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Forums > CSDb Discussions > HDMI upscaling on a budget

2017-11-27 12:05

MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055

HDMI upscaling on a budget

I love my CRT to death, but sometimes a more compact option is needed. Does anyone know of an HDMI upscaler that doesn't cost $400, outputs 50 Hz without artifacts or dropping frames, and shows aspect correct 4:3 with black bars on a 16:9 display? The $30 converters on eBay are crap. Specifically, has anyone tried these KanexPro converters? http://www.kanexpro.com/converters/composite/

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2017-12-20 21:29

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11100

*sigh* recommending random hardware of which is unknown if it would work or not in the existing production chain is NOT helping anyone really. and rewiring the recording setup every time someone needs to record some c64 stuff isnt really an option either. and still, the imagepro DOES provide a very very nice picture. its sharp, it doesnt drop frames, and you can adjust the colors and every other parameter including those you never heard about all you want. i am still 100% positive your problem is all about personal preference and could be solved easily by twiddling some knobs. you can always become part of the compo team and then do just that :) (and you can bet money on that afterwards, some people will bitch at you how you fucked up the colors =P)
(other parties have been using framemeister, btw. cant say i noticed a significant difference in picture quality though)

edit: just to make that clear: no doubt framemeister is an excellent device and does the job. but so is the imagepro (its the defacto reference for all and every scanconverter - and for a good reason).

2017-12-20 22:53

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quoting Groepaz

Quote:
I don't know anything about the imagepro-hd, but I'm guessing obsolete 8/16 bit computer graphics weren't really what it was designed for.

they are designed to convert anything to anything. they dont care how "obsolete" the signal is, and they do everything that framemeister thing can do - and then some.

however, what they dont have are the typical oversaturated colors which are characteristic for most consumer grade video equipment :) it might just be a matter of adjusting a few settings to get the same (probably better) image from an imagepro, if what you are after are those screaming colors.

the problem here really is that some things you might perceive as "better" is really just what you are used to from what you have seen for decades. eg i have heard quite often from various people that the picture of a sony pvm monitor looks "bad" to them - when in objective terms its really much better than what most other (consumer) monitors can deliver. (for example because the typical "scanlines" are much more visible on the pvm than they are on eg a 1701).

I'm not referring to colours. This image from the site I linked above demonstrates my point about high end equipment...

The shot behind is a Faroudja processor displaying 240p, that is quoted as costing $9000USD when new. You may dispute the use of the word "better", but whilst I'm sure it handles video extremely well, I'm confident it's not what most people want to see from pixel graphics.

Happy to take your word on the imagepro-hd though.

2017-12-21 00:03

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034

It might be a heated debate, but nevertheless oh Yeah I Like It...

Good reading.

2017-12-22 02:34

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11100

Quote:

The shot behind is a Faroudja processor displaying 240p, that is quoted as costing $9000USD when new. You may dispute the use of the word "better", but whilst I'm sure it handles video extremely well, I'm confident it's not what most people want to see from pixel graphics.

i dont know that device, but this picture is clearly post-processed and somehow antialiased - the imagepro doesnt do that in the setup we have used at revision (actually i dont know if it even CAN do that).

and, the complaints i have heard in the couple of years (mostly when i was in the compo team myself) were almost always about colors. sometimes they are "dull", sometimes they are "too bright", sometimes they are $insertfavouritecomplaint. :) thats why i recommend those who complain to join the team, and do it the way they think it should be done. and face the consequences of course (there _will_ be complaints =))

2017-12-25 04:18

Tim
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467

thanks Dano, Groepaz for confirming the quality

And thanks Deev, knowing a scener has purchased means more to me than google recommendations.

I've been holding off on buying a framemeister for over a year now.. having a very large retro/console collection it probably is worth it, but having B&O's and a small PVM I kept pushing the decision forward due to price.

That said, it's Christmas and towels and socks this year are just not making me happy so far ;) so pulling the trigger based on this thread, thanks all.

Few questions..

- Not only for C64's, but also for all the other machines (mostly generation 1 to 6 consoles) are there any options (cables, etc) from Solaris that I should consider a must buy, or at least a recommended purchase alongside so I can piggyback them saving extra shipping or third party?

- For recording, can I match the framemeister to an legato? (I recently got the version with component cables, but am assuming have the framemeister inbetween the source will improve recording? please correct me if wrong).

And hardware mods..

- Also assuming proper RGB mods where available are still going to give a better feed into the framemeister as apposed to composite right?

- And c64 specific lumafix, I'm guessing this one is no longer relevant when using the framemeister, correct?

thanks
Tim

2017-12-26 00:05

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quoting Tim

And thanks Deev, knowing a scener has purchased means more to me than google recommendations.

No problem :) I was also heavily influenced by Taper's article, which I linked above!

Quoting Tim

- Not only for C64's, but also for all the other machines (mostly generation 1 to 6 consoles) are there any options (cables, etc) from Solaris that I should consider a must buy, or at least a recommended purchase alongside so I can piggyback them saving extra shipping or third party?

