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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Random topic closures
"Adam summed things up nicely and now another pointless thread about voting at CSDb comes to a close.
(read: Things aren't going to change)"
I am tired too about that topic, but just because *you* dont like it, its no reason to close it. This moderator function is abused way too much. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Like I wrote earlier, it's the usual "if you don't think about it, it's not a problem" way of solving things around here.
Ostrich policy. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2893 |
The endless discussion about the voting system in 25+ threads hasn't solved a single thing. Any discussion at this point is not going to bring anything new to the topic.
But please, open another thread about voting - lather, rinse, repeat |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Actually, quite a lot of issues were solved after long discussions and we have made steps in the right directions during these debates. But yeah, just close the threads, it's definitely easier to cope with controversial subjects that way. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2893 |
No, nothing has changed about the CSDb voting based on these pointless discussions.
... and yes, I'll continue to close topics as needed |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4595 |
The mods can't do shit about the voting system, and I am not sure the guy who can do anything about it even reads these posts. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
It might be a pointless discussion to some, but I was actually getting closer to understanding why so many people oppose public votes. I hadn't heard the argument that the ones in favor of public voting only wanted it so they could harass the downvoters. I hadn't even thought about it that way, since harassment isn't in my nature. My idea was just that it would reduce downvoting because most people don't want to look like unreasonable little babies in public.
But of course I know that you can't retroactively make the private votes public, so it's more of a theoretical discussion. |
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Zirias
Registered: Jan 2014
Posts: 48 |
Quote: The mods can't do shit about the voting system, and I am not sure the guy who can do anything about it even reads these posts.
That's a) good to know and b) unfortunate. But I still don't think it's a very good reason to just close the topic. Some further info would be interesting, like, who *could* do something about it and how to contact this person?
Of course, as the now closed thread showed, there's no consensus (yet?) about what should best be done to "fix" the voting, so it's at least possible that further discussion could be good for something... |
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Zirias
Registered: Jan 2014
Posts: 48 |
Quoting Cruzer[public voting] My idea was just that it would reduce downvoting because most people don't want to look like unreasonable little babies in public.
I'd phrase it the other way around: It would shift the range actually used further upwards, because many people try to "be nice" when their vote is public. I think it's already a problem that anything below 8 is taken as an insult instead of an honest vote. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 444 |
Quote:I think it's already a problem that anything below 8 is taken as an insult instead of an honest vote.
I doubt that. Of course everybody can have a bad day / being over sensitive once in a while, but in fact I can count the people I remember repeatedly complaining about votes with one hand - and most / if not all I can recall right know have been banned from this site anyway for various reasons. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I had my votes public for the longest time, but as of late i decided to hide them.
A while back, a fellow scener had the nerve to tell me via pm how he and his buddy downvoted me as a musician
(although he admitted that he liked some of my shit) in retaliation for my vote on one of their musicians, i kid you not.
He openly admitted that he didn't agree with my vote and that i needed punishment for not voting the way he felt i should have.
There is too much entitlement going on here and too many fragile egos. A lot of people just cant handle the truth. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:in fact I can count the people I remember repeatedly complaining about votes with one hand
this |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
StainlessSteel and anybody else who encounter such troublesome shitheads: just tell me and I'll get rid of them without thinking 2 times.
Anybody who will be get caught pestering others about votes will be permabanned. You have been warned and I'm not going to repeat myself. |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 254 |
Quote: Quote:in fact I can count the people I remember repeatedly complaining about votes with one hand
this
So anywhere up to 32 people, then. Or up to 243 people, if you're using ternary dactylonomy. |
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TWW
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 541 |
So basically because of (insert number between 1 to 5 here) person(s) who can't handle feedback the voting must be anonymous to ensure people won't get harassed even though if these said persons "who will be get caught pestering others about votes will be permabanned"...
Who is this hidden votes supposed to protect? Certainly not self entitled lunatics who only get's themselves banned, so who?
Logic around this policy fails here and sorry, nothing was summed up nicely as was the argument for closing the other thread.
