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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 627 |
Intro Compos - and Size Coding
I wanted to bring this topic up again.. as I know it was discussed before between TheRyk, Krill, Jammer, GPZ and others.
Size-limited intro compos. WHY are they restricted to limited RAM?
An intro compo, for me, shouldn’t be about pretending that C64 has limited memory. Intros should really just be appropriately sized “hey, we cracked this, we’re awesome, hello to our friends!” things to impress.
A 1k intro would normally be linked to a <4k game.. so if it chose to expand to 48k, but only added 1k or less to the file size, that would be fine. In the real world. The person playing the cracked game really doesn’t care less what the intro’s doing. It’s just an intro.
The argument that “we’re turning an intro compo into a compressed demo compo” seems backward. That’s not it at all. By adding the extra restrictions, you’re actually saying it’s not an intro compo at all - it’s now a size-coding compo.
My 2c.
Ps. Recent discussion on this was here: https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=12&topicid=158496&showallposts=1 |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Is there anything stopping someone who is unhappy with the rules from making their own "intro" compo with their own set of rules? |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 627 |
Quote: Is there anything stopping someone who is unhappy with the rules from making their own "intro" compo with their own set of rules?
Of course not :-) .. but The Ryk -did- start with the rules how I suggest to begin with .. but then bowed to community pressure.
The CSDb Intro Compo is also annual, well managed and supported so I don’t think another is needed as it would just dilute the awesomeness - or possibly just fail miserably… |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Presumably because he changed the rules in the first place? If it's supposed to be an annual thing and a continuation of Didi's original competition, right down to using the exact same name for the compo, I'd just stick with Didi's rules, they seemed to be pretty straight forward, easy to understand, easy to check, and yielded some amazing intros.
Every 4k demo compo I've looked at so far has no runtime restrictions, only the file size counts. So clearly there are a lot of other opportunities for people who don't want to deal with the sort of restrictions traditionally associated with the annual intro competition. Why not go make something for one of those compos, instead of getting rid of the one competition that has a different rule? Or make your own intro compo with a different name, and blackjack, and hookers.
If the annual intro compo shouldn't be about pretending that the C64 has limited memory, is it also a problem that some music compos don't allow samples, or that some graphics compos are limited to char mode, or 4 colours, or don't allow mixing screenmodes, or don't allow the use of sprites, colour cycling, animation? Many compos have rules that, it could be argued, are quite arbitrary. I don't think it makes them less interesting. |
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TWW
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 543 |
Quote:but then bowed to community pressure.
The tyrrany of democrocy :) |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1069 |
Quoting RaistlinSize-limited intro compos. WHY are they restricted to limited RAM?
The restriction was invented by Didi for his crack intro competitions. The reasoning is simple: to leave room for the game.
afaik only Didi's crack intro compos use this extra restriction. All (yes all) other size-limited compos do not have any restriction on RAM usage. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
Well, intros used to be _all_ about size. The TRIAD "Mr. Z intro" is a good example.
It could be argued that size doesn't matter so much anymore when there are really fast loaders and alternative storage solutions with more space, but IMO an intro for a crack should try to be below 1k.
...and size coding is fun! |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
The memory footprint restriction is sensible for an actual intro (not size-restricted demo) compo, and it's the only of its oddball kind.
It's just the fine-print that was always a little bonkers and needlessly complicated, rather than simply providing a large incompressible bitsalad file or three to link with. =) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 627 |
Quote: Well, intros used to be _all_ about size. The TRIAD "Mr. Z intro" is a good example.
It could be argued that size doesn't matter so much anymore when there are really fast loaders and alternative storage solutions with more space, but IMO an intro for a crack should try to be below 1k.
...and size coding is fun!
Definitely intros were always about size. I say that in my original post. IMO, an intro shouldn’t add much more than 25% to the size of the initial game it’s linked to.. preferably much less.
But… my point was that if a 1k intro is linked to a 1k game, why not use the other 62k? Outside of compos, proper intros could definitely do that - why wouldn’t they if they allowed them to be somehow cooler? By using the extra 62k, I don’t mean increasing the size of the crack (intro + game), I’m talking about the intro generating code and/or data to somehow improve the intro’s effect.
