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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
single-channel echo (who was first?)
So, the NESers claim FIRST on single-channel echo (1988):
http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=5397
Was this made earlier on the C64?
On the Amiga I'm guessing there was plenty, anyone has any examples?
The war goes on...
:)
In the NESdev thread Neil Baldwin posts a link to his single-channel-echo-feature in his NES-editor. Pretty sweet: http://dutycyclegenerator.com/sound/echo.mp3
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Yeah, but most likely the single-channel-echo in that editor won't work if you'd have ie. a pattern with note after note sequence. The example already gives a room for ghost notes. But it's a nice feat. (for lazy asses) :)
Galway's 1st subtune from Microprose Soccer has pretty awesome 1ch echo slide-ish thingy and it's also from 1988 - perchaps he was faster! :D And that one is a way proper 1ch echo!
Subtune 5 from Galway's "Ping Pong" (1986) uses 3ch echoes - but you have echos on each single channel there :)
Also nice&smooth echoes on 1st and 2nd channel in his "Short Circuit" subtune 3 - 1986 :) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Goto80: Well, with such a limited crap sound chip as found in NES, I understand why they'd attempt anything to increase penis length from 1my to 2my :-)
And on c64 I can think of 4 different ways of doing those 1 channel echo things, thanks to our lovely SID chips :-)
But anyways, I guess several of the old game musicians didn't just work on one platform... some might have worked both with c64 and nes. But lets see if we can dig up some 1 channel echo sid tunes from before 1988 :-) |
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
i haven't actually been doing much of this on the c64, but on the amiga it's easy. but hm, 4 ways, ey? you mean e.g playing with gate on/off? to make it more concrete, adding echo to this:
C-4
---
D#4
---
C#4
---
B-4
---
...would be this:
C-4
---
D#4
c-4
C#4
d#4
B-4
c#4
---
b-4
changing the sustain can get clicky
changing the attack might work
changing the filter could also work in a way
changing waveform works
...well, i am sure you have some more elite tricks? :)
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
heh... well, you more or less covered it all, I guess.
(1) Using alternative Attack and trigging the echo-notes, used to work very nicely for me on somewhat fast notes, but that's when using a standard hardrestart.
(2) Then there's the alternative Sustain way.... for me that works best on sounds without hard restart.. can be with or without oscillator reset. Resetting oscillator does make it a bit more clicky.
(3)Another way is to do a direct Sustain change, during a sound... like having a tie note along with changing sustain and setting the "echo" note.
(4)Use some pulse sound that is somewhat square'ish, change it to triangle where you have the echos (also done with tie).
I didn't think of the filter method, as there are too many different sid chips, so you can't be sure that it will sound ok on all of them.
(5) Do a sound that loops and fits to the speed of your music.. something like wave:
41,41,41,41,41,41,41,41,21,21,11,11,LOOP. Use some instrument ADSR setting with a somewhat long Release.
In your music, switch gate off after a few steps, and do your "echo" note(s).
hmm... I guess that's about it... can't think of more ways at the moment, atleast :-)
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting goto80Neil Baldwin As in Neil Baldwin?
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
yes |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702 |
Quote: i haven't actually been doing much of this on the c64, but on the amiga it's easy. but hm, 4 ways, ey? you mean e.g playing with gate on/off? to make it more concrete, adding echo to this:
C-4
---
D#4
---
C#4
---
B-4
---
...would be this:
C-4
---
D#4
c-4
C#4
d#4
B-4
c#4
---
b-4
changing the sustain can get clicky
changing the attack might work
changing the filter could also work in a way
changing waveform works
...well, i am sure you have some more elite tricks? :)
Amiga chip is basically just a 4 channel DAC with some minor additional features. Echo on C64 would be what jeff mentioned particularly with using another instrument with lower sustain value to simulate same instrument with less volume
ps. I did similar on amiga but alternating echo effect between left and right speaker with volume changes
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Many old sids have echo.. 1986 and onwards..
galway/miami vice... bla, find out yourself.. ;D |
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
come on jan, prove your skills! in miami vice the echo uses a 2nd channel, right? |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
One of the tunes I always loved especially because of the very nice echo effects is Euro-Dance. But these are probably 2 channel, I know. |
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Stone
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 168 |
Fred Gray often used an echo-like effect on his lead instruments by fiddling with the pulse width in such a way that it sounds like the note is re-triggered. So he certainly did it before 1988. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
@Steppe: in that tune of mine, the echo is done with Attack on notes that are triggered, along with using a standard hard restart... made the echos quite soft by doing it that way, and it only requires one voice... I did use more voices, but that was for the tone of the sound - the echos can be done within one voice. I also used that trick in "Analogue.sid" and other tunes. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: come on jan, prove your skills! in miami vice the echo uses a 2nd channel, right?