I'm not sure if you're aware, but Japanese and European SCART wiring is different.

As a standard, the Framemeister comes with a Japanese-wired SCART input adapter, but they give you the option to replace it with a Euro one.

Which you need purely depends on your output cables, not the region of the consoles (the signal is the same, just the pins are different).

There isn't anything else I can think of, though bear in mind it's a Japanese unit, so you'll need a step down convertor or alternative transformer.

Quoting Tim

- For recording, can I match the framemeister to an legato? (I recently got the version with component cables, but am assuming have the framemeister inbetween the source will improve recording? please correct me if wrong).

I don't own any recording devices, but it outputs HDMI or DVI at the usual resolutions/frame rates (1080p, 720p etc at 60hz or 50hz), so I'm assuming that if your Legato has either of those inputs, it should be fine. I'm pretty certain it will look better incorporating the Framemeister. There are lots of examples on youtube.

Quoting Tim

And hardware mods..

- Also assuming proper RGB mods where available are still going to give a better feed into the framemeister as apposed to composite right?

Yes, the difference between RGB and composite is huge! Consoles which output RGB look almost emulator-like through the Framemeister.

The Framemeister does a better job of composite than my LCD TV, but it still looks pretty poor. RGB is where it excels.

Quoting Tim

- And c64 specific lumafix, I'm guessing this one is no longer relevant when using the framemeister, correct?

If you mean to reduce the vertical bars, it might actually more relevant! The image is quite sharp with a Framemeister, so the vertical bars can be strong. I actually horizontally blur the image ever to slightly to reduce this, but they're still visible on certain colours (cyan is especially bad). The C64C I currently have is particular bad for vertical bars, on my older bread breadbin C64, they were less noticeable, but sadly it died. The newer model is the only one I've been able to test with the Framemeister. I do intend to try the lumafix eventually!

I also get a small amount of bleeding on certain colours. Not sure if this is the C64s output, or my cable. I don't see it on other hardware, so I don't think it's the Framemeister.

I want to emphasise that The Framemeister doesn't deliver a perfect image, especially for the C64, but it is by far the best image I've seen from a C64 on a modern display. In some ways a PVM is probably better, but it's nice to sit on the sofa and watch C64 demos on my 42" screen (and I know some people have far larger TVs!)

I do intend to try and take some photos at some stage to better demonstrate what I'm describing, I've just been a little busy with Christmas! :)

2017-12-26 03:14

Tim
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467

Awesome Deev, many thanks.. and Ill be sure to drop Taper a thank you on Antidote!

Yeah, I noticed they had two bundles (JP21 / EU Scart) on the site, but no option to get one bundle and order the other separately, so I have dropped them an email asking if their EU warehouse perhaps had both and if they would consider me ordering a separate adapter to piggyback on the same order.

If they cant Ill just go with the Japanese bundle and get the eu cable from www.retrogamingcables.co.uk might as well now that I think of it, since Im expecting the remote control will be Japanese and Ill need to pick up the English overlay from them anyhow and do some research on the other items they have.. take my money already! lol

Ps, also picking up the D-terminal to component adapter, seems like a must have too

Yah, those specs match the Elgato, perfect sounds like a winning combo.
At some point I have some recording I would like to do, but Ill wait not till the framemeister arrives, perhaps even do some comparisons myself.

Ah ok.. well then Ill still need to go through the devices for RGB mods then.. not in a hurry, have the components here already for some months for a few, but keep finding other project to keep me occupied.. sigh.. endless time (Y/N).. wheres a trainer when you need it ;)

Ok, so also Lumafix still on the menu then.. ordered those months ago but never arrived.. sigh.. but yes as you said, I find myself wanting to watch demos on the big screen and use youtube more often.. sometimes useful, but Id rather use my own machine.. somehow the sid never sounds quite right on youtube despite matching specs.

Thanks again Deev, big help!

2017-12-29 21:41

Tim
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467

FYI incase anyone else was interested too;

-----------------------
Hi Tim,
Thank you for contacting us!
Yes, you can add the second RGB Adapter Cable to the order to get both.
Just use this coupon so you won't be charged shipping for the extra cable:
FREESHIPPINGRGB
Regards,
Jacob

2018-01-03 22:33

Tim
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467

so.. orders finally done.

With lack from further replies from Solaris, I just went for the JP21 bundle shipped from Europe.

From retrogamingcables.co.uk I picked up the rest.

- XRGB Mini Framemeister English Remote Translation Overlay lexan - white
- CSYNC EuroSCART to Framemeister XRGB-mini adapter
- Commodore C64 S VIDEO SVHS cable cord lead

..as well as a Sony PVM csync cable (bout time I replaced a dodgy cable I have) and a separate sync board to chop up an existing cable for another device to round up a nice order over the 75gbp ex vat mark for free shipping)

thanks again guys for advice and help!

2018-01-13 09:54

Tim
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467

..short update, 10 days later and Solaris still has not shipped.. sigh..

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