Now in regards to closing threads, fine by me no worries if the topic is leading nowhere and is closed due to this. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
imho moderation exist is to keep the peace, now if a topic doesnt disturb that, why close it ? let people went it out from their system :)
topic and forum is for people to blabble for whatever they feel like it, not to solve problems or to lead anywhere. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
The initial post by jb was about the seemingly flawed algorithm. Then someone threw in the anonymous votes and things went berserk. Let's try again? The show must go on for anonymous csdb.dk lurkers. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
In my many years of public voting, I can only recall one PM where I got a complaint about a vote. It wasn't really harassment, just something like "why did you downvote my pic?" And then I replied that 6 wasn't a downvote. But yeah, it's unfortunate that virtually only votes from 8-10 are used, even for demos that don't show anything new, since people aren't encouraged to come up with something new then.
Quoting TWWnothing was summed up nicely I love you.
Quoting Oswaldlet people went it out from their system :) And you too. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
1) all votes go public
2) a bunch of people will stop voting, because of various reasons
3) results are even more statistically irrelevant than before
4) another thread about how the voting is terrible will emerge |
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celticdesign
Registered: Oct 2005
Posts: 148 |
Guess it would be way to easy to disable the CSDB voting completely, no?
Or just add the points together so there wouldn't be any "retarded" downvoting at all. =:-) |
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The Overkiller
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 342 |
IMHO the problem sometimes is the lack of written feedbacks than votes public or not, but anyway, a compromise could be to allow an entry creator to choose a certain voting system: only public, only anonym, mixed ... |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 224 |
What Hein said. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2893 |
Quoting ZiriasOf course, as the now closed thread showed, there's no consensus (yet?) about what should best be done to "fix" the voting, so it's at least possible that further discussion could be good for something...
Unlikely as this is the 29th public thread about the *insert your pet complaint* voting system at CSDb.
Like iAN said, if people are sending you nasty messages about your votes pass it along to a moderator. Those people aren't needed here and the staff will take action. |
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rail slave
Registered: Feb 2016
Posts: 20 |
How often is the system getting abused though ?
I've been pretty prolific and tbh, I only really have the one persistent down voter (who I have actually come to treasure and who obviously has much much higher hopes for my abilities, I work to maybe someday impress him/her)
Surely It's one or two people.(these days) ?
But yeah, embrace the down votes... even those people can be blown away by a release that simply cannot be denied.
That's what I'm working toward.
I think a cool solution would be, to get the privilege of voting you MUST comment, in this way you can explain why you gave stuff a 7 or whatever. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
> you MUST comment, in this way you can explain why you gave stuff a 7 or whatever.
You are assuming that a comment reflects one's vote.
I've seen people praising in comment and then voting 1 anonymously. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2893 |
Quoting iAN CooGYou are assuming that a comment reflects one's vote.
I've seen people praising in comment and then voting 1 anonymously.
Yeah, gotta love that sorta thing
... and no, requiring people to "explain their vote" isn't a great idea |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
Less voters -> less accurateness statistically
More voters -> more accurateness statistically
But i really think, most of the voting people make "fair" votes. |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 224 |
What Shine said.
Just one remark more on the subject as I am keen on keeping words to a minimum these days, as this after all is just a database (not the scene, not the biggest chart of any discmag) with me being the top time voter:
If you cared about voting or even browsing through some of those tons of fantastic releases laying around here from deep 80:ies to the latest. You would be amazed at how much brilliant results lay in the c64 history, the legacy. I am quite confident that if more people like me (at least a head of 4 more) would give as much attention, the canonic feature of that legacy would give you quite different results than the current.
Vote more, if you care, but more importantly, review more of the fantastic content, which actually is stored, and continuously being uploaded onto this platform and enjoy! |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting ShineBut i really think, most of the voting people make "fair" votes. Agree, although a bit high. Upvoting is a bigger problem than downvoting. It's like 10 means great, 9 is ok and everything below is shit. Maybe it would be an idea to have a description of each score to remind the voters to use the whole scale, e.g.
10: Highly innovative and perfect
9: Very good
8: Good
...
5: Average
...
1: Very bad
This would remind people that on average, their votes should be 5. Of course you should be able to figure that out yourself, but I don't even do that myself because of the way the scores are perceived and I don't want to look like a downvoter. Maybe it's time to go back to anonymous mode :) |
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rail slave
Registered: Feb 2016
Posts: 20 |
Quote: What Shine said.
