| |
Logiker
Registered: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 |
Compo categories insufficient
Maybe I can explain best with a current example...
When we look at the Revision party there are for example following two categories:
"C64 Graphics" and "Mixed Graphics"
Within the party these categories were called:
"ASCII/ANSI/PETSCII" and "Oldschool Graphics"
I see several problems here:
- You don't know what the real compo category was called like
- You can't see that "C64 Graphics" stand for "PETSCII" (and others)
- You believe there are several entries missing, although it's not, because the other entries were from other systems (Which you would know if there was the correct name of the compo category)
There is also other examples like:
- BASIC 10Liner Contest 2019 (BASIC 10Liner Contest 2019) -> Here it's too hard to add the given categories
- Flashback 2019 Flashback 2019 -> Currently every gfx is put into "C64 Graphics", which was PETSCII at revision, so some users get confused (see comment at Flasheep).
That's my feedback so far. I hope it can help.
A similar entry already was entered some time ago: Compo descriptions |
|
| |
hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4574 |
<Post edited by hedning on 10/6-2019 22:21>
Moving all C64 Petscii to "Mixed" category, as mixed gfx and mixed textmode was separated at Flashback.
The rest of your concerns are recorded. I already asked to introduce C64 Petscii as a separate category, because that is fairly common. |
| |
Logiker
Registered: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 |
A PETSCII Category helps indeed.
Nevertheless there are many cases where the categories just don't match the schema. Imagine if someone wants to count the seconds of music (see Compo descriptions) or if you count the lines of code (see BASIC 10Liner Contest 2019). These are just examples where many categories are missing.
Thanks so far! |
| |
bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2476 |
What Logiker said. |
| |
hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4574 |
We will probably not add all PC scene categories though. But if we focus on how to deal with the C64 releases, we should be fine. Adding a "Mixed textmode" etc could help in some cases etc. It's not common, but seems to happen from time to time.
BASIC 10Liner Contest 2019 should only have one category, and as I see it C64 Basic Demo is enough, as everything handed in is some kind of demonstration of what people can do in 10 lines of Basic. |
| |
Logiker
Registered: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 |
Sadly it's not enough to edit the predefined category list and patch it from time to time.
The BASIC 10 Liner Contest had 4 categories (PUR-80, PUR-120, EXTENDED-256 and WILD). And there was even a custom ranking. Usually no other event will have these categories.
In my mind you have a category type, that can be totally generic and that will often match 100 but sometimes just 90% or even only 50%. But you will need a custom category name, that can be set individually.
Otherwise some problems I mentioned in the first post wouldn't be solved.
Currently we have only category types, but not really the category names itself. It's just interpreted as category name. Mostly it worked... but not always, and not well enough. |
| |
Mr.Ammo
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 228 |
Quoting LogikerThe BASIC 10 Liner Contest [...]. This compo does not seem to have any significance for the commodore 64 scene. In my opinion it should have never been added as an event. There aren't even entries available for download on the linked web page and event page while the compo has been over since 1 April. |
| |
Logiker
Registered: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 |
Quoting Mr AmmoThis compo does not seem to have any significance for the commodore 64 scene. In my opinion...
If you are not happy with this example, then take the Revision example or another one. |
| |
Mr.Ammo
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 228 |
Quoting LogikerQuoting Mr AmmoThis compo does not seem to have any significance for the commodore 64 scene. In my opinion... If you are not happy with this example, then take the Revision example or another one. That's not my point. |
| |
Logiker
Registered: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 |
Quoting Mr AmmoThat's not my point.
But the topic is about Compo categories not about specific events. |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 201 |
Late to the party...
ptoing tried in 2016: Compo descriptions
I tried in 2017: Textmode Competition
Things on CSDb don't change. |
| |
Logiker
Registered: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 |
Well, there are still some sparkles of hope.
I believe that people many people recognize now, that a long term solution is needed and not just a minor fix.
Wouldn't it be nice to find the correct categories for each event instead of just a generic one, that sometimes does not fit at all?
Let's hope the party will just start! |
| |
hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4574 |
Adding custom compo types will not happen. It will be misunderstood and will mess upp the database galore.
What is missing now are:
* C64 PETSCII (for clean PETSCII compos)
* Mixed Texttype (For ANSI/ASCII/PETSCII Mixed compos)
* Mixed Intro (For intro compos for many platforms)
Those seems to make sense in most of cases, for starters. |
| |
Logiker
Registered: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 |
Quoting hedningAdding custom compo types will not happen.
