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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Evaluating the moderation of CSDb
I think it's time to evaluate how the moderation of CSDb is going. Good/bad?.. Anyone?
Something just struct my eye. I just saw the "moderation rules" thread (started by Oswald) being closed for no obvious reason (Ok, Steppe said - "close thread?" or something). I disagree in such an approach to moderation. The moderator should not close a thread unless it's going really bad, and warnings have been issued; furthermore I think moderators who personally participate in a discussion should be rendered powerless over moderating that particular discussion. Furthermore, when closing a thread, I think a reason for doing so should be given..
Oh, and this is not supposed to be another "bitching" topic. I'd like to call and everybody interested to state their thoughts. Good AND bad. Not just bad, please!.. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Sounds reasonable.
I remember being among those who called for moderation of the forums back when the nata debacle was on.
But currently i feel like the moderation is performed on the basis of each moderators personal opinions and preferences rather than on a set of transparent rules.
I might have missed it, but is there some written code of conduct for the moderators ?
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Set of transparent rules:
READ HERE:
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/help.php?section=rules (21.sep 2007)
AS for the rest. I think it is really pointless to discuss moderation. Thus it is pointless to discuss the closing of the mentioned thread.
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
I very much like the idea from Laxity.
Alot of threads and actions are discussed amongst the Moderators, in order to find a mutualk solution or answer.
Oswalds thread was closed by Groepaz, after request from Steppe + Oswald beeing notified about reasons for first censoring his additions.
Groepaz did also mention that we are unable to monitor every single thread and clean them out for useless entries. Do help us if you feel things are out of order!
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: Set of transparent rules:
READ HERE:
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/help.php?section=rules (21.sep 2007)
AS for the rest. I think it is really pointless to discuss moderation. Thus it is pointless to discuss the closing of the mentioned thread.
Creamd, what is pointless is unkept rules. Exactly what Stainless Steel said: moderation is based on personal preferences and opinions.
Rules are not kept instead decisions are taken on personal opinions, actions are taken without warnings and explanations. There are no guidelines what can you expect, my offcomment gets censored, while others are left alone, some topics gets closed when people ask for it some not. chaos. the moderator team abuses their rights instead of using them.
Trazan, strange that you able to monitor all my actions, while not other's. There was no reason also to close that other thread. There was much more requests to close the OS war topic you still refused based on personal preference. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: Creamd, what is pointless is unkept rules. Exactly what Stainless Steel said: moderation is based on personal preferences and opinions.
Rules are not kept instead decisions are taken on personal opinions, actions are taken without warnings and explanations. There are no guidelines what can you expect, my offcomment gets censored, while others are left alone, some topics gets closed when people ask for it some not. chaos. the moderator team abuses their rights instead of using them.
Trazan, strange that you able to monitor all my actions, while not other's. There was no reason also to close that other thread. There was much more requests to close the OS war topic you still refused based on personal preference.
As I said. Discussing of moderation is pointless.
So your comments got censored and you accuse moderators of abusing of their rights. What do you want to achieve? More tolerance towards provocations in release comments? Tolerance towards your comments? Total censorship of everything resembling stupid comment?
Topics like this aren't solving anything. Censoring of comments will never be completely fair and flawless process but it's far from abuse of moderator's rights.
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
(and not as harsch, I welcome any feedback of the Moderators work. Anything I do will be for a reason - not personal!) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
I guess the unsaid truth here is that because moderators are human, no matter how there are rules or guidelines for their actions, you can still either be on their right or wrong side. And people on the wrong side will get watched more closely.
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
"Topics like this aren't solving anything. "
EDIT--> "Discussing of moderation is pointless. ", even worse <--
Rubbish. Ofcourse any debate about how CSDb is working as a community or any other aspect is good. You know why?.. Bacause this is _our_ community.. All of us... You moderators serve a purpose here for all of us, and if you're unable to debate the function you perform, you're ill suited to perform it (I'm not talking about you personally, CreaMD. I'm merely stating a general point). I think it's of vital importants that you moderator participate in such a discussion, because the rest of us _have_ to be able to trush you completely, and that's not gonna happen by dismissing a discussion about your own function.
Oh, and the topic is not here to solve something that is _broken_. It's a whole hearted attempt to do something constructive about the moderation and state of CSDb, which we like so much. Improving on the state of something is never bad, is it? |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
Thanx Laxity!
I will gladly recieve PMs about how to improve the work of moderators, what could be done to add more value to CSDB and new ideas! |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Hear Hear!
Laxity for supermoderator! ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
i think the point he wants to make is, that noone will ever be 100% satisfied with the rules, the moderation, the site as a whole, etc blabla.
if you'd make a poll on any website about the moderation, i can guarantee you the result will be : it sucks. thats the way it is. moderation sucks. ideally, we wouldnt have any moderation, and everyone would agree on whatever rules have been established, never complain, and never post a stupid comment. but that doesnt work. and that's why moderation, and all its subjective flaws are there. (but ofcourse, you knew all that already).
what i'm trying to say anyway? =)
well, i don't think discussion about moderation is useless (afterall, we do that internally a lot. and even if it sometimes may look like it, most things that happen are not personal decisions by a single moderator). i do however think that discussing certain things over and over in the forum is counterproductive and doesnt help anyone. like i said before, if you have a problem, discuss it with a moderator in PM. (some ppl really manage to do that infact, cheers, XP+10 :=P)
that said, it would be totally awesome if *everyone* would take his time to cool down a bit, _not_ come up with whatever ideas for a while, and let us catch up with, _and clean up_ the mess that happened in the last week. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Oh come on. There's always room for improvement, and since this is a community forum for all of us (including the moderators), I think it'll be best to discuss this in public. So no PMs. I just don't think that refering to the history of moderating, is very productive in discussing how moderating should or could work. Boiling it all down, I think what you moderators do is a really ungreatfull job, and I'd like to believe (actually I do) that you do it in our best interest.
Supermod?.. no thanks.. :)
Ok, here's an idea for better moderation: Moderate, close threads, act on the community ONLY when there's no way to avoid it. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Ah what can I say, I think so far you're doing an ok job. There haven't been too many incidents where I noticed your actions so far. But it feels good to know there are some people with balls enough to kickban future trolls to avoid larger damage.
And hey, just because you're mods now doesn't mean to me that you have to be neutral towards every topic and every poster! Keep on discussing, stay layed back and keep the moderating down to the lowest necessary level. I'm confident this will be for the better of this place in the long run. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:
I just don't think that refering to the history of moderating, is very productive in discussing how moderating should or could work.
thats exactly why i think it should be done in PM. discussing it in public has an enormous potential of attracting those who only want to stir some shit.
then again, maybe we should just regulary start such a thread and whoever starts stirring the shit gets kicked....or something =P
Quote:
And hey, just because you're mods now doesn't mean to me that you have to be neutral towards every topic and every poster!
that's impossible anyway :) for moderation to be effective, sometimes decisions have to be made quickly (especially when it comes to deleting posts/comments/whatever to prevent further mess) and that means not so objective actions sometimes. and political correctness is for sissies anyway =P |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 833 |
At the moment the moderators are doing quite a fine job (but not perfect as nothing EVER is perfect in life.) For example, rough has started threads discussing incorrections and requested information of a large bunch of added entries, which i believe is a very nice idea - it would improve the database's detail at a colossal rate.
One thing that IS lacking though (and that I would personally like to see in action), is a selection of moderators using up their spare time to manage and sort out older threads which include nothing but pure rubbish. There are quite a lot of these ranged from around 3 years ago, up to the year of the nata saga (this year), which no one is EVER going to read again - leaving those threads lying about on CSDb's webspace, wasting up valuable storage for other intersting stuff that could replace them (you notice a lot of those Wanderer posts contain more bytes than a FULL .D64 image ? sheesh!).
Anyway, overall - moderators can of course improve their skill of work for this site, it's only if they have the bottle to do it, which I'm sure they do.
For the answer to Laxity's question, at a scale of 1 (bad) to 5 (excellent), I'd say 3.9582 |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:
For the answer to Laxity's question, at a scale of 1 (bad) to 5 (excellent), I'd say 3.9582
lol :=)
as for cleaning up 3 year old threads.... i dare to say that this wont be a very popular idea among the mods =) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
I feel those are good warning examples archived at the forum, why not leave them there, maybe it will prevent someone down the road going over to the darkside :) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
So far, so good.
Allthough, moderation should be evaluated, yes. Things like, why do moderators have the liberty to delete a post, wheras other people don't have the same liberty to make a crap post? I'm not a fan of the 'hush, hush' culture. If you delete a post or whatever (kickban someone in the ass), give a good reason. And 'it's pointless' is not a good reason to me.