try some old lars hård tunes.. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: Fred Gray often used an echo-like effect on his lead instruments by fiddling with the pulse width in such a way that it sounds like the note is re-triggered. So he certainly did it before 1988.
oktav arpeggio and square pulse, fred gray trademark |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
echo can be done by playing the same note 2 times, and 2nd time the volume is only 50% i dont see what's special about it.
i wouldnt be surprised if we find a 1984 sid that does it.. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
as a bonus: in the 60's, carl perkins invented the echo picking of a string on his guitar, on 1 string, with his magic hand moves.
now everybody does that.
someone has to be the first..
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11107 |
Quote:as a bonus: in the 60's, carl perkins invented the echo picking of a string on his guitar, on 1 string, with his magic hand moves.
no he didnt :) there are jazz recordings from the 50s were guitarrists use the same technique... and i am sure they werent first either :)
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Me was first, but I haven't released it yet. ;) |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: Quote:as a bonus: in the 60's, carl perkins invented the echo picking of a string on his guitar, on 1 string, with his magic hand moves.
no he didnt :) there are jazz recordings from the 50s were guitarrists use the same technique... and i am sure they werent first either :)
Mr. Les Paul was the man.
He invented:
- all the time (+modulation) based effects like: chorus, phaser, flanger, echo, delay etc-etc) based FFX we all use today, using AMPEX tape machines
- real-time female delay
- the first onstage sampler/looper, called the Les Paulverizer. Early '70s stuff...
- the first working solidbody electric guitar design, called "The Log", 1939
- The Gibbo. Well, it's his design, alive, kicking and strong for over 50 years...
- of course, some super-nifty guitar playing techniques
- multitrack recording (he had a main role in developing the first multitrack tape recorder by Ampex in the mid-50s)
- overdubbing
- close micing techniques, still used today
- the first home studio (virtually, the concept was the prototype of ALL modern studios)
- ..and who knows what else...?
Add some super-inventive, unmatched, spectacular playing skills and incerdible musical playfullness. If you like, just hit "Les Paul" and "Mary Ford" on Youtube. At the age of 90+, he still played live shows, despite some disabled fingers and health issues. All in all, he was one of the most important people of music in the last 100 years whose work has an effect on anything you do today with any music related activity.
June 9, 1915 August 13, 2009
RIP Mr Paul. |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Let's not get off topic. We're talking C-64 here, aren't we ? |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: Let's not get off topic. We're talking C-64 here, aren't we ?
Sorry for expanding your knowledge outside that... |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: Sorry for expanding your knowledge outside that...
Been working in the music retail business for over 15 years. LOL !
Still, there's effects nobody has done on the C-64, for your information. Can't wait to show you. :) |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: Been working in the music retail business for over 15 years. LOL !
Still, there's effects nobody has done on the C-64, for your information. Can't wait to show you. :)
:)
What about coding the "real-time female delay" in the next SDI version? :) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: :)
What about coding the "real-time female delay" in the next SDI version? :)
LOL !! Well, I won't say anything, but you're almost right. IT IS my new BITCH. ;) |
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
@Jan Harries: You mean Hård's song Supercan @ 02.20? It's an echo indeed! It's a shame that the time of the echo is only 1 step, and not 3 (like I tried to show above). So yes, you've proven your skills, but only to 72%.
@Jeff: thanks for clarifying! Regarding (5), back when I was using JCH I remember using a rather lazy method to make long echos. I used the same method, but also set transpose-values and basically played a very slow arpeggio with a long release. Like in my song Ajvar Relish. Good trick for lazy moments and reggae feelings! |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: LOL !! Well, I won't say anything, but you're almost right. IT IS my new BITCH. ;)
Can't wait to test ride that ;D |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Inspired from the Rondo Veneziano thread, this tune clearly has one channel echoes and is from 1987: Hysteria
Claim busted, as ridiculous as it was in the first place.
