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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Unban JSL 3
well I'd have liked to see what is the general opinion on JSL, also it would have been interesting to see how many want him back in here, I dont even know why he was banned , I was hoping to learn these things from the original thread. Guess noone thinks csdb is moderated by votes. |
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TWW
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 541 |
+1 |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
With a simple search for example
https://csdb.dk/forums/?forumsearch=jsl
JSL
Long story short: he verbally threatened people via comments and PM, vandalized entries and such things.
I see from the mods forums it was for the better as he was really going nuts in here. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
thanks, I agree with most things hedning is saying there. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2891 |
CSDb isn't moderated by votes, this isn't, and never has been a democracy.
Opening multiple threads, after moderators close the previous threads, is an action that can receive a temporary ban. |
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ron.sos
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 13 |
JSL has stopped drawing on paper and c64.
Opening up CSDB for him is not going to give any NEW releases :-(
The logo used in SoS Summer Meeting 2018 was the last time he touched his c64.
I have spontaneous contact with him and he is not in a good condition.
Closing him out of CSDB was perhaps right,
but it was one of the few things that got him feel that he was someone and not just a sick man.
He lived his life through CSDB and where people knew who he was and saw his pictures.
I don't want to write anything about his illness but his medication did not work at that time :-(
JSL drew a lot and always had to many new ideas and his images became of varying quality.
There could be more than 10 new pictures in one weekend!
He had a hard time seeing what was good and bad he took all the negative criticism personaly due to that. |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
@JSL:
I wish you all the best!!! There are people who miss you and your art! Be strong... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: CSDb isn't moderated by votes, this isn't, and never has been a democracy.
Opening multiple threads, after moderators close the previous threads, is an action that can receive a temporary ban.
full ack, moderators decide on bans. but its nice to discuss this and I see no harm done with this, I really pity the guy, I blame it on mental illness and not see him as a bad person. It was nice to seem him getting some positives from all the nice drawings and crazy output rate.Too bad in the end it turned into what resulted in the ban.
nice to see fex. ron.sos' feedback on JSL. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 511 |
sad to read that about JSL.
now I suggest in a whisper to democratically and moderately close this nice topic and remind the mortals that CSDb is just a database. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2891 |
<Post edited by moderator on 16/8-2019 19:34>
The problem for some of the users that have received a ban here is they won't accept that they created the issue. They continue to blame the staff years after the ban has been in place. Some that come to mind are Buddha, sidwave, and JSL.
If you're on ircnet #c-64 you'd notice JSL joining in May, June, and July. I haven't noticed him lately, but during this time he dumps msgs on people. Here is a sampling of the stuff he is sending to me and groepaz ...
Quote:11:27:50 AM <groepaz__> <Anon666> so you banned jsl with moloch, jsl said to me, that buried jsl.. ;>
11:27:50 AM <groepaz__> <Anon666> he
11:27:50 AM <groepaz__> <Anon666> he has something with hacking.. Anonymous y'know?
11:28:05 AM <groepaz__> * [Anon666] (~jsl[redacted]
11:28:06 AM <groepaz__> >_<
11:29:19 AM <groepaz__> <Anon666> !#113 i am off, WE ARE LEGION. ahah..
11:29:21 AM <groepaz__> >_<
11:39:19 AM <groepaz__> <Anon666> ... finally I was asking if you know jsl, his life is one stressing problem
11:39:22 AM <groepaz__> >_<
11:40:29 AM <@Moloch_> talking in the third person? totally sane!
11:41:17 AM <groepaz__> we are amused
11:41:23 AM <groepaz__> =P
11:53:31 AM <@Moloch_> <Anon666> yo kn'ow. gr'o-!##23415526617.AP.L -189.17.!* GROEPAZ ?
11:53:51 AM <groepaz__> lol
11:56:11 AM <groepaz__> <Anon666> I am Anonymous OPSEC and what r u?
11:56:14 AM <groepaz__> haha
12:25:18 PM <groepaz__> <Anon666> hard times, eh, how's the fish?
12:25:33 PM <groepaz__> suddenly rambones appears sane
12:25:35 PM <groepaz__> >_<
12:25:55 PM <@Moloch_> nothing to exciting here
12:25:56 PM <@Moloch_> <Anon666> silence is the word, eh
12:26:49 PM <groepaz__> i'll tell him who is behind it all, so you can get your fan demo too
12:26:56 PM <groepaz__> =P
12:29:49 PM <@Moloch_> <Anon666> i'll xnec u k'now isec u off..