But I guess intro compos aren’t just about intros.. the added restriction makes it more like a size coding compo with restrictions. Which I can of course understand the interest in. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
Quoting RaistlinBut… my point was that if a 1k intro is linked to a 1k game, why not use the other 62k? Outside of compos, proper intros could definitely do that - why wouldn’t they if they allowed them to be somehow cooler?
At runtime, sure. But not in binary size, because loading time and space it takes up on a disk.
Quoting RaistlinBut I guess intro compos aren’t just about intros.. the added restriction makes it more like a size coding compo with restrictions. Which I can of course understand the interest in.
You could argue that the whole c64 (and retro computing) scene in general is all about restrictions already. Nothing wrong with a few more to encourage creativity. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting RaistlinBut… my point was that if a 1k intro is linked to a 1k game, why not use the other 62k? [...] I’m talking about the intro generating code and/or data to somehow improve the intro’s effect. This boils down to the same "pls provide payload to link with" argument.
Question would be how to properly formalise that for a compo. Either you make the payload so big as to implicitly enforce a memory footprint restriction on the intro, or the payload is smaller and then... require the intro to be no more than a fourth of the payload's size? On disk? After decrunch? Or require crunched intro+payload not to exceed 125% of payload size? Etc. =) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Now someone please make a tool that generates a binary containing random uncompressable bitsalad, plus a piece of code that checksums it for validation, so i don't have to do it :) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
Quote: Now someone please make a tool that generates a binary containing random uncompressable bitsalad, plus a piece of code that checksums it for validation, so i don't have to do it :)
cgen of cbmtools 0.9 does this, but currently only with compressible data. I could add such an option if there is public demand. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Do it! (checker code should probably be position independent) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1403 |
So are we talking ~56KiB of random bits to pretend we're doing a trad style "running the intro after decrunch but before unpack," or? |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 627 |
Just to reiterate my original point..
In the OLD days, the really old days, all that we cared about was the size of the file. If a game was 4k, and we linked a 1k intro, so maybe we increased a 16 block game to 17 or 18 blocks, nobody could care less if the cool intro that we slapped on the front used all the spare memory or it just stuck to bank 0. Only the block size mattered, did the game work, were there cool trainers and how good is the intro? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
You are conveniently ignoring that crack intros were universal things used with dozens, or even hundreds, of different releases :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
I can tell you that with raster plaster I shat bricks to make it fit into working 16k memory. you cant even unroll raster code. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 269 |
I don't understand where is the problem?
One can write the intro in whatever way one wants. If one organizes intro compo, one can set whatever rules one want.
I do not see a problem if one intro compo limits executable size, and the other compo limits memory usage as long as the rules are set up upfront and clear. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1069 |
Quoting RaistlinIn the OLD days, the really old days, all that we cared about was the size of the file.
not really, we only cared about being first :)
also, exactly what Jetboy said :) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4702 |
Quote: Quoting RaistlinIn the OLD days, the really old days, all that we cared about was the size of the file.
not really, we only cared about being first :)
also, exactly what Jetboy said :)
I think he means the OLD days, like pre 1988 old. Like he mentioned: The Mr.Z-intro etc. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1069 |
Quoting hedningI think he means the OLD days, like pre 1988 old. Like he mentioned: The Mr.Z-intro etc.
no, one example doesn't make it all that we cared about.
Eagle Soft Incorporated Intro (Eagle 2x1) is not small :)
anyway, the real pressure on crack (and thus intro) size came with gamers guide.
that doesn't mean great work like Mr.Z's intro wasn't appreciated. it's not a surprise he rules the cracker charts here :)
edit: also why I rate gp2k! highly :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:Eagle Soft Incorporated Intro (Eagle 2x1) is not small :)
Was that used on onefilers though? When the release is a full disk anyway, things are a bit different IMHO :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Question still remains: How to properly formalise any less-bonkers modified restrictions? =) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 627 |
Quote: Question still remains: How to properly formalise any less-bonkers modified restrictions? =)
"there'll be a xK game that needs to be left at or copied to $0801-????. We won't provide that but will test your intro with it." should surely suffice..?