Just one remark more on the subject as I am keen on keeping words to a minimum these days, as this after all is just a database (not the scene, not the biggest chart of any discmag) with me being the top time voter:
If you cared about voting or even browsing through some of those tons of fantastic releases laying around here from deep 80:ies to the latest. You would be amazed at how much brilliant results lay in the c64 history, the legacy. I am quite confident that if more people like me (at least a head of 4 more) would give as much attention, the canonic feature of that legacy would give you quite different results than the current.
Vote more, if you care, but more importantly, review more of the fantastic content, which actually is stored, and continuously being uploaded onto this platform and enjoy!
Joe, how I long for more than a sentence from someone as talented and informed as you are :)
We need your unabridged feedback ! |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2064 |
@making all public: what groepaz sez, no change will please everyone, nor prevent assholes from being assholes or drama queens from being drama queens
@people whining about an 8 per PM or even per mail or in persona: I mostly react by just no voting at all for future releases by such, case closed
My 2 cents
I check out a lot and vote a lot, in public. Due to a rather positive attitude, something must be really shitty in an annoying way to make me vote less than 4. If it's just shitty (but not annoyingly shitty), not voting is an option and also a statement! If some release feels like someone achieved what they wanted in a decent way, I might consider 6 or 7. If something really appeals to me and is well-done, it's 8 or higher. 9 for almost perfect, 10 for what else could you ask for. Probably many people who care too much would see me as a public upvote hero/coward, but that's alright.
PS: I also considered to go back to anonymous or stop voting or even delete votes manually (clickomania, yeah) either to make a statement or to keep out of drama but then I decided I don't care enough about the whole drama, so I just keep on doing what I do :) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
this topic is going down with lameness. so if I understood correctly a scener should report mods about something bad another scener told him?! oh gosh, never in my life! the times when I had to tell mommy when I needed to pee are long gone. also involving mods and get another user banned will make this wonderful place much worse.
my suggestion is: close this thread and reopen the old one ( The voting system is completely retarded ), which was more constructive. Please, Moloch. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4595 |
Quote: this topic is going down with lameness. so if I understood correctly a scener should report mods about something bad another scener told him?! oh gosh, never in my life! the times when I had to tell mommy when I needed to pee are long gone. also involving mods and get another user banned will make this wonderful place much worse.
my suggestion is: close this thread and reopen the old one ( The voting system is completely retarded ), which was more constructive. Please, Moloch.
Or close both for that matter. This discussion will be neverending, and Perff is the only one that handles the code for this site. PM him about your ideas, and you'll see if he likes it or not. In the end it is his choice, not ours. |
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
Wow.... I'm not big on posting, but after reading this... Man.. Something simple to think about.. We are all adults now (Most.. folks I know from back in the day, and others) As adults, MOST appreciate the fact, that folks set aside time out of their busy schedules, to put together some fantastic demos/apps. This alone to me is a plus, and comments show the appreciation for the hard work put into a product.
The simplest thing to do, is get rid of voting all together. It sounds like (and I have noticed, that it IS broken) it has never worked correctly from the start. At least by shutting it down, and shit, go back to the old ways, where folks put out there own charts. Less bitching, and pointless, endless chain discussions on something that, (to me) the powers that be don't seem to care about.
(Wow, I wrote a lot of shit here, for a pointless conversation :) )
Just my 2c, at least it would stop the bitching ;) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2064 |
In a way I also agree...
... with Joe: Enjoying what's in this database is far more important than whether to vote whatever.
... and Kickback (getting rid of the whole Voting would highlight the dogma that this is a database by eliminating one aspect that makes it look like it was another antisocial media)
Quote:In the end it is his choice, not ours.
tyra...! *cough*
just kidding, I hope Perff only deals with voting no sooner than when no more important issues are to be done.
how about BTT: Fred closures do not really effect what they're aiming at (peace?) but rater fuel the fire. I guess without the closure the discussion might have died in the other thread some days ago, just saying, and now I'm off, gardening :P |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1821 |
voting 10 for gardening... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
and the b in garden stands for beer! |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
It has been shown that the rating algorithm is broken. It has been shown that moderators cannot do anything about it. It has been suggested that Perff probably won't do anything about it. It has been shown that moderators like to close (in their opinion pointless) discussions. There are many who find all this pointless, but still comment on it :)
IMHO 25+ discussions is rather clear indication that there is a demand for smart rating system, and that CSDB should evolve, and if not, then another site should take charts and ratings job.