Who selected the moderators? Who made the rules? Most rules I agree with, others I don't. This is the place to discuss it, over and over and over again. Seems pointless, but it isn't, even if there's no outcome (a change of plan).
We can ofcourse always make an anti-demo. |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 342 |
tricky .. u can't please all of the people all of the time.
u can really f... up a vibe if its too moderated and strict.. or it can turn into mayhem if there no buffers (as in trains ;-) ) or whatever.
the majority of the people who post are well 20-30+ 's ? due to when we started doing things on the machine. Also things can be written , and have more than one context.
only thing i dislike to be honest, is people acting up without a decent argument atleast or just posting something just to post something that isn't helpful.
not been here long , but sometimes things stray from the topic, thats not bad all of the time, it's just funny when people are overbearing in making their point about sticking to the subject.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:
Who made the rules?
most of the actual text was written by me, based on the old rules, and last not least based on what was discussed in the forum, over and over, for the last year(s). (and that said, i don't agree with all rules either, thats just the way it is, and will always be.)
and as for discussing things over and over....oh well. one thing we discussed was removing comments and forum all together, making the site more like http://demozoo.org/ .... it would be a lot easier to maintain atleast =P
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
from trazan:
> No, Im not monitoring nor pinpointing your entries. I check the "latest 5" entries once in a while
>
still you only deleted mine, while all comments there was offtopic.
....
moderation would be more friendly if done like this:
- either keep the rules or dont, but dont pinpoint ppl
- send a pm with the reason if you deleted a comment/note/etc from a release
- give reason _in_ the forum if it was a forum past
- give warnings in the forums, and only act afterwards
- _only_ close threads when the majority of the contenders ask it/unacceptable bitching/behaviour etc.
- act only when there's no way to avoid it (Laxity)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
moderation would be more friendly if people would post like this:
- think before posting, twice
- see above
=P
(i miss a way to send reason to ppl too....but i can also understand why majority of mods voted against it. some of the things you are proposing are great, unless you are the one who has to do them. then you suddenly realise they are a lot of work, and serve little to no useful purpose) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Oswald, talking about your specific case, won't get us anywhere - it being fair or not. It'll just stir up emotions and have the discussion go to a deadlock. (See Groepaz answar already - no offence!)
Let's try an focus on a meta level.
I'm not saying that the community as such should in any way dictate the rules of the moderators. That doesn't work. But talking about how it's working, what's good and what's bad, gives the moderators an oppotunity to act (adjust their moderation) on basis of the community response - like in the real world.
I think it'd be cool if these things were considered by the moderation team (please notice the word: considered :)):
- I think it would be ace if moderators would "never" close a thread, unless it could not be avoided, or the creator of the thread requests it. (With a notification: Closed by the request of the creator)
- Deleted posts (in the forum) should be replaced by a notification of whos post was deleted and why. (Not signed by the moderating person, to avoid things from getting unessesarily personal) |
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
Quote:- I think it would be ace if moderators would "never" close a thread, unless it could not be avoided, or the creator of the thread requests it. (With a notification: Closed by the request of the creator)
- Deleted posts (in the forum) should be replaced by a notification of whos post was deleted and why. (Not signed by the moderating person, to avoid things from getting unessesarily personal)
I totally agree.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:
- Deleted posts (in the forum) should be replaced by a notification of whos post was deleted and why. (Not signed by the moderating person, to avoid things from getting unessesarily personal)
we decided against that because it makes threads totally unreadable when there is more than just one deleted post. also it still gives the trolling person the attention he wants, and more stuff to discuss. it's the best of all suboptimal alternatives, imho. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: moderation would be more friendly if people would post like this:
- think before posting, twice
- see above
=P
(i miss a way to send reason to ppl too....but i can also understand why majority of mods voted against it. some of the things you are proposing are great, unless you are the one who has to do them. then you suddenly realise they are a lot of work, and serve little to no useful purpose)
So if I will think 4x before posting I'll get a warning/explanation ? =)
Seriously I have never encountered this kind of rude&unpolite moderation so far. You get warnings and explanations everywhere and when you dont you will know the reason anyway. What have we here? A bunch of anonymous moderators with full control without any responsitivity or feedback to the users, also the mods are not keeping rules, instead they use their personal preferences. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:
So if I will think 4x before posting I'll get a warning/explanation ? =)
ideally it would result in no posts that would need moderation =) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/forums/?roomid=11&topicid=46803#46841
Burglar:
"heh, you should worry, when even a crappy coder like Oswald can improve your code......
(lets hope the mods dont 'moderate' me;)"
Creamd:
"We are only moderating one person at time. Currently it is Oswald because he is really annoying. ;)"
Groepaz:
"exactly, for now you are save enno :=)"
6. It is therefore not permissable to use CSDb as a media for any kind of personal attacks/discriminating or foul language (using the forum, oneliners, comments on CSDb entries, PM's, deliberate downvoting or anything similar), and any such will be punished with temporarily or permanent exlusion from the site.
exactly as I already said:
"the mods are not keeping rules, instead they use their personal preferences."
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
The ohsovery insulting posts are removed, next time look at the smileys aswell.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: The ohsovery insulting posts are removed, next time look at the smileys aswell.
So what we have here? First of another kind of abuse of the forums. Codename: "angry user complaining about moderators".
p.s.: I don't think that humour should be completely removed from this site but ok, I respect the other moderator decision to remove it based on Oswald's strict interpretation of the word "any kind". Let's hope this won't repeat too often because it reminds me of similar case where the user who was too obsessed by the rules has been later banned from CSDB.
Before anyone misintepretes this as a threat. It isn't. I'm the last person on earth that would ever wanted to kick Oswald out from here. I rather quit moderation job.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
case closed for me. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
So oswald is being "moderated" for him being the oswaldbogar ? come on ! :-D
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
Thats not the case, No |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: http://noname.c64.org/csdb/forums/?roomid=11&topicid=46803#46841
Burglar:
"heh, you should worry, when even a crappy coder like Oswald can improve your code......
(lets hope the mods dont 'moderate' me;)"
Creamd:
"We are only moderating one person at time. Currently it is Oswald because he is really annoying. ;)"
Groepaz:
"exactly, for now you are save enno :=)"
6. It is therefore not permissable to use CSDb as a media for any kind of personal attacks/discriminating or foul language (using the forum, oneliners, comments on CSDb entries, PM's, deliberate downvoting or anything similar), and any such will be punished with temporarily or permanent exlusion from the site.
exactly as I already said:
"the mods are not keeping rules, instead they use their personal preferences."
sorry, Oswald, I was trying to be funny/sarcastic, I guess I failed and my post can be perceived as trolling, which was not my intention...
oh well, so bad jokes are removed as well now...
so can the moderation team please post a posting template, apparently everything has to be really strict around here and I really don't understand where you boys draw the line.
possible post template:
Hi <nick>,
You are so great, I think you are the best!
bye, <me>
bah bah bah |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
(Posts removed since Oswald felt he was insulted...or something....)
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
OSWALD.....YOU SUCK! |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: OSWALD.....YOU SUCK!
We all suck from time to time. How else are you going to get that cool drink through that straw into your mouth?
I mean: "WHO MODERATES THE MODERATORS?"
(Yes I know that has nothing to do with the first part of my post but I don't wanna be off-topic too much). |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I sense a "Topic closed" approaching.
Thinking of it, i really don't envy the moderators.
In the words of Gorgeous George, "This is going to get messy".
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:
"WHO MODERATES THE MODERATORS?"
would it make you more happy to know that i am one of the most censored persons ? =P |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: Quote:
"WHO MODERATES THE MODERATORS?"
would it make you more happy to know that i am one of the most censored persons ? =P
so the worst person in terms of following 'the rules' is also judge and executioner on those same rules, that smells kinda fishy doesn't it ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
hehe, if i recall correctly most of these censored posts came from cleaning up natabamubaracuda crap =) (i became moderator after that)
and i'm not complaining either. infact i don't understand at all why anyone would bitch about deletion of some stupid crap that was posted. it's not like we go around and delete useful posts. you make a half funny joke, i post a not so serious reply. and then they get deleted. OMG. the world is falling apart! |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: hehe, if i recall correctly most of these censored posts came from cleaning up natabamubaracuda crap =) (i became moderator after that)
and i'm not complaining either. infact i don't understand at all why anyone would bitch about deletion of some stupid crap that was posted. it's not like we go around and delete useful posts. you make a half funny joke, i post a not so serious reply. and then they get deleted. OMG. the world is falling apart!
True, true, but we still have to acknowledge that this is also a sceners hangout. It's not only about building an as big and accurate as possible c64 scene database, imo.
Hangouts come with bullshit, so make space for it and add functionality to move a thread as-is to the hangout forum. The main forum can remain completely clean this way and the craptalkers (me!) also have their area.