A pity in my mind.
Quoting hedningIt will be misunderstood...
If you could have exactly the same name as in the compo I think that would be easier to understand, not harder (as it is the case now).
Quoting hedning...and will mess up the database galore.
Well, the database would have to be adapted in an appropriate way. Not easy, but it would be worth it.
Quoting hedningWhat is missing now are:
* C64 PETSCII (for clean PETSCII compos)
* Mixed Texttype (For ANSI/ASCII/PETSCII Mixed compos)
* Mixed Intro (For intro compos for many platforms)
Those seems to make sense in most of cases, for starters.
These adaptions would definitely help a lot! :-) |
| |
Mr.Ammo
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 228 |
Quoting LogikerQuoting Mr AmmoThat's not my point.
But the topic is about Compo categories not about specific events. Not adding these historical insignificant compos for the commodore 64 scene results in not having the need for these extra compo categories you mentioned for the basic demo compo.
Here's an old posting about when events need to be added to the database: Change of rules - What kind of Events belong into the Database |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
+1 for C64 Petscii compo. |
| |
Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
corners must be cut, or csdb will end up with thousands of categories which makes the DB unusable. |
| |
hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4574 |
Quote: corners must be cut, or csdb will end up with thousands of categories which makes the DB unusable.
Correct |
| |
Logiker
Registered: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 |
Quoting Mr AmmoNot adding these historical insignificant compos for the commodore 64 scene results in not having the need for these extra compo categories you mentioned for the basic demo compo.
Agreed mainly. Though there were more than these examples. Look at Revision (which is relevant I think). It has now the categories "C64 Graphics" and "Mixed Graphics". It just very hard (in fact impossible) to know what these categories were called in real. Well, you can (have to) look up at the Revision homepage or at Demozoo for accurate data. Is that what this DB is there for?
And yes, there should not be too many categories, or as I call them category types. But correct category names would be more than just nice to have to me. |
| |
Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: corners must be cut, or csdb will end up with thousands of categories which makes the DB unusable.
Well that's a bit of a hyperbole ;)
No one is asking for thousands of compo categories, not even dozens. I'd suggest only 1 additional compo category: PETSCII!
Many parties have a petscii compo these days, so seems quite well established. It will not make the database unusable, it will make it a bit more correct.
Only downside is that past parties with a petscii compo will need their compo results updated in the db, but this does not sound like a huge job. I'm sure compo organizers themselves will be happy to help out. |
| |
hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4574 |
Quote: Well that's a bit of a hyperbole ;)
No one is asking for thousands of compo categories, not even dozens. I'd suggest only 1 additional compo category: PETSCII!
Many parties have a petscii compo these days, so seems quite well established. It will not make the database unusable, it will make it a bit more correct.
Only downside is that past parties with a petscii compo will need their compo results updated in the db, but this does not sound like a huge job. I'm sure compo organizers themselves will be happy to help out.
+1. And as we have so many registered users that are constantly helping out with the database instead of whining in the forums and comments I am sure it will take no time at all. |
| |
Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: +1. And as we have so many registered users that are constantly helping out with the database instead of whining in the forums and comments I am sure it will take no time at all.
so let's do it :) |
| |
Logiker
Registered: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 |
I want to conclude this topic with a small summary from my side. Just how I see it:
A) Compo categories / names (in the real world) are chosen by the compos themselves. Not by CSDb.
B) Compo categories in CSDb are hard coded. (Therefor they can't match up will all the categories / names in the real world.)
There is two ways to fix this gap:
1. Make categories totally flexible. (E.g. using a free text. The current hard-coded category could still stay for grouping.)
2. Add some more categories in hope to cover more compos than now. (But you wont be able to match all compos.)
And of course you can ignore the problem and whatever.
In fact it's up to the coders what they want and what they are able to do. Technical it's possible. But maybe a bit tricky.
Within this thread I think the 2nd possibility has been chosen. If that's true there might be a need for a place to collect wishes / needs for categories.
Good luck to anyone! |
| |
Moderators
Registered: Nov 2010
Posts: 31 |
Stay on topic, thread cleaned and posts moved to profession: full-screen graphician vs graphician |
| |
bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2476 |
I think we have collected enough ideas now. I hope Perff can implement them in a way satisfactory for most.
Topic closed. |