I'm not suggesting that this compo be done, by the way.. it's not worth diluting the excellent existing intro compo with another one with different rules.
I don't even know how the extra memory could be used - I just wonder why the restriction is always there that it can't be. Coding an intro that compresses to a small footprint but expands itself to fill more memory isn't especially easy and opens up new challenges. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting RaistlinI just wonder why the restriction is always there that it can't be. Coding an intro that compresses to a small footprint but expands itself to fill more memory isn't especially easy and opens up new challenges. For an intro competition, restricting the memory footprint to some arbitrary size (say, 4KB) makes sense, doesn't it?
The usual restriction is size on disk, with the entire RAM at your disposal.
Are you suggesting something in between? :) Like 4 KB on disk and 8 KB RAM available? |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 269 |
Intro competition is about the intro, not about game that is attached to.
Sure, Intros originated from crack intros, but that was 30++ years ago. Since then they evolved a lot and became it's own thing.
I still do not understand why would you want to create common rules. Scene is not a mindless corporation that needs stiff rules. On the contrary, it is all about breaking rules and pushing limits. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Do not confuse intros with size-constrained onefiled demos. =) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1333 |
I'd propose providing several actual games prepacked with exomizer or sth to be linked with the intro, each in separate size category. Will that shut naysayers for good or what? :D |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting JammerI'd propose providing several actual games prepacked with exomizer or sth to be linked with the intro, each in separate size category. What about linking a collection of previous entries? Intros to intros! =) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1403 |
Quoting JammerI'd propose providing several actual games prepacked with exomizer or sth to be linked with the intro, each in separate size category. Will that shut naysayers for good or what? :D
sounds good to me - can we be allowed to repack them as long as they decrunch to the same uncompressed thing within some specified number of seconds? :D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
And thats when this random self checking blob comes into play :) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: And thats when this random self checking blob comes into play :)
Tlr’s code better have secure random, otherwize just port the generator! ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Thats why the rules should give such file as an example - and check with a different file. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
Quote: Tlr’s code better have secure random, otherwize just port the generator! ;)
haha, good point! |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 269 |
Quote: Do not confuse intros with size-constrained onefiled demos. =)
I do confuse them since 1993 :)
Obornik |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting JetboyI do confuse them since 1993 :)
Obornik Yeah okay, i meant that the ICC discussed here is specifically geared towards actual intros (to imaginary cracked games), not 4K demos or the like.
The rules even demand text and logo. =) |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
Here is another intro compo if you want to compete.
Oldschool 16k intro compo to meet Atari-demo-scene standards :).
But it should be named 16k demo compo... :)
https://blackbirdie.org/compos/ |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2160 |
Quoting Raistlin... The Ryk -did- start with the rules how I suggest to begin with .. but then bowed to community pressure.
LOL!
The saying "Not being scolded is praise enough" comes to my mind, in our scene not being scolded is impossible, so I'd transform it to "If your compo rules do not lead to any suicides, violence or ragequits and only around half of the possible competitors publicly tear their dresses and tell you in a polite language what a dork you are, then you did your job."
Quoting TWW
The tyrrany of democrocy :)
In the end none of the factions was satisfied and I was hated by everyone all the same, anyway, so I could have as well gone with my original set of rules... ^^
Kidding aside, I'm not sulky at all, but actually BECAUSE ICC and its rules always produce such controversy before, while and after it's running, I think it's good to have not always the same person hosting it. Maybe the 16k (aka not much of meaningful limit at all) dudes would prefer Didi or Richard to host it once again for a change. Or any of sizecoding and intro experts who were so dissatisfied with my rules, takes the helm. I'm definetely out.* Next big standalone compo I'm planning to host is the 4th quadrennial Plain PETSCII Compo in early 2025.
However, why not have "Demos that look like Intros 1k/2k/4k/8k Compo" hosted by Raistlin now in Summer independent of ICC (which traditionally used to be in Fall/Winter)?
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Edit:
* I tell you this, because people on IRC explicitly asked me about organizing... As an orga for the next standalone sizecoding compo, I'm out, not as competitor :) |