Or, all craptalkers are invited to move the bullshit to https://sh.scs-trc.net/ (shameless plug) ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
yes, that is a missing feature (moving threads) which afaik is already on the todo list =) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: hehe, if i recall correctly most of these censored posts came from cleaning up natabamubaracuda crap =) (i became moderator after that)
and i'm not complaining either. infact i don't understand at all why anyone would bitch about deletion of some stupid crap that was posted. it's not like we go around and delete useful posts. you make a half funny joke, i post a not so serious reply. and then they get deleted. OMG. the world is falling apart!
Well, that's actually not the action but the signal sent. "We do not tolerate such behaviour here at CSDb" (said with a 50'ies accent - that's a joke btw.).
I think such moderation sucks badly, but I can live with it, if that's what the majority of people find ok - I just think it's unnesseary bullying in a place where there ought to be freedom of speech (and joking around and being friends and being pissed at each other and think Oswald is annoying, and thinking he's cool and hating cracks in a time without new releases, and intros that suck, and demos that are cool, and tools that are windows only.. and get all those things you get when you're involved in something you like.)... Ah shit.. I'm starting to sound like a god damn hippie.... a joint, anyone? |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: Well, that's actually not the action but the signal sent. "We do not tolerate such behaviour here at CSDb" (said with a 50'ies accent - that's a joke btw.).
I think such moderation sucks badly, but I can live with it, if that's what the majority of people find ok - I just think it's unnesseary bullying in a place where there ought to be freedom of speech (and joking around and being friends and being pissed at each other and think Oswald is annoying, and thinking he's cool and hating cracks in a time without new releases, and intros that suck, and demos that are cool, and tools that are windows only.. and get all those things you get when you're involved in something you like.)... Ah shit.. I'm starting to sound like a god damn hippie.... a joint, anyone?
Hear Hear! \o/
I have to say it again, Laxity for Super Moderator! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:
I think such moderation sucks badly, but I can live with it, if that's what the majority of people find ok - I just think it's unnesseary bullying in a place where there ought to be freedom of speech (and joking around and being friends and being pissed at each other and think Oswald is annoying, and thinking he's cool and hating cracks in a time without new releases, and intros that suck, and demos that are cool, and tools that are windows only.. and get all those things you get when you're involved in something you like.)... Ah shit.. I'm starting to sound like a god damn hippie.... a joint, anyone?
thing is, people usually don't start a new thread for stuff like that, but they regulary manage to destroy threads started by someone who had a serious question (for example). and THAT will not (or no more) tolerated, because its major annoying for those (few) who actually want to seriously contribute to the database. and yes, that has priority. if someone doesnt want to help with, or contribute to, the database, maybe he should consider hanging out at lemon, or SH, or whatever else. or better yet, create a c64 release :=) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Quote:thing is, people usually don't start a new thread for stuff like that, but they regulary manage to destroy threads started by someone who had a serious question (for example). and THAT will not (or no more) tolerated, because its major annoying for those (few) who actually want to seriously contribute to the database. and yes, that has priority. if someone doesnt want to help with, or contribute to, the database, maybe he should consider hanging out at lemon, or SH, or whatever else. or better yet, create a c64 release :=)
Nicely put, I can agree with that. It's also a kind of cruel & unofficial "mob rules" moderation when bogárs or kittens start flying (signalling that a thread has been closed for all serious discussion), I rather prefer official moderation that just unceremoniously closes a thread, or nukes the offending posts. That said, bogárs and other abominations also have their place, but not as much anymore, as most "vibrant" personalities aren't here anymore... |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
While we're at it, I'm curious.
Will this thread get closed, am I 'crossing the line' and will I be 'moderated' ?
There's even a Oswald post on that thread, I'm livin' it dangerous!
Or am I just having a little chit chat still within the tolerance threshold of the moderators ?
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: Quote:
I think such moderation sucks badly, but I can live with it, if that's what the majority of people find ok - I just think it's unnesseary bullying in a place where there ought to be freedom of speech (and joking around and being friends and being pissed at each other and think Oswald is annoying, and thinking he's cool and hating cracks in a time without new releases, and intros that suck, and demos that are cool, and tools that are windows only.. and get all those things you get when you're involved in something you like.)... Ah shit.. I'm starting to sound like a god damn hippie.... a joint, anyone?
thing is, people usually don't start a new thread for stuff like that, but they regulary manage to destroy threads started by someone who had a serious question (for example). and THAT will not (or no more) tolerated, because its major annoying for those (few) who actually want to seriously contribute to the database. and yes, that has priority. if someone doesnt want to help with, or contribute to, the database, maybe he should consider hanging out at lemon, or SH, or whatever else. or better yet, create a c64 release :=)
The first part of that sounds reasonable (i.e not the part I wrote :)). Where people hang out is their business, and I think it's great that there's a bit of goofing around here. I, however, see your point quite clearly about the serious threads (QA type ones), which I guess can be moderated with: "funny, but please take it somewhere else!" when goofed up.... But it's not just goofs were talking about. Goofing is not the real problem, is it? I think the problem is when it's the real hot discussions that are mod'ed, because that's when people have invested something in their comments. That's when people get offended, and think the moderators are bias SOBs.. know what I mean?
Oh well.. look at the time! :)
Thanks for participating in the discussion too, btw. It's great to hear what's being "thought about" behind the _scene_.
Stainless:.. "You're over the line.. expect to be closed! in 3...2...1..." :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote: While we're at it, I'm curious.
Will this thread get closed, am I 'crossing the line' and will I be 'moderated' ?
There's even a Oswald post on that thread, I'm livin' it dangerous!
Or am I just having a little chit chat still within the tolerance threshold of the moderators ?
it's obviously always a case by case decision. and yes it (ofcourse, wanted or not, yes it's unfair) does depend on a persons individual trackrecord. you earn what you seed, just like in real life =P |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:
I think the problem is when it's the real hot discussions that are mod'ed, because that's when people have invested something in their comments. That's when people get offended, and think the moderators are bias SOBs.. know what I mean?
people should simply take such discussions to the right place. ie NOT flood the comments of some release with generic windows flames. make a new thread in the forum for that kind of stuff.
uhm, and if "hot discussion" means calling each other names and lame and all that crap, i will still delete that when i see it, such stuff doesnt contribute anything to a discussion afterall. if you want to tell the world that someone is lame, make an antidemo goddamnit =P |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 833 |
Interesting reading. Don't you think it's time to take action though, rather than overflowing the river-dam further ? I think you lot have pretty much said everything about the particular question by now. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
pretty crappy scene forum if you cannot call someone lame. |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
Quote: pretty crappy scene forum if you cannot call someone lame.
Some users on this forum doesnt seem to be sceners, instead crying out for removing of posts...:) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
...also some people with only a handful of credits for stuff like text/idea used to think they are sceners =) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
btw the moderation practices really doesnt follow the offcomment rules, comment area is used regurarly to discuss issues about the release. either the rules or the moderation should change. or the rules should be changed to "1. the rule is that there are no rules" ;) |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
We could easily leave users roam free here, but then, we could just aswell shut down whats supposed to be a Scener Database and call this Lemon....So, bring on Nata, Bamu and WDR - None of them did anything to make this a better place really. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: We could easily leave users roam free here, but then, we could just aswell shut down whats supposed to be a Scener Database and call this Lemon....So, bring on Nata, Bamu and WDR - None of them did anything to make this a better place really.
No, that's bull. It wouldn't make CSDb into yet another Lemon, because CSDb and Lemon are fundamentally different and appeal to two different kinds of users (simplifying it bit here).. At least I think so.
You're also wrong about Nata/Bamu not contributing with anything here at CSDb. He was annoying and self absorbed at times (especially towards the end), but a good musician and had some great ideas that I think were picked up on in more than one instance.. |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Laxity: If you really think Lemon and CSDb are "funtamentally different" you should do something else than computer stuff from time to time. They'are almost the same, it's just that people on here think they are superior because they know what LDA or FLD mean. 8)
that's the way it is. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
What do you mean "you should do something else than computer stuff from time to time"?.. woot?.. Does not compute, man. :) What are you trying to say? |
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Nightlord
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
I am having hard time imagining someone who has been around the csdb during the WDR times (I wasn't reading during the Nata times) can possibly hope that posts should not be banned or threads should not be closed etc. Back than WDR's free roaming hurt CSDB so much that many good contributers at the time left CSDB. A lot of people who I enjoyed reading here simply stopped bothering. And CSDB was in desperate need of a stricter moderation then.