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
No tunes on the C-64 has one channel echo. ;-) |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 321 |
The track "EfnCold" i upped here uses a similar echo-type-note-effect in one of the melodys (its the same shit that octamed/protracker mods used for echos). It's not that effective but sounds ok to me.. |
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Bregalad
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2008
Posts: 42 |
Quote:Goto80: Well, with such a limited crap sound chip as found in NES, I understand why they'd attempt anything to increase penis length from 1my to 2my :-)
My it's really not much more limited than the 64, it has one more sound channel and individual voice volume control, as opposed to a filter, saw wave suppot, and (much much) more duty cycles available for square wave.
Quote:No tunes on the C-64 has one channel echo. ;-)
The C64 has only a global volume control and ADSR. Which is really bothersome for the single voice echo, the only way it'd work is abusing the gate bit a lot in weird ways (it's very probable did it once, but probably not before the end of C64's lifespan), but it were never the standard for the C64, while the NES has always be able to pull of any funky volume enveloppes.
So about who was first on the NES it's probably Contra, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone did it on another system equipped with the AY-3-8910 like the MSX before. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: No tunes on the C-64 has one channel echo. ;-)
No, only on the notes, not the whole channel.
But Geir.... your reverb routine, isnt that echo on whole channel ? :D |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
the correct term for Geir's thing would probably be "delay".
:-)
And on c64, I guess it's more correct to say "one voice" instead of "one channel" :-) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
yeah. i accept your nitpicking :D |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Just like Jeff says, the filter method is limited in its usefulness because it may sound different on different machines. However, I just want to add that using relative filter cutoff "sweeps" in order to simulate "note trigs" with different "amplitude" may nevertheless sound very nice (on machines that sounds like yours). In fact, it may actually sound a bit like a tape echo, speaking of "echo" vs "delay" and so on. So.. I guess it depends on whether you want to use the tune for a demo or so, or for the sake of music itself. |
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neilbaldwin
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 48 |
You guys :)
First off can I say that it wasn't me making the claim and I did say that my post on nesdev was tongue-in-cheek.
Good to see it promoted some debate though. I didn't realise there was so much NES/C64 rivalry :D
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Neil: there is no sid/nes rivalry - SID rules! :D |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Neil Baldwin!!
Man, I've been listening to your SID tunes since Shadowskimmer. Awesome You're still around.
Any chance of you doing a SID tune again someday ? That would make alot of people really happy here, including myself :-D
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Count me in into the circle of happy-be'ers! :-) |
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neilbaldwin
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 48 |
Quote: Count me in into the circle of happy-be'ers! :-)
Thanks!
I've been getting back into chip music recently but on the NES. It was easier for me to get back into (access to tools/old code etc.) so I rewrote my NES audio engine from scratch and have put out a couple of demos so far (http://dutycyclegenerator.com).
I don't know how accessible coding on C64 emulators is? I'm 100% Mac/OSX user these days and I have Power64 but as far as assemblers etc. I wouldn't know where to start.
Coding aside, I've been looking at Goat Tracker but I find it a little impenetrable (as I have always done with tracker-type stuff, I don't know why) so I need to spend more time figuring it out.
I don't have *much* time for this stuff (plenty of other things keep my busy these days) so don't hold your breath for anything any time soon. :)
Edit : oops, I quoted the wrong post. Sorry :)
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I always wondered, did you actually code your own music routine back on the c64 ?
You seem to have used the infamous Electrosound and some Rob Hubbard routines,
but some other tunes like ALA or ANOTHER TUNE FOR JOANNA sound like some custom driver.
Gotta say though, the shadowskimmer title tune is one of the f*cking best tunes ever.
And yes, Emulation is quite usable these days (VICE emulating 8580 atleast).
Alot of people compose only under emulation (myself included). |
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neilbaldwin
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 48 |
Quote: I always wondered, did you actually code your own music routine back on the c64 ?
You seem to have used the infamous Electrosound and some Rob Hubbard routines,
but some other tunes like ALA or ANOTHER TUNE FOR JOANNA sound like some custom driver.
Gotta say though, the shadowskimmer title tune is one of the f*cking best tunes ever.
And yes, Emulation is quite usable these days (VICE emulating 8580 atleast).
Alot of people compose only under emulation (myself included).
I did eventually, yes. The Electrosound and Hubbard comments are correct though :)
Coincidentally I've recently done an email interview for Jan Harries where I (try to) explain a bit more about it all. I don't know when it's due to be published though, maybe Jan can tell us.
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