
Screen - Double Size
Screen - Double Scan
Screen - PAL Emulation
looks good :)
The only down-side to VICE is the audio - picture sync, as its out by a fraction, making some demo's not look as good as they could
Also, VICE has a habit of turning off True Drive Emu. I'm forever switching True Drive Emu on |
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
Quote: VICE (if there's no real C64 hardware available)
VICE set to:
Screen - Double Size
Screen - Double Scan
Screen - PAL Emulation
looks good :)
The only down-side to VICE is the audio - picture sync, as its out by a fraction, making some demo's not look as good as they could
Also, VICE has a habit of turning off True Drive Emu. I'm forever switching True Drive Emu on
And here I thought my VICE only did that with the True Drive Emu ;)
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plagueis
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 48 |
Tonhuvudet said he watches all demos on the emu and select ones on the real deal.
I am the same way, however once I get a PAL c64 and a monitor that will work with color on PAL mode I will probably view *all* PAL demos as they were intended to be seen. Naturally I can't enjoy many of my favorite demos on the real hardware since they only work on PAL, and my two working c64's are both NTSC.
For the last two years or so I only had the XEM1541 to transfer, but recently I acquired an MMC Replay, which rocks. Now I try nearly everything that has a chance of working under NTSC on my c64 and 1084s. Having that cart makes it instantaneous and effortless...although some loaders don't work with the MMC Replay's SD drive. For those you can of course, easily copy the .d64 to floppy.
I realize many people know all this, but for anyone wondering if the MMC Replay is worth it, I'd say yes.
...for coding, I do use Vice a lot, because I can code for a while and then if I have to run off suddenly, I can just save state without having to rummage through my folders for a .d64 or look for a floppy disk. It's reliable and safe and pays off when you realize you won't lose hundreds of lines of code if a disk goes bad. I still code on the c64 some, but much of my coding is done on Vice. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11100 |
Quote:It's reliable and safe and pays off when you realize you won't lose hundreds of lines of code if a disk goes bad. I still code on the c64 some, but much of my coding is done on Vice.
and some day maybe you will even find out that using a crossassembler is even more reliable, and much easier and nicer to use than whatever you would be using on that emulated c64 =P |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I use Vice exclusively. Woe is me!
Vice snapshots FTW!
I wouldnt want to miss the convenience of composing in SDI under Vice. I must have a million .VSF files with SDI worktunestages. Its awesome.
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linde
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 47 |
Quote: VICE (if there's no real C64 hardware available)
VICE set to:
Screen - Double Size
Screen - Double Scan
Screen - PAL Emulation
looks good :)
The only down-side to VICE is the audio - picture sync, as its out by a fraction, making some demo's not look as good as they could
Also, VICE has a habit of turning off True Drive Emu. I'm forever switching True Drive Emu on
The drive emu thing happens to me when i drag/drop or double click-open prg or d64 files, so now I just mount everything with alt+8.
As for the video/sound sync issue... I suggested a video delay option in some vice 2.0 forum thread. It would be great to be able to turn on a 300 ms (or whatever your sound buffer length is) delay to the image when you are watching sync-heavy demos, or what do you think? |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 490 |
I remember I've read somewhere Vice's true drive emulation will keep its configuration based on the extension in the next version. so, if true drive emulation is on and you load a prg, true drive emulation may go off (if prg is configured like that) but when you load a d64 again, emulation setting will be on again unless you set it to off manually. |
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ToD
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 10 |
I use the xbox vice emu to watch demos, 100% smooth at 50hz as I've never had a pc monitor that did 50hz , infact with gamebase installed on xbox , I use it to play the games aswell :)
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Quote: I remember I've read somewhere Vice's true drive emulation will keep its configuration based on the extension in the next version. so, if true drive emulation is on and you load a prg, true drive emulation may go off (if prg is configured like that) but when you load a d64 again, emulation setting will be on again unless you set it to off manually.
There are currently a couple of different branches being worked on, all promising. In particular:
* When autostarting, TDE is still enabled, and Warp mode is automatically switched on. Normal mode is automatically switched back after kernal loading is done.
* When starting a .PRG, the file is not mounted over the virtual drive (which is what disables TDE now), but the data is just DMA:d into ram.
Both work a lot better than the virtual devices that are automatically used for autostarting today.
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 490 |
Nice approaches.
Automatic warp speed switching would be quite useful. I always do this manually and sometimes if I miss the execution point, I reload the program. If it is not too much to ask, I'd like to have auto warp mode switching on autostart optional.
See, Vice is the best ;) |
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The Phantom
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 360 |
I've used Vice since v1.15. I find it mediocre at best, since it seems with each upgrade, you lose something else. There once was a time when I could have a couple "vice" windows open, work on a cset, test it where I needed it, etc. Can't do that anymore as the "vice" windows close when they want, forcing me to save far more often than I used to.
And don't move the "vice window" outside your desktop, that forces an error, and you lose everything.
I've tried other emulations, and RA forbid, I still like vice better than the others. I can attach my cart (snapshot v5) image and have it set up as I had my real c64. It's really user friendly, easy to use/learn and does what I need it to do as far as my demo coding (Phantazm was entirely coded using Vice)..
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11100 |
Quote:I'd like to have auto warp mode switching on autostart optional.
it will be, no worries =)
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I've been using vice (sometimes up to 5 instances at a time)in all different kinds of monitor configurations
and screenmodes under windows and linux for years. Never had a problem with it crashing on me nor closing itself (ok, fullscreen mode is a little bitchy).
What pisses me of though is that the windows version wont render on the secondary monitor, while the linux version will.
Also a "stretch to fit windowsize" would be cool (fuck aspect ratio, i want SDI all over the screen)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11100 |
the first is beeing addressed right now :) and the other should already work by enabling hardware scaling and then maximizing the window (in linux anyways, dont know about windows) |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
I use VICE because it seems to be more accurate for me than CCSC64. It was a great tool to test my old SIDs and find the reason for occassional bugs. |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
I tend to use VICE most of the time.
One thing I would like to see is a "recent files" option in the File menu. |
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kenchis
Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 65 |
Quote: Witch of them two programs do you use, if you want to play demos on you pc?
I have tried them both and the sound is more accurate in Vice than in CCS64.
Do you think the same?
Do Vice have another "sidgenerator" that the CCS64?
(And of couse, the real 64 is the best way to look at demos)
Vice 2.1 uses sidplay-residfp which is in fact the best sound emulation of the SID 6581 available as open source.
In earlier versions it used the resid engine of sidplay2.
I dont know what CCS use, because it is closed source.
If you wanna know more about theory or to download, go to this homepage:
http://www.bel.fi/~alankila/c64-sw/
As an alternative there is a java version available ;-)
Searching for a SID player, that fits your needs?
http://jsidplay2.sourceforge.net/jsidplay2.jnlp |
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doynax
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 212 |
I tend to use VICE as well, and mostly because of its monitor. No doubt it's got its fair share of bugs and inconveniences, zeropage watchpoints still aren't enabled by default for one thing and the drivecode debugging is severely limited, and I'll be the first to admit that the interface itself is clumsy at best (thought you get used to it, I suppose.)
Nevertheless with a bug fix or two it's still light-years ahead of anything else, all thing considered.
Sure, I'll buy that data entry is easier in CCS/AR, but just the existence of symbolic labels in VICE to help figure out what address to actually change ought to make up for that five times over. Not to mention the other invaluable debugging features such as data breakpoints, backtracking and replays. |