Some posts and threads are plain damaging to this site/community. They increase the crap/content ratio and that drives some of the good content creators away. So it is not a simple "everyone is entitled to their oppinion thing"
Now I guess the biggest problem is a lot of people who demanded stricter moderation back then (like me) are not posting or reading too often, so the poor moderators who simply went through all that stuff and came up with the style of moderation that they apply now, are simply having less support. Because again a new generation of CSDB'ers (I am not talking about you Laxity, you are not new gen and you are a God to me but anyway) occupy the majority of the forums and they do not know what pains this site went through in the past
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: Laxity: If you really think Lemon and CSDb are "funtamentally different" you should do something else than computer stuff from time to time. They'are almost the same, it's just that people on here think they are superior because they know what LDA or FLD mean. 8)
that's the way it is.
Bingo! |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: I am having hard time imagining someone who has been around the csdb during the WDR times (I wasn't reading during the Nata times) can possibly hope that posts should not be banned or threads should not be closed etc. Back than WDR's free roaming hurt CSDB so much that many good contributers at the time left CSDB. A lot of people who I enjoyed reading here simply stopped bothering. And CSDB was in desperate need of a stricter moderation then.
Some posts and threads are plain damaging to this site/community. They increase the crap/content ratio and that drives some of the good content creators away. So it is not a simple "everyone is entitled to their oppinion thing"
Now I guess the biggest problem is a lot of people who demanded stricter moderation back then (like me) are not posting or reading too often, so the poor moderators who simply went through all that stuff and came up with the style of moderation that they apply now, are simply having less support. Because again a new generation of CSDB'ers (I am not talking about you Laxity, you are not new gen and you are a God to me but anyway) occupy the majority of the forums and they do not know what pains this site went through in the past
We all know it, and thats why I think a few offtopic posts by Oswald, or a rag-post from me, or even Rough should never be deleted. the whole wdr/natabamu crap was in a league of its own and left no other option than deletion.
we're all anarchists in a way, so live by that.
damn pussies ;) |
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Nightlord
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
yeah I did not comment on Oswald's case and I can't since I haven't read them (I find it hard to imagine Oswald posting something that left no other option than deletion but I really haven't read that thread)
My comments are towards the general "let's not delete anything as long as there is another way" issue. Sometimes people like WDR work around that for a long enough time to piss people off of CSDB. That's what I am trying to point out. It's totally cool to have anarchists here, let's just be careful about soft-and-continuous type of trolling and we should be fine. And I am pretty damn sure even as we speak now, there are more WDRs out there from the mighty past of the scene that are one google search away from coming here and teach us newbies what c64 scene is all about and how we are all very lame now and blah blah :) |
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FMan
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66 |
This "let's not delete anything" certainly doesn't apply to my posting. My lengthy account of recent goings-on got immediately deleted. I would like to know the reason and who made that decision? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: This "let's not delete anything" certainly doesn't apply to my posting. My lengthy account of recent goings-on got immediately deleted. I would like to know the reason and who made that decision?
It doesn't matter who made the decision. That post doesn't belong here. It contained some accusations, some calls for compassion and a message about quitting. I would probably have just closed the thread and left the post there, but I also agree with complete removal. I actually think it was much better solution.
If you want to quit, do so, but don't drag the whole forum into your personal conflicts. |
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FMan
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66 |
I disagree. I thought it was bigger than "personal". Where is the forum policy that bars this kind of conversation?
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote:We all know it, and thats why I think a few offtopic posts by Oswald, or a rag-post from me, or even Rough should never be deleted. the whole wdr/natabamu crap was in a league of its own and left no other option than deletion.
I agree totally... Deleting posts are for pussies.. If someone can't behave (implying: Do not conform to warnings), kick them out of here. (As were done with Nata and Wandie) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/forums/?roomid=12&topicid=46987#47000
why ? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
auto-banning seems to work =) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
May I ask why do you delete whole threads which had nothing of the no-nos in the rules section, nor there's any bitching trolling bullying in it ?
May I ask why do you delete posts asking why you did that ?
I will keep reposting this until you will ban me. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: May I ask why do you delete whole threads which had nothing of the no-nos in the rules section, nor there's any bitching trolling bullying in it ?
May I ask why do you delete posts asking why you did that ?
I will keep reposting this until you will ban me.
Oswald. Maybe some of the mods think it's better to clean the threads concerning internals of how CSDB system works (maybe because of security reasons?). This or that, I really don't think it's worth being banned for such stupid reasons. And as I said if you are ever going to get banned from here I will quit moderating job here and probably also leave the scene, delete c64.sk and stop drinking coffee and that will be all your fault you stubborn donkey! ;-)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
is it blame-it-on-oswald-day already again? =) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
creamd :) still the way moderating is done is extremely rude and unpolite. as many ppl already proposed reasons and warnings should (must!) be given. this way it feels like csdb is a mod playground, and everyone else better shut up.. worse: you dont even know why they shut you up :( |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: is it blame-it-on-oswald-day already again? =)
hope not =) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
as creamd already said, it's all your fault! =P |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: creamd :) still the way moderating is done is extremely rude and unpolite. as many ppl already proposed reasons and warnings should (must!) be given. this way it feels like csdb is a mod playground, and everyone else better shut up.. worse: you dont even know why they shut you up :(
Oswald. I know what you mean, but believe me it's the best way how to get rid of the worst problems. No post is being removed here, they are just being marked hidden for users. All moderators can see them and check what has been censored. They can be uncensored anytime. There is also log for that where we can check what is happening. Moderators are cooperating here and in 99% of cases we agree on what is being done. Of course our opinions might differ. E.g. I don't agree with Trazan's attitude towards you just because you don't have respect to the true leet scene. (but that's because I was actually having similar attitude in past and it didn't change that radically, I just learned to live with it (more or less). Having mods with different roots and ideals working together was Perff's idea and it's (IMO) a bit less efficient than having one charismatic supermod (e.g. Laxity) who would handle all the problems with charm. But it is nevertheless fairer system.
As far as talks about moderation and rules are concerned. I still think forum isn't the place for that. If anyone has doubts there is "contacting moderators" feature which opens a new thread for moderators to discuss. Perff is also checking it so if user's claims are valid, they can be accepted. I proposed one more important update of the rules which is actually written there between the lines but people seems not to know it. Moderators are always right unless other moderators (or owner of this site - Perff) disagree. That's how it works here and believe me, censoring of posts is not the only thinkg that mods do. It's a lot of other editing work that is invisible and unappreciated. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
indeed. if i had spent the time i spent on cleaning up database mess last nite on censoring postings instead.... the forum would be very empty =D |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
maybe you have mixed up forum and database mess ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
no not really, i just care more about the database :) |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 428 |
i can't post my true emotions 'bout the moderation otherwise this entry will "get moderated"... |
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The Dark Prince
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 10 |
Quoting CreaMDAs far as talks about moderation and rules are concerned. I still think forum isn't the place for that.
This is a worrying thing to see. Forums are kind of designed for group discussions over issues affecting an entire site. More to the point it gives you a discussion you can then refer to when someone else asks the same thing.
Also, since you're the first to defend the transparency of the moderation process, you should be the first to defend, (yes, defend) the transparency of discussion of the moderating process.
Complaining, suggesting or even just discussion moderation with the mods via PM is a very one sided and very unfairly weighted in favour of the mods. Suggesting this is a fair replacement for open discussion in a forum (the very word evolves from open discussion in greek times) saddens me.
Take the following example:
Forum member "O" suggests something. Forum Mod "G" does like forum member "O" (and the simple fact is, people don't like each other, to argue otherwise is just stupid), and politely tells him to go and stuff his head up a dead bears arse. And it ends there. "O" gets pissed off (and rightly so), and a lot of other members might have missed out on hearing an idea that interests them. Not to mention the increased workload when someone else mentions it (although they will almost certainly get more attention).
That is just a stupid and shit way of handling things and is very us-and-them with the mods placed firmly in the seat of the gods. What if what member "O" had said was something a lot of other people would agree with but hadn't thought of? What if moderator "G" was the only one active at the time when "O" sent the message and didn't feel that "O"s idea was important enough to relay to the other mods.
I'm much of an observer only here, I have little to contribute to other threads so I don't. But this is important, stop dismissing the moderation as "It's working and don't fucking question it bitches.", because the moment you do that, it clearly isn't.
Oh, and also please learn the meaning behind the phrase 'security through obscurity' before arguing that the internals of the database should not be openly discussed. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:
What if what member "O" had said was something a lot of other people would agree with but hadn't thought of? What if moderator "G" was the only one active at the time when "O" sent the message and didn't feel that "O"s idea was important enough to relay to the other mods.
post into the "message to moderators" thread, it can (and will) be read by all moderators. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: Quote:
What if what member "O" had said was something a lot of other people would agree with but hadn't thought of? What if moderator "G" was the only one active at the time when "O" sent the message and didn't feel that "O"s idea was important enough to relay to the other mods.
post into the "message to moderators" thread, it can (and will) be read by all moderators.
the dark prince is right, even in *this* thread posts got deleted left and right.
the mods clearly are not understanding that they are so doing the wrong thing. over and over again. |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
True, posts were removed from this thread:
2 made by moderators, regarding the Autoban of Groepaz for altering all too much data in short time - securitytrigger.