12:30:20 PM <groepaz__> <Anon666> l8r.7iLLniGHt
12:30:22 PM <groepaz__> OK
[20:06]<Anon666> so you banned jsl with moloch, jsl said to me, that buried jsl.. ;>
[20:12]<Anon666> he
[20:17]<Anon666> he has something with hacking.. Anonymous y'know?
[20:26]* [Anon666] (~jsl[redacted]
[20:26]* [Anon666] #c-64 +#worldchat
[20:26]* [Anon666] irc.us.ircnet.net :United States of America Open Server
[20:26]* [Anon666] idle 00:08:46, signon: Fri May 24 18:33:55
[20:26]* [Anon666] End of WHOIS list.
[20:27]<Anon666> !#113 i am off, WE ARE LEGION. ahah..
[20:30]<Anon666> :<L
[20:37]<Anon666> ... finally I was asking if you know jsl, his life is one stressing problem
[20:54]<Anon666> I am Anonymous OPSEC and what r u?
[21:23]<Anon666> hard times, eh, how's the fish?
[21:26]<Anon666> l8r.7iLLniGHt
[22:59]<Anon666> |
[23:45]<Anon666> saddam?
[23:59]<Anon666> [ O ]
[00:50]<Anon666> wht a7u d0nG'p-N0w_uSUK
11:56:57 AM <groepaz_> <Anon666> hello & welcome
11:56:57 AM <groepaz_> <Anon666> jsl vote 1!!!!
11:56:57 AM <groepaz_> <Anon666> damn stories..
11:56:57 AM <groepaz_> <Anon666> Y T PIK. C yah
1:50:06 PM <groepaz> <Anon666> hi
1:50:06 PM <groepaz> <Anon666> I C U |
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
...Poof we're gone ... Oh wait, I'm not doing scrolltext in a release :P |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4575 |
Quote: JSL has stopped drawing on paper and c64.
Opening up CSDB for him is not going to give any NEW releases :-(
The logo used in SoS Summer Meeting 2018 was the last time he touched his c64.
I have spontaneous contact with him and he is not in a good condition.
Closing him out of CSDB was perhaps right,
but it was one of the few things that got him feel that he was someone and not just a sick man.
He lived his life through CSDB and where people knew who he was and saw his pictures.
I don't want to write anything about his illness but his medication did not work at that time :-(
JSL drew a lot and always had to many new ideas and his images became of varying quality.
There could be more than 10 new pictures in one weekend!
He had a hard time seeing what was good and bad he took all the negative criticism personaly due to that.
Sad to hear how important CSDb was to him, but unfortunately CSDb can't be a psychiatric ward. It's not the main idea with this place. It doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for him (even if I got a lot of hate and crap in my mail box, and ramblings about nazi mods and how corrupt we are by doing what we are supposed to do - which we all are used to. It's standard procedure when people get banned - we get tons of hate and shit for every ban. I can't remember anyone apologizing for anything. What we do get, however, is a tail of querulant activists, other users obsessed with obtaining "justice", that contantly feed the hate against the moderators and CSDb; maybe to look "good" themselves; I dunno. It's a bit tiresome, as we are only humans, and try our best to uphold the rules of this place).
JSL was not banned because anyone hates him, he was banned to protect the other users of this place and the database itself. Same goes for every ban. |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
My first thread and my intention was not to criticise the banning procedure generally.
And btw. i think honestly that the mod's do an awesome job. It's not possible to make all happy. That's out of question.
My thoughts were only:
Is it really necessary to ban people forever (permanent) before at least one temporary ban, even for 1 year?
(And i know, sometimes and we have some bad examples, it's not possible for a temporary ban) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4575 |
<Post edited by hedning on 15/8-2019 17:39>
There is no such thing as a lifelong ban. On the other hand, why let anyone in again without them showing any regrets or understanding why they were banned in the first place? What we usually get is threats and querulant demands to get in again. I think you understand why that is not helping very much. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
And when I asked you to delete my account, it wasn't possible. Now I'm stuck in here for all eternity. Nazi-Mods! ;-)
Honestly, I'm with you on this. If situations change and people show some regret and apologize, why not let them back in. But then, it's been so much more quiet in here without some people's dramas... |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
Steppe: I'm baffled to hear you want to be "deleted" from here, but if anything one just have to not log in for 6 months and his account is automatically closed. We don't ban for just closing an account, a ban must be voted and there should be a good reason for it.
I hope you've changed your mind in any case.
> people show some regret and apologize
that happens very rarely, and when happened, a unban vote decides to admit again the user. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Sure, that's what I've been told (six months no log in), but I'm glad I couldn't make it for that long without my occasional sniff of C64. :-) |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2476 |
@Steppe: Welcome back! |
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The Phantom
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 360 |
Forgiving someone for past actions is a way of life.