I've got some code for HVSC browser website where one can browse and sort sids based on header info, and users can do their own ratings, reviews and playlists. Similar site could do the ratings job for CSDB as well. Anyway, mine is a lot of work yet, but if someone is willing to continue I'll give the code.(Django + some db + javascriptwebshit...)
So, I see this as an opportunity for someone with too much free time. :) |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
Mixer: are you joking? It's much easier to whine on a forum than doing something productive. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
Quote: Mixer: are you joking? It's much easier to whine on a forum than doing something productive.
My bad. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2893 |
@Mixer: Yeah, sounds nice and easy right?
Guessing here, there have been five or six projects over the years to replace parts of or the entirety of CSDb functionality. Guess how many are finished and available to the public? ;) |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
Add to list: it has been shown that attempts to improve situation have not made any difference. I guess CSDB source is not open public either, eh? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
you dont even want to look at that source, believe me |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
Groepaz: just checking all avenues. Just like government IT projects, theyre shit and cannot be fixed, because they just cannot, but people still have to pay taxes and fees for the upkeep. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting iAN CooGIt's much easier to whine on a forum than doing something productive. It's not whining to suggest improvements. Just for the record I think that this is an unbelieveably great collection of C64 warez, and there are only a few things that maybe could be done in a better way. Most important is probably not closing down discussions because mods find them pointless. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2893 |
The discussion about the voting system is, in fact, pointless as after 29 threads nothing has changed.
MOAR THREADS isn't going to change the problems with the voting system |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 243 |
may be thread no. 30 will change something ;) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
Surely leaving the topic open would result in fewer threads?
That way there'd just be one massive page for everyone who doesn't care to ignore, instead of a new one cropping up every time someone's baffled by the way their vote changes the score, or is convinced that downvoting is somehow "fixable"
(position statement: anon voting is good. Seeing the graphs is nice. CSDB score is not an ideal metric to use for compo votes but it is convenient and seems to get more responses than offsite forms. Being able to submit fractional ratings would be a nice feature, especially given the inflated scores many things seem to get these days. Thanks iAN for taking a hardline stance against rater intimidation). |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2893 |
Quoting ChristopherJamSurely leaving the topic open would result in fewer threads?
nah, all of the previous threads aren't closed |
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rail slave
Registered: Feb 2016
Posts: 20 |
Just playing Devil's advocate here.
In the greater scheme of things, my little troll(s) votes average on a 3 or 4 ..never a 1
giving a lot of room for improvement (which is true).
As previously stated I think it's possible to get a 10 from one of these people, that obviously wish better things from us.
I have a feeling if this was a 5 point system, those would translate to a 3.
(if it is full on abuse, why not just name and shame ? ) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
Quote:my little troll(s) votes average on a 3 or 4 ..never a 1
fun fact: those would often be more efficient "downvotes" than 1s :=) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
What if the voting algorithm was replaced with a straight average? Would it result in throwing the charts in an unholy mess? :) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4595 |
Quote: What if the voting algorithm was replaced with a straight average? Would it result in throwing the charts in an unholy mess? :)
That is something I guess only Perff can answer. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11108 |
it should just show the median value, instead of first computing the median, and then try to "correct" the votes in some totally broken way :=) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
Nah, interquartile mean :) |
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Rastah Bar
Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 336 |
Maybe this should be a compo ;-)
Like this:
Everybody can propose an algorithm. Then an iterative method is used to decide the winner: the algorithm that ranks highest according to the current CSDB algorithm is used to evaluate all entries again. If a different algorithm then has the most points, the evaluation is repeated with that one, etc., until it converges. If it does not converge, I'm afraid we'll be stuck with the current algorithm. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
wat? |
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Mr.Ammo
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 228 |
Quoting Color BarMaybe this should be a compo ;-)
Like this:
Everybody can propose an algorithm. Then an iterative method is used to decide the winner: the algorithm that ranks highest according to the current CSDB algorithm is used to evaluate all entries again. If a different algorithm then has the most points, the evaluation is repeated with that one, etc., until it converges. If it does not converge, I'm afraid we'll be stuck with the current algorithm.