One was made by Oswald, asking why we removed the thread ABOUT why Groepaz was removed. Problem solved, discussion closed for that thread.
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: True, posts were removed from this thread:
2 made by moderators, regarding the Autoban of Groepaz for altering all too much data in short time - securitytrigger.
One was made by Oswald, asking why we removed the thread ABOUT why Groepaz was removed. Problem solved, discussion closed for that thread.
so when a discussion is closed, all relevant posts get deleted.
you're still not making any sense.
anyway, I'm getting pretty tired of discussing this, feels like I'm talking to a wall.
this is a *forum*, a place for *discussion*, not some page where some self appointed moderators can delete posts at will. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
What Burglar said.
In my opinion posts and comments should ONLY be deleted when the content is (grossly) offensive.
Sure, some people use big/harsh words to express themselves but keep in mind we're talking about one big collection of ego's (aka the scene).
Mods should see through that.
When a thread becomes off-topic in some certain way, it is the task of the moderator to get the thread on-topic again.
This is NOT done by deleting posts.
The current moderation-policy (if you can call it that way) spoils the whole laid-back atmosphere and my drive to participate.
Also, will this post be deleted because somebody already said the same in this thread?
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: Quoting CreaMDAs far as talks about moderation and rules are concerned. I still think forum isn't the place for that.
This is a worrying thing to see. Forums are kind of designed for group discussions over issues affecting an entire site. More to the point it gives you a discussion you can then refer to when someone else asks the same thing.
Also, since you're the first to defend the transparency of the moderation process, you should be the first to defend, (yes, defend) the transparency of discussion of the moderating process.
Complaining, suggesting or even just discussion moderation with the mods via PM is a very one sided and very unfairly weighted in favour of the mods. Suggesting this is a fair replacement for open discussion in a forum (the very word evolves from open discussion in greek times) saddens me.
Take the following example:
Forum member "O" suggests something. Forum Mod "G" does like forum member "O" (and the simple fact is, people don't like each other, to argue otherwise is just stupid), and politely tells him to go and stuff his head up a dead bears arse. And it ends there. "O" gets pissed off (and rightly so), and a lot of other members might have missed out on hearing an idea that interests them. Not to mention the increased workload when someone else mentions it (although they will almost certainly get more attention).
That is just a stupid and shit way of handling things and is very us-and-them with the mods placed firmly in the seat of the gods. What if what member "O" had said was something a lot of other people would agree with but hadn't thought of? What if moderator "G" was the only one active at the time when "O" sent the message and didn't feel that "O"s idea was important enough to relay to the other mods.
I'm much of an observer only here, I have little to contribute to other threads so I don't. But this is important, stop dismissing the moderation as "It's working and don't fucking question it bitches.", because the moment you do that, it clearly isn't.
Oh, and also please learn the meaning behind the phrase 'security through obscurity' before arguing that the internals of the database should not be openly discussed.
"message to moderators" goes to all moderators. Moderators watch over moderators. Moderators come from different backgrounds to prevent moderation biased towards particular scene (legal vs illegal) Perff watches over moderators.
Your example is based on wrong premise.
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: Quoting CreaMDAs far as talks about moderation and rules are concerned. I still think forum isn't the place for that.
This is a worrying thing to see. Forums are kind of designed for group discussions over issues affecting an entire site. More to the point it gives you a discussion you can then refer to when someone else asks the same thing.
Also, since you're the first to defend the transparency of the moderation process, you should be the first to defend, (yes, defend) the transparency of discussion of the moderating process.
Complaining, suggesting or even just discussion moderation with the mods via PM is a very one sided and very unfairly weighted in favour of the mods. Suggesting this is a fair replacement for open discussion in a forum (the very word evolves from open discussion in greek times) saddens me.
Take the following example:
Forum member "O" suggests something. Forum Mod "G" does like forum member "O" (and the simple fact is, people don't like each other, to argue otherwise is just stupid), and politely tells him to go and stuff his head up a dead bears arse. And it ends there. "O" gets pissed off (and rightly so), and a lot of other members might have missed out on hearing an idea that interests them. Not to mention the increased workload when someone else mentions it (although they will almost certainly get more attention).
That is just a stupid and shit way of handling things and is very us-and-them with the mods placed firmly in the seat of the gods. What if what member "O" had said was something a lot of other people would agree with but hadn't thought of? What if moderator "G" was the only one active at the time when "O" sent the message and didn't feel that "O"s idea was important enough to relay to the other mods.
I'm much of an observer only here, I have little to contribute to other threads so I don't. But this is important, stop dismissing the moderation as "It's working and don't fucking question it bitches.", because the moment you do that, it clearly isn't.
Oh, and also please learn the meaning behind the phrase 'security through obscurity' before arguing that the internals of the database should not be openly discussed.
I couldn't agree more!.. Well put. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
according to a moderator there are many people in favor of deleting posts a lot, but yet, I practically never see them post here.
it's a bit hard to discuss proper moderation if the big group of delete-happy users don't state their arguments here and join in on the discussion.
all I've seen is Oswald saying that if his posts get deleted, others should be deleted too. which, imo, is a negative argument. if you didnt delete oswald posts in the first place, he wouldn't cry about other posts, correct? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
I expected this will happen and I think I've told that cleary enough to Perff in chats over ICQ even before he implemented moderation. The public discussion about how moderation, moderators, moderated, removed, edited posts etc. is another way of how forum can be abused. Some people will never stop finding ways how to go around the rules and doubt everything. That is the way it is.
Sincerely, I would rather like if Perff had grown to evil bitch and made moderation all himself, but it won't happen anytime soon. Moderation team consists of people with various motivation and background. With various experiecne and various level of assertivity. In my case it's not the first site I'm moderating but it certainly the worst moderated site I've ever seen. Too much moderators. Too many direct involvement. Moderators taking sides in the problem. It's because moderators raised from the users. We are one of you. And that is the problem. ;-) Everyone thinks that we can still continue discussions with all those former users who are now mods. We can argue with them, giving better arguments, raise questions, make judgements and conclusions. Yes. You some user are sure wiser than mods. So they can and probably will succesfully kick some serious moderator butt everytime they will have chance...
Do you now understand why I think that moderation shouldn't be discussed? Of course you are right. Moderators shouldn't be too biased towards their prefferences. But that's why there are moderators coming from different backgroundds. We watch each other. And Perff (charismatic evil admin in the training and future sole moderator of this site) sees evertyhing what we do too.
I'm really not afraid of discussing moderation and censorship of posts with anyone here. Yes it will probably sometimes happen. But try to understand that when some dumbass will complaint about his post (e.g. some stupid insults to Laxity) being censored. I will censor his thread and don't even bother to contact him. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: according to a moderator there are many people in favor of deleting posts a lot, but yet, I practically never see them post here.
it's a bit hard to discuss proper moderation if the big group of delete-happy users don't state their arguments here and join in on the discussion.
all I've seen is Oswald saying that if his posts get deleted, others should be deleted too. which, imo, is a negative argument. if you didnt delete oswald posts in the first place, he wouldn't cry about other posts, correct?
Good point. Moderation shouldn't be strict. Moderators shoudln't be forced to keep the restrictive rules 100%. They need freedom to choose which post to censor according to their experience and good will. They also need to have free choice whenever there is not exact rule about some problem. Fman's post for example. It wasn't dirrect attack towards other users, but it had some general accusations of csdb users that were based on subjective experience with the users (over IRC) and that doesn't belong to public forum at all. Important about this is. That I didn't lock that thread, nor I didn't censor that post. But I agree with the moderators who did it based on reasons I said above. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: Good point. Moderation shouldn't be strict. Moderators shoudln't be forced to keep the restrictive rules 100%. They need freedom to choose which post to censor according to their experience and good will. They also need to have free choice whenever there is not exact rule about some problem. Fman's post for example. It wasn't dirrect attack towards other users, but it had some general accusations of csdb users that were based on subjective experience with the users (over IRC) and that doesn't belong to public forum at all. Important about this is. That I didn't lock that thread, nor I didn't censor that post. But I agree with the moderators who did it based on reasons I said above.
all I see is that the moderating team is making bad decisions over and over again. and now you want "freedom to choose which post to censor". oh please.
when the mods start to act like real moderators, instead of some delete-happy bunch not willing to explain their ways and not giving any arguments on the things Laxity, The Dark Prince and me have raised, you should all be fired.
we're not in North Korea, you know. who the hell made you dictator? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: all I see is that the moderating team is making bad decisions over and over again. and now you want "freedom to choose which post to censor". oh please.
when the mods start to act like real moderators, instead of some delete-happy bunch not willing to explain their ways and not giving any arguments on the things Laxity, The Dark Prince and me have raised, you should all be fired.
we're not in North Korea, you know. who the hell made you dictator?