I didn't care for too many of the negative comments on JSL's work, but isn't that what commenting is about?
I admit, I HATE when people post negative anythings about my works, and often, it will upset me to the point of a bad comment. I've learned since those days that if you release PUBLICLY, you have to accept ALL FEEDBACK, negative or positive.
Most of all, and this is where JSL has failed. The negative comments are meant as a positive from sceners on how to improve his works. He wasn't a bad artist, just his attitude towards those of us who meant nothing more than to help improve his skills.
I'd vote YES on letting him back on the "base", but with an exception... The attitude needs to go.
I know I'm not one to talk about attitude (right Jon?). Some people know how to get under my skin, but I'd like to think I've changed in that aspect. Negative comments, to me, are a way to improve skills where they need improving. If you cannot handle what someone thinks of your work(s), you shouldn't be releasing. Not everyone will like what you do, and you will always, ALWAYS, get some fool that thinks otherwise about your work. This applies outside our scene too.
I'm all for JSL being unbanned. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1370 |
Eh, the ball is pretty obviously in JSL's court on this one. |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
Quoting The PhantomForgiving someone for past actions is a way of life.
Exactly! <3 |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Hey, this is progress, letting this thread stay open (and I'm not even being sarcastic..!)
But yeah, you can't let back someone who'd screw up the database again, until you're sure they have improved their ways. Even when you feel sorry for the guy. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 421 |
Is there an option just to deny database editing? would it work? |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 548 |
I wasn't around when the troubles started, and don't know JSL, but it sounds like he hasn't accepted fault or apologised as yet... so, whether or not CSDB allows him back, I'd also question whether it's actually good for him to come back if he's not ready - and to be ready, he really needs to be at a point where he can look at people's feedback, good or bad, and not explode about it. I was going to say "get angry" but, hey, we can all do that - the difference is whether we then take that anger and try to rip up the database, right?
Letting him back without being able to make database mods would be a great step - if that functionality can be added (assuming it's not already there) .. but for his own good, he also needs to be able to control his temper. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
I am not personally risking it, I'm not here to keep watch on spoiled brats and I'm not even going to keep wild dogs on leash. I don't have time for this. Other mods can decide, you already have my NO. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Hey JSL, we are talking about you, as if you are a scientific project. This thread should be closed, imo. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
I think it should be deleted. This forum is public and not the right place for discussing someone's mental health IMHO. We already closed two threads but someone kept opening new ones, and see what happened. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
I'm not against closing now, I've learned what I wanted. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4575 |
Quote: I think it should be deleted. This forum is public and not the right place for discussing someone's mental health IMHO. We already closed two threads but someone kept opening new ones, and see what happened.
Makes me wonder: why are they public in the first place? |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
Quoting hedningMakes me wonder: why are they public in the first place?
Which thread(s) do you mean? All 3, including my first one?
( UnBan JSL? ) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 511 |
isn't forum RW for registered users, RO for the whole world? |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4575 |
Quote: isn't forum RW for registered users, RO for the whole world?
Yes. And I wonder why the entire world should be able to read these forums? |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
For me personally this case is more than closed.
Facts are:
1) JSL made mistakes.
2) The mod's decided via votes to ban him.
3) He got a permanent ban because of his mistakes.
4) The mod's are not gonna to unban him anymore.
Nothing to add! |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4575 |
Quote: For me personally this case is more than closed.
Facts are:
1) JSL made mistakes.
2) The mod's decided via votes to ban him.
3) He got a permanent ban because of his mistakes.
4) The mod's are not gonna to unban him anymore.
Nothing to add!
Then you need to read the thread again, dear Shine.
1 and 2 are correct. 3 and 4 are your own ideas. |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
"3) He got a permanent ban because of his mistakes.":
Quoting iAN CooG...Long story short: he verbally threatened people via comments and PM, vandalized entries and such things.
"4) The mod's are not gonna to unban him anymore.":
UnBan JSL?
Maybe you can enlighten me my own mistakes? |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4575 |
Quote: "3) He got a permanent ban because of his mistakes.":
Quoting iAN CooG...Long story short: he verbally threatened people via comments and PM, vandalized entries and such things.
"4) The mod's are not gonna to unban him anymore.":
UnBan JSL?
Maybe you can enlighten me my own mistakes?
Ok. Quoting myself: "There is no such thing as a lifelong ban. On the other hand, why let anyone in again without them showing any regrets or understanding why they were banned in the first place.? What we usually get is threats and querulant demands to get in again. I think you understand why that is not helping very much."