Why not look at the data:
This is how the official results of the non-standard time signature music compo compares to the results based on all votes on CSDb. In the second table the result is based on the real mean and in third table the result is based on the the super duper secret weighted average that CSDb uses.
Official results:
=================
1. Monofail by LMan (9.08)
2. OdDnB by Jammer (9.00)
3. Slipper by Saul Cross (8.46)
4. Plarp by Mermaid (8.42)
5. AfD Kaputt Schlagen - TOT by Spider Jerusalem (8.17)
6. In Ruhe 1 Abseilen by Spider Jerusalem (7.67)
7. Gypsophila by Saul Cross (7.62)
8. Harder Times by Mibri (7.58)
(based on 13 voters using a google sheets vote sheet)
Results based on the avarage of all votes:
==========================================
Rank Title / Entry # Votes Real Mean
---- ------------- ------- ----------
1 Monofail 33 9.67
2 OdDnB 35 9.54
3 Slipper 9 9.33
4 Plarp! 16 9.00
5 AfD Kaputt Schlagen - TOT 14 9.00
6 Harder Times 10 8.90
7 In Ruhe 1 Abseilen 8 8.75
8 Gypsophila 14 8.50
Results based on CSDb weighted average:
=======================================
Rank Title / Entry # Votes CSDb Mean
---- ------------- ------- ---------
1 Monofail 33 9.70
2 OdDnB 35 9.60
3 Slipper 9 9.40
4 AfD Kaputt Schlagen - TOT 14 9.10
5 Plarp! 16 9.00
6 Gypsophila 14 8.90
7 Harder Times 10 8.80
8 In Ruhe 1 Abseilen 8 8.70
Seems like the 13 voters are representative for the average CSDb voter. Only rank 6, 7 and 8 seem to differ in order. |
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Mibri
Registered: Feb 2018
Posts: 197 |
In light of the above results and statistics, I hereby propose that we change the system so that it displays the real mean...!
Seriously though, at the end of the day, I think reputation - while impossible to measure - is the most important thing rather than scores on individual releases; the most accomplished sceners will always be the best remembered and the most respected in general. People downvoting out of jealousy or tactics or whatever - surely this is just the ugly flipside of respect. I know I'm new-ish on here so my opinion might not carry very much weight, but I think we probably can just rise above this issue. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2064 |
Of course I have also witnessed quite funny CSDb algo results after casting a vote.
But although only little above a dozen people voted for PETSCII compo 2017, I found neither meaningful nor even scandalous divergence of final results from CSDb results. So if Mr Ammo's comparison of Nonstandard voting with CSDb proves anything, then probably that there is rather less reason for drama than some think.
PS: After the BCC#12 voting drama, I was glad we've got CSDb voting to show ranks in a more realistic light ;) |
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Golara
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2018
Posts: 212 |
I'll dig out this old thread to give me 2 cents. I think 1-10 scale doesn't make much sence here. I noticed that you rarely get votes below 6 (I don't think I ever got any). And 6-10 can be considered an upvote. If someone doesn't like your prod he's more likely to not vote at all, maybe leave a comment saying it sucks, but that's it. Just a thumbs up/down would work really well here I think.
As for anonymous votes. I think they should be allowed, but only accounts with 1-3 (Arbitrary number here) releases / credits can vote. To get an account here you need to write a reason for it so I doubt there's a lot of sock accounts that are just vote bombing, but I get that impression from reading these threads.
Also, I've seen the word harassment in these threads. It's hysterical. Bunch of old dudes whining about mean words.
If you think someone disrespects you or your work how about you tell them to fuck of ? I feel so weird here. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=7&topicid=134591#134598
Ian,
"just because *you* dont like it, its no reason to close it. This moderator function is abused way too much." |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4595 |
Keep to the topic, please. |
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Zirias
Registered: Jan 2014
Posts: 48 |
So the topic here is "random topic closures" and the link is showing a somewhat random one. Using 7z around here might be the most stupid idea ever, still it's hard to define off-topic in a board labelled "general discussion", especially if the discussed topic can be linked to CSDb itself.
I personally don't care about this topic at all, but still, Oswald has a point. |