;-)
Perff made me a dic...eee... moderator.
So you want to fire me? No problem feel free to ask me to quit. I'll do that.
I don't have problem with saying what I think and how things should be done. It's not a theory. All my thoughts raise from my praxe from sites which have thousands of users and hundreds of posts a day. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Again, what Burglar said.
Also putting yourself in some kind of victim-role ("yes, we're mods and sceners too but we have to moderate naughty people, sorry") doesn't do good either.
Being a mod AND a scener is a good thing. You should know how a scener thinks and does and you, as moderators, should understand that and tune your moderation to it.
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: ;-)
Perff made me a dic...eee... moderator.
So you want to fire me? No problem feel free to ask me to quit. I'll do that.
I don't have problem with saying what I think and how things should be done. It's not a theory. All my thoughts raise from my praxe from sites which have thousands of users and hundreds of posts a day.
and yet, you still didn't respond to any of my arguments. you choose to keep hiding behind "oh but I've been a moderator at other sites, so I always know the right thing".
I'm sorry, but you'll have to do better than that, so far I've only seen the following responses:
- I was/am a moderator at another site, so I rock and I always know whats best.
- Evaluating a moderation-team is useless.
- We delete everything we want, but we do not explain ourselves.
I have not seen a single accurate argument coming from any of the moderators. This behavior will eventually result in a division between users and moderators.
This is not Birma/Myanmar, guys. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: and yet, you still didn't respond to any of my arguments. you choose to keep hiding behind "oh but I've been a moderator at other sites, so I always know the right thing".
I'm sorry, but you'll have to do better than that, so far I've only seen the following responses:
- I was/am a moderator at another site, so I rock and I always know whats best.
- Evaluating a moderation-team is useless.
- We delete everything we want, but we do not explain ourselves.
I have not seen a single accurate argument coming from any of the moderators. This behavior will eventually result in a division between users and moderators.
This is not Birma/Myanmar, guys.
I've mentioned / explained things about internal organisation of moderator team that you have chosen not to mention and ignore. It seems that you are also picking whatever you consider important for your argument.
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
There might be problems involved with the moderation, I dunno. Maybe they are a little too picky and I can agree that it feels a little odd sometimes to find that some post is removed, making it a bit hard to follow the discussion as whole, and such things.
BUT(T), I must say that this place has become a little more sane and calm since moderation was introduced. In any case I prefer the current order to the fucked up chaos before the holy moderators hit this place. I don't see anyone being threatened by the moderators really. Just add good shit, discuss on-topic stuff in the forums (and by that I mean c64-related rather than who-killed-who-and-who-got-the-biggest-cru-stuff) and everything is fine. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: I've mentioned / explained things about internal organisation of moderator team that you have chosen not to mention and ignore. It seems that you are also picking whatever you consider important for your argument.
ok, I'll add this then:
- we only discuss stuff internally, we do not say what we are discussing and we don't share the conclusions of those internal discussions either.
happy now?
this is not Iran, you know. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: ok, I'll add this then:
- we only discuss stuff internally, we do not say what we are discussing and we don't share the conclusions of those internal discussions either.
happy now?
this is not Iran, you know.
;-)
Yes I agree now. It now sounds much more reasonable but to be 100% sure that you get it, let me rephrase it completely:
1. Perff is an Admin and as he realised that he doesn't have enough insight to solve some peculiarities of social interactions wisely (like a king Solomon) so he decided that he needs someone who will be able to get that responsibility on their shoulders.
2. He asked people he trusted to nominate the ppl that could be good mods. The team was formed of people coming from "illegal" and "legal" scene, and also from enthusiastic users that aren't directly involved in any of the scenes. This was done to assure that moderators will keep an eye on fairness of decisions.
3. He gave the mod team some of his power and the mod team started to work and make many suggestions to make system better (log of user activites, log of edits, log of deletes, log of what has been censored with reason (so moderators will see what, who and why) moderator voted new user registration approval, etc. etc. etc.
thus
- Moderators watch moderators and any of the moves can be corrected, if necessary.
- Perff watch moderators.
Moderators doesn't have natural authority here. It's a group of chosen people to do the unpopular job of moderation and also a lot of unappreciated backstage work. It's not like on your (or mine) site, Burglar, where you are the only sole charismatic moderator of everything and the one who has biggest cock and can put thumb on anyone anytime (if he wants, but he usually doesn't need to). What you do here is something that you wouldn't allow on your site. I wonder how would the debate look if someone started to mock you up on your site. I think you would either ignore him or shut his mouth up. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: ;-)
Yes I agree now. It now sounds much more reasonable but to be 100% sure that you get it, let me rephrase it completely:
1. Perff is an Admin and as he realised that he doesn't have enough insight to solve some peculiarities of social interactions wisely (like a king Solomon) so he decided that he needs someone who will be able to get that responsibility on their shoulders.
2. He asked people he trusted to nominate the ppl that could be good mods. The team was formed of people coming from "illegal" and "legal" scene, and also from enthusiastic users that aren't directly involved in any of the scenes. This was done to assure that moderators will keep an eye on fairness of decisions.
3. He gave the mod team some of his power and the mod team started to work and make many suggestions to make system better (log of user activites, log of edits, log of deletes, log of what has been censored with reason (so moderators will see what, who and why) moderator voted new user registration approval, etc. etc. etc.
thus
- Moderators watch moderators and any of the moves can be corrected, if necessary.
- Perff watch moderators.
Moderators doesn't have natural authority here. It's a group of chosen people to do the unpopular job of moderation and also a lot of unappreciated backstage work. It's not like on your (or mine) site, Burglar, where you are the only sole charismatic moderator of everything and the one who has biggest cock and can put thumb on anyone anytime (if he wants, but he usually doesn't need to). What you do here is something that you wouldn't allow on your site. I wonder how would the debate look if someone started to mock you up on your site. I think you would either ignore him or shut his mouth up.
1,2,3: sure, completely understand that, hell, I even agree!
The problem is that the moderators do not exercise their new found power properly: posts get deleted without warning and without explanation + posts get deleted that shouldn't be deleted in the first place.
And sure, I'd love to compare SH to CSDB, but sadly that's impossible as they serve completely different goals. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
exactly. how hard it would be to do it something like this:
- warn
- delete+ explanation
+ reduced trigger happyness
- closed topics should not be deleted. never.
- topics should be only closed when they go into offtopic bitching or similar cases, but for god's sake let topics be a nice hangout for chit chat.
and lastly, why a group of ppl elected by Perff's trusted ppl should decide how is moderation done ? how about a public voting about how WE would like? moderation is for the community, and not the community is for the moderators. right ?
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
I left Lemon because the moderators were deleting posts *they didnt agree with personally*, as opposed to deleting posts that violated the usage policy.
I hope the same thing doesnt occur here. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: 1,2,3: sure, completely understand that, hell, I even agree!
The problem is that the moderators do not exercise their new found power properly: posts get deleted without warning and without explanation + posts get deleted that shouldn't be deleted in the first place.
And sure, I'd love to compare SH to CSDB, but sadly that's impossible as they serve completely different goals.
Ok. Yes I admit that maybe some posts could stay (some mods are a bit more 'triggerhappy' than others), but there is "Your reason?" feauture in the log so when user raise complaint about particular post we can judge whether it was right or wrong to censor it. I think it is ok if we moderators get contacted about the problematic post through "Userpage -> Contact moderators". This starts a new thread in moderators forum and everyone, including Perff can decide.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
bah, moderation should be public. you must take responsibility for the posts you delete, and doing that in a hidden forum is not exactly like taking any responsibilty. publicity and free media is one of the most important thing in every democracy. it is too easy to hide if a mod is too triggerhappy on this or that person or does anything unacceptable. which brings me back to why warnings end explanations are a must. mods shouldnt control themselfes, but the community should control them which brings me to democracy again. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: bah, moderation should be public. you must take responsibility for the posts you delete, and doing that in a hidden forum is not exactly like taking any responsibilty. publicity and free media is one of the most important thing in every democracy. it is too easy to hide if a mod is too triggerhappy on this or that person or does anything unacceptable. which brings me back to why warnings end explanations are a must. mods shouldnt control themselfes, but the community should control them which brings me to democracy again.
Oswald. You are individual. You are upset on some mod who moderated some of your posts. You are now stating your indivudual claims based on your indivudual experience with the moderation here. Some of your claims I find applicable some I don't find applicable. As well as some of my ideas are accepted and some aren't. We aren't the whole community though.
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
While we're on about the whole transparent moderation thingy, im awfully curious as to what's the story behind this
post.