CSDb Shit. Does that look like a mature way of understanding your own shortcomings and the very reason you got banned?
And another thing: Why should we let anyone in again because other people want that? JSL has his own voice, and if he want to contact us, he has all the power to do that himself. We handle grown up (yeah, yeah) people here that could speak for themselves. |
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Carrion
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317 |
Quote: Hey JSL, we are talking about you, as if you are a scientific project. This thread should be closed, imo.
totally agree.
but just adding my 2 €cents...
We love everyone, but if you are threatening a person(s)/scene - then - OUT!
He screwed really bad so no DB access allowed.
If he is still doing pixels to help in with his illness - good for him -and I guess someone could upload them here as ,like it or not, proper c64 scene productions.
all the best to you JSL!
now let's move along... |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4575 |
Quote: totally agree.
but just adding my 2 €cents...
We love everyone, but if you are threatening a person(s)/scene - then - OUT!
He screwed really bad so no DB access allowed.
If he is still doing pixels to help in with his illness - good for him -and I guess someone could upload them here as ,like it or not, proper c64 scene productions.
all the best to you JSL!
now let's move along...
+1 |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
Quoting hedningOk. Quoting myself: "There is no such thing as a lifelong ban. On the other hand, why let anyone in again without them showing any regrets or understanding why they were banned in the first place.? What we usually get is threats and querulant demands to get in again. I think you understand why that is not helping very much."
So that means a permanent ban is for an amount of time only? I can't follow your logic here a bit. You say that there is no "lifelong" ban, but then you doubt that an unban is possible without (deep) understanding, of his own mistakes. Hmm.
Quoting hedningCSDb Shit. Does that look like a mature way of understanding your own shortcomings and the very reason you got banned?
I can understand you... this is not a wise way to get unbanned. People who don't understand are not suited to let in again.
Quoting hedningAnd another thing: Why should we let anyone in again because other people want that? JSL has his own voice, and if he want to contact us, he has all the power to do that himself. We handle grown up (yeah, yeah) people here that could speak for themselves.
I simply asked in the very first thread to think about this permanent ban.
Special case: JSL's ban
General case: Permanent ban
My thoughts are simply as possible:
Is a temporary ban before a permanent ban not better in almost any cases? |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4575 |
Quote: Quoting hedningOk. Quoting myself: "There is no such thing as a lifelong ban. On the other hand, why let anyone in again without them showing any regrets or understanding why they were banned in the first place.? What we usually get is threats and querulant demands to get in again. I think you understand why that is not helping very much."
So that means a permanent ban is for an amount of time only? I can't follow your logic here a bit. You say that there is no "lifelong" ban, but then you doubt that an unban is possible without (deep) understanding, of his own mistakes. Hmm.
Quoting hedningCSDb Shit. Does that look like a mature way of understanding your own shortcomings and the very reason you got banned?
I can understand you... this is not a wise way to get unbanned. People who don't understand are not suited to let in again.
Quoting hedningAnd another thing: Why should we let anyone in again because other people want that? JSL has his own voice, and if he want to contact us, he has all the power to do that himself. We handle grown up (yeah, yeah) people here that could speak for themselves.
I simply asked in the very first thread to think about this permanent ban.
Special case: JSL's ban
General case: Permanent ban
My thoughts are simply as possible:
Is a temporary ban before a permanent ban not better in almost any cases?
<Post edited by hedning on 16/8-2019 21:35>
I just tried to state that we have had no single sign of a sincere try to rejoin csdb since his ban. And you begging is not relevant for the cause at all. So these threads are useless and irrelevant, really.
Example: Would you join the US forces to fight ISIS if enough people voted that you should, or would you like to join by your own free will? |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
I don't begging at all.
I asked only a simple question!
You make a story of it! :) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4575 |
Quoting ShineWhat about to unban JSL after this really long time?
I know, he made big fouls with some of his comments.
But i guess he learned his lesson on this hard way.
I would give him a very last chance. Please think about it. |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
You missed my question:
Quoting Shine...What do you guys think? |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
But i have to agree ... this kind of conversation is not useful. We all have our views. And i can accept others aswell. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 511 |
Quote:Example: Would you join the US forces to fight ISIS if enough people voted that you should, or would you like to join by your own free will?
yeah, useless discussion. but now it's a pity if thread will be deleted, since that example was epic! :) lol. Shine, I vote you should join US-Forces as original supplier :) |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
I usually "crack" my own originals by myself. I don't give it to Trump. He has more money than me... :) |