I think it would be a good idea if we had something like a "moderator blog" where the latest activities of the moderators can observed. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:
While we're on about the whole transparent moderation thingy, im awfully curious as to what's the story behind this post.
ask the one who posted it. it's sorted out now anyhow
Quote:
I think it would be a good idea if we had something like a "moderator blog" where the latest activities of the moderators can observed.
you don't want that, trust me. despite what some people think, moderators do a lot of boring work on the database, and you really wouldn't want to read a log of that. |
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wreg
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679 |
it should not be the users who watch the moderators, this will only lead to more flaming, especially towards single persons and not the moderators-team
if you find your censored post was not inflicting with some rule or good taste or something like this, just drop us a line @ 'message to moderators' and we WILL take care of your request (internally that is)
and i guess it will result in some message to the person who is asking |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Basically it sounds very much like "Dont bother us with your pesky questions. We are the moderators and what we decide is right".
Yes, threads and posts should be closed / deleted if they get to far out of hand.
But the community should be able to see why, a simple "Topic closed" with all posts deleted is a very unsatisfying situation.
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wreg
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679 |
stainless steel, did you read the second paragraph of my post or which post are you refering to?
basically it sounds like: no public discussion, we are right in the first place, but that can of course be revised later cause we make mistakes (like everyone does i think) |
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FMan
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66 |
This is actually worse than a proprietary forum, from which you will get banned, if you criticize the owner company's product. Random deletion makes in my opinion the moderators look less than good, while they have simultaneously allowed certain persons to run rampant on the forums for ages.
The underlying reason is of course the fact that there are two sets of rules: one for those considered elite, and another set for the rest of us. No matter what people from the first group do or say, follows no deletion but high votes. I have defended CSDb for years, but I won't anymore. This is bad, m'kay?
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
wreg:
I read it all right, but it wasn't conclusive.
For me at least.
You say if anyone feels unfairly treated by the moderators, he should seek contact to them. well, thats fine and dandy.
But what I'm asking for is to have more insight into the moderation process as a bystander.
If a thread gets closed, I would like to see what the reason was and be able to read the post that caused the closing.
How should other Users know where "the line" is crossed if you rigorously delete the examples they could learn from.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: This is actually worse than a proprietary forum, from which you will get banned, if you criticize the owner company's product. Random deletion makes in my opinion the moderators look less than good, while they have simultaneously allowed certain persons to run rampant on the forums for ages.
The underlying reason is of course the fact that there are two sets of rules: one for those considered elite, and another set for the rest of us. No matter what people from the first group do or say, follows no deletion but high votes. I have defended CSDb for years, but I won't anymore. This is bad, m'kay?
I would like to see examples. Provide links please. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote:How should other Users know where "the line" is crossed if you rigorously delete the examples they could learn from.
100 PTS! ;-) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
one thing is crystal clear here: what we have here is a moderators vs community debate. I see not a single non mod person against these (same in the poll thread)
- warning before deleting a forum post
- explanation on deleting a forum post (or just about anything)
- less agressive topic closings
the conclusion is to realise the idea of a moderation thread, where each action would be explained. this thread could be moderated agressively or make only mods be able to post into it, so moderator flaming is prevented.
I guess its about time for Perff to share his views on this matter. Obviously there's a push from the community. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: I would like to see examples. Provide links please.
go through my posts that got deleted.
from memory:
- the first sin I committed was making a joke about the topic theme. post deleted. no explanation even after various ppl asking for it. for the record:I havent reacted.
- burglar allowed to call me crappy coder, why I am not allowed to bash on groepaz with "go go c64 ku klux klan" when he wants to delete chris huelsbeck for being non scener. I'D call this a selective troll filter.
- everyone is allowed to blabble offtopic in the user comments, while mine gots deleted immediately. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: Oswald. You are individual. You are upset on some mod who moderated some of your posts. You are now stating your indivudual claims based on your indivudual experience with the moderation here. Some of your claims I find applicable some I don't find applicable. As well as some of my ideas are accepted and some aren't. We aren't the whole community though.
Roman, yes I am an individual :) so are everyone else complaining about moderation, each of them are stating their individual claims on their individual experiences of the moderation here. Also as an individual I can only judge things based on my individual experiences. Do you have something against this?:) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: one thing is crystal clear here: what we have here is a moderators vs community debate. I see not a single non mod person against these (same in the poll thread)
- warning before deleting a forum post
- explanation on deleting a forum post (or just about anything)
- less agressive topic closings
the conclusion is to realise the idea of a moderation thread, where each action would be explained. this thread could be moderated agressively or make only mods be able to post into it, so moderator flaming is prevented.
I guess its about time for Perff to share his views on this matter. Obviously there's a push from the community.
I don't think that you can draw conclusions after having so few responses.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: Roman, yes I am an individual :) so are everyone else complaining about moderation, each of them are stating their individual claims on their individual experiences of the moderation here. Also as an individual I can only judge things based on my individual experiences. Do you have something against this?:)
Yes. The fact that you and few other are the loudest ones against the way how it is moderated here doesn't mean that rest of the users share your opinion. A bit lame trasnlation of a proverb follows: "The goose that was hit is gaggling." ;-) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting CreaMD100 PTS! ;-)
For what ?
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: Quoting CreaMD100 PTS! ;-)
For what ?
For good point that I quoted above. |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
what people seem to forget is that this is a hobby for everyone here, even the moderators. Posting an explanation after deleting a post/oneliner/comment will cost them a whole lot more time. and that would suck for them.
stop whining, this place has been better since they started. If you have a problem, contact them, all these guys a pretty normal people who can respond to a question or comment.
Would you like to spend everyday moderating this site for a couple of hours because some of the people here make a mess or insult people, or doing whatever.
'oh my oh my, my post is deleted, they have it in for me, and only me'. All this is taken so personal here, i just dont get it that after all these years everybody still behaves like the teenage kids we were when were actually starting out.
There are a few people in this thread that actually try to debate this, but too many people here hold grudges because one or a couple of their posts has been removed.
But seeing that this is causing such a stir, perhaps Perff can make a function where a message is immediatly automatically send to the user after something is deleted.
But please, if this ever happens, dont start bitching about 'too short' of an explanation.
ah well... my boredom is over so i will get out of your hairs. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
there is hardly anything to moderate here. check the daily list of usercomments and forum posts. takes about 10 minutes to read all the new posts daily. I dont see it would be too much work for a handful of moderators.
"If you have a problem, contact them, all these guys a pretty normal people who can respond to a question or comment. "
despite asked we still dont know why 2 totally neutral threads were closed and whiped from all posts.
"too many people here hold grudges because one or a couple of their posts has been removed."
me and fman ? why is that too many? you set it up like there would be hundreds of posts to moderate, and tens of ppl would flame the mods for it. this is not the case. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: there is hardly anything to moderate here. check the daily list of usercomments and forum posts. takes about 10 minutes to read all the new posts daily. I dont see it would be too much work for a handful of moderators.
"If you have a problem, contact them, all these guys a pretty normal people who can respond to a question or comment. "
despite asked we still dont know why 2 totally neutral threads were closed and whiped from all posts.
"too many people here hold grudges because one or a couple of their posts has been removed."
me and fman ? why is that too many? you set it up like there would be hundreds of posts to moderate, and tens of ppl would flame the mods for it. this is not the case.
Your under and over estimates are laughable.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:
Your under and over estimates are laughable.
<rant>
totally. infact, hearing this kind of stuff who <quote>doesn't want to help</quote> but who instead supports controversial claims often seemingly only to stir the shit some more doesn't make me wanna laugh at all. it makes me wanna hit my screen with a hammer.
and to give the "oh oh damn dictator mods, this isn't <insert favourite dictatorship country>" whiners something to think:
look at the amount of accounts (users) here on csdb. then look at how many people complain here, or even in all recent related threads. now if this would be a true democratic process and a reasonable percentage of the users would be involved into a decision, what would be the "weight" of your individual voice?
also some people seem to have little idea how forums are usually maintained. i've been on a few, and none of them would tolerate challanging the moderators, rules, whatever or even a discussion about it like it has been done here.
and learn to deal with opinions that do not match yours. do not mix up this whole discussion with the fight for freeedom in <your favourite dictatorship country>, because it really isn't.
that said, i am going to spend some more irrelevant hours on the database now. and obviously while i am at it, i will also delete some stuff from arbitrary users, just because i think they are not elite. or maybe i could censor some more comments from someone just for him beeing hungarian. or i delete some more stuff for the database for beeing lame newschool crap.
because i am an elitist fascist bastard gestapo moderator.
live with it, punks.
</rant>
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
"infact, hearing this kind of stuff ... makes me wanna hit my screen with a hammer."
"learn to deal with opinions that do not match yours. "
you start it. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
somehow i get the feeling that you mix up dealing with different opinions with agreeing with them. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
100% agreement to Groepaz.
I get the impression that some c64 people are more and more taking stuff for granted, and when stuff doesn't fit their expectations perfectly you'll hear a lot of whining. I bit sad to see in a movement that was once characterized by a "do it yourself" attitude. Luckily this doesn't apply to everyone. Thumbs up to the non-whiners.
Arguments like "why is scener X allowed to rant on the forums while I am not" is just so incredibly... yeah.. you know.
Let's return to the spirit of Laxitys original post in this thread, or something. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting groepazbecause i am an elitist fascist bastard gestapo moderator.
We knew it all along.
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Ok, I'm sitting here doing some nitpicking, and I thought:
Wouldn't it be nice if the moderator sign under the moderators nicks weren't visible, unless you guys are actually moderating. It's rather distracting and I've been confused more than once if you were talking as moderators or individuals. Might seem like a stupid thing, but I bet it will give the impression that users and mods aren't so far apart, and there'd be no doubts as to when you speak as yourselves and when you don't.
Is that a bad idea?.. Just thinking out loud!.. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
mmmmh, somehow that sounds as if you are implying that users are too stupid to think for themselves =P
and it won't make me a less elitist fascist moderator bastard either =P |
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wreg
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679 |
i like 'laxitys' idea, i already though about that when starting to post in threads like these :-)
cause sometimes my opinion differs from the one the mod-team has ;-)
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: i like 'laxitys' idea, i already though about that when starting to post in threads like these :-)
cause sometimes my opinion differs from the one the mod-team has ;-)
I also don't think it is necessary to have " moderator sign "directly under the nickname. It was added only lately and I didn't notice anyone from mods asking for this. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
actually i asked for it, i'm used to that from pretty much any other forum (both phpBB and BurningBoard do it) :=) |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
I, for one, welcome our new moderating overloards. This place really is a lot nicer now. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: mmmmh, somehow that sounds as if you are implying that users are too stupid to think for themselves =P
and it won't make me a less elitist fascist moderator bastard either =P
Maybe I'm getting old or something (which is probably true), but did I really imply that users are stupid?..
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote:what people seem to forget is that this is a hobby for everyone here, even the moderators. Posting an explanation after deleting a post/oneliner/comment will cost them a whole lot more time. and that would suck for them.
well, the point is that most of us don't see a reason to delete posts most of the time. I know that moderators have been very eager to delete posts lately, which means they are the cause themselves to explanations.
having moderators think of an explanation will hopefully make the trigger-happy-mod think twice and possibly not delete the post.
it might be good to know how many posts the moderators delete on a daily basis. I bet it a averages < 0.25 (deleting multiple wdr-spam posts count as 3)
also, not only the mods are contributing to csdb in their spare time, we all do that.
PS: Oswald, for the love of God, you still don't understand that my crappy coder remark was a joke? I was telling a newbie that he shouldn't worry about his coding skills as one of the best coders on c64 ever was able to optimize his code. I only tried to explain that in a humorous way. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: I, for one, welcome our new moderating overloards. This place really is a lot nicer now.
I have to say, I also really respect the time and effort the mods are putting into csdb. If only they tried to work a bit more with us than against us.
We're all arguing for the same goal. A good, accurate and fun c64 scene database. (don't forget the fucking fun!) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
btw, is it really a good idea that now mods can edit anyone's posts? will changes like that be logged? |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
bad idea, mods shouldnt have admin rights, and I experienced once in the past that such options are abused (on another forum). |
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wreg
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679 |
<Post edited by wreg on 5/10-2007 03:21>
if you feel, that such options are abused by anyone of us, just leave a nice 'message to the moderators' :-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote: bad idea, mods shouldnt have admin rights, and I experienced once in the past that such options are abused (on another forum).
pfff, it's the perfect weapon for elitist fascist bastard gestapo moderators! more features like that coming up! |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Guess I will have to buy the database off from Perff and become admin. |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1665 |
Quote: btw, is it really a good idea that now mods can edit anyone's posts? will changes like that be logged?
Changes WILL be logged.
Thats the main difference between moderators and admins. It might seem that mods can do as much as admins (me), but they can't, and they have to write why they do what they do, and all this will be logged. All mods can then see what the other mods did and why. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
excellent. now one more wish, when posting to a forum would it be possible to show in top of the "posting" window the last post, so one doesnt have to scroll down to see what is he replying to ? :) even better would be a "reply to this post" link. and then in the final post a link also back to the post that was replied to ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
other forums (phpbb and burningboard) show the thread in reverse order when you are writing your reply so you don't have to scroll down a lot.... |
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FMan
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66 |
Quote: Good point. Moderation shouldn't be strict. Moderators shoudln't be forced to keep the restrictive rules 100%. They need freedom to choose which post to censor according to their experience and good will. They also need to have free choice whenever there is not exact rule about some problem. Fman's post for example. It wasn't dirrect attack towards other users, but it had some general accusations of csdb users that were based on subjective experience with the users (over IRC) and that doesn't belong to public forum at all. Important about this is. That I didn't lock that thread, nor I didn't censor that post. But I agree with the moderators who did it based on reasons I said above.
Why do you insist on calling them "accusations"? I already stated they were facts. Of course, now no-one can check what I said because you pre-empted that possibility. Is it proper moderator behavior, btw, to say someone is laughable?
Also, why can't you answer the simple question who it was? Why do the CSDb moderators feel the need to hide behind a vale of anonymity? Do you think that increases the users' trust in your actions? Probably not. Maybe the opposite.
> stop whining
> everybody still behaves like the teenage kids we were
> too many people here hold grudges
What exactly were you trying to accomplish with this post? Your writing is extremely rude and disrespectful. A person under whose handle it says "administrator" writing a message in this style erodes the little remaining believability there is on this system.
Groepaz is more the one who is holding a personal grudge and moderating from that perspective, and that's very dangerous. Fact remains, 4 months later, I have not received information as to who deleted my message and why. The moderation in this forum is not transparent!
There aren't that many users on the forums. The reason why there aren't more people complaining is that many people simply opt not to come here in the first place, or choose to stay away. Silence does not necessarily indicate that everybody else is happy with your ways.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
I have contacted the moderators on our latest issue with groepaz. no reply. hello? anyone there? hello ? is that function called nil? have you talked that over? will this continue?
it feels nothing was considered from what was suggested here:
- no friendly moderation
- instead: editing a post to ridicule a user (punishing trolling with trolling? hello?)
- still no warnings
- posts are just wanishing without any sign
- rubber rules, some shit are left alone (posted by mods) some not
- trolling on users: wreg vs joe
- no feedback
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cba
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 932 |
Hi Oswald,
How did you contact the moderators ?, I didn't see anything
about this.
For now it seems you have a problem just with groepaz, a bit
silly than to say that we are all unfriendly.
I don't really see your problem, what's wrong the moderation here ?,
sure that groepaz did an edit of a post was wrong, but hey we're all making mistakes and I can also understand him because you keep on making useless threads here and add a lot of unneeded replies.
So before complaining first think a bit about your own behavior here.
What do you suggest ? csdb without mods ?, without rules ?
don't think that will really work out fine.
Why don't you join the moderator team and show us how it's
done the proper way ?
Otherwhiles stop focusing on the forum and just do like most
of us, enter old data about the C64, and help preserve history.
Personally if it was up to me, I would have deleted the
whole forum to go with CSDB (including the voting system :-) )
Niels
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
"I don't really see your problem"
then forget it.
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Mason
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 459 |
I dont understand why you connect to this page at all? If you dont like the way its moderated and the things happening here then dont use the page.
Also I dont see a problem with the moderators. I have seen you posted bogus topics and attacked people. Be happy Im not mod as I would have given a warning and the deleted/blocked the account.
Oh well! I was known as an asshole when I was moderator. |
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cba
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 932 |
Quote: "I don't really see your problem"
then forget it.
Great and useful reply, do yourself a favor and just stop coming here please.
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Did Barracuda aka Nata hack Oswald's account? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: Great and useful reply, do yourself a favor and just stop coming here please.
it doesnt worths to bother when you "really dont see what my problem is" and speaking of groepaz you say " everyone makes mistakes", speaking of me "you should think about your behaviour first". you have the picture already in your mind. lets lean back and see how groepaz will bully off me this page. enjoy the show.
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cba
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 932 |
I didn't follow all the shit that's been going on between you and groepaz , both of you should just wise up and act normal if
possible.
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Well, Groepaz publically admitted that the editing of your post was mistake. That's a plus point for him. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Yes Oswald, WTF IS your problem? Refusing to explain it doesn't exactly help. Apart from you starting a dozen trolling threads this place seems to be running quite smoothly.
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