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2007-09-12 18:35

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034

Mac, Win, Linux etc.

User Comment
Submitted by Sledge [PM] on 9 September 2007
Now, all I really miss is a Mac OS X version of this painter ;)

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 10 September 2007
Yeah, this Windows-only bullshit needs to stop! Elitepaint, Timanthes, Starcommander, OxPaint, CCS64 - What the fuck is wrong with a little crossplattform support? Don't we as c64- sceners know exactly what it's like to be part of a non-supported minority?
Just use Java, QT, RealBASIC or some other crossplatform toolchain for christ's sake, it's not a science anymore these days!

User Comment
Submitted by JackAsser [PM] on 10 September 2007
for OUR sake, not for christ's sake... :D

User Comment
Submitted by Style [PM] on 10 September 2007
Agreed dk. For now Ill sit here with my Ubuntu box crying into my cornflakes :)

User Comment
Submitted by Scout [PM] on 10 September 2007
For the penguin lovers: Install Wine?

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 10 September 2007
"What the fuck is wrong with a little crossplattform support?"

I tell you what the fuck is wrong with it. It would need to learn a new language and port over 10.000 lines of code in the case of p1. thats wrong with it. that would be 2x-3x all the effort invested so far, to support a minority.

User Comment
Submitted by hollowman [PM] on 10 September 2007
i guess the lack of crossplatform support says something about the users of the other platforms, or the suggested languages and frameworks

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 10 September 2007
Hollow, could you stop pissing on my leg at every possible chance for a change? Thank you! ;-)

Oswald: Why'd you write it without crossplattform in mind in the first place?
That's the problem - People don't think about their choice of tools before they start coding, and then they say it's too much work to port their stuff afterwards!
RealBASIC and especially Java are extremely rich languages these days, I can't think of anything that a c64 image editor or Converter would need that's not supplied!
Or just make your own GUI using SDL like Goattracker or Raydomat, it's fully portable without ANY hassle!

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 10 September 2007
Deekay: because I was unaware of the fact that many ppl doesnt use win, and because I had zero knowledge of modern languages when I have started out and because p1 started out as a little tool for Jailbird wich only knows koala and only can set pixels. anyways according to dcmp p1 works in wine, except one issue which could be fixed imho if the zoom mode would reside in a child window. I think you should try wine regarding 0xpaint aswell. there are chances it will work.

Hearhearhear!

User Comment
Submitted by radiantx [PM] on 10 September 2007
If you want crossplatform tools then make them. That's all there is to it, really. You could bug the coders for the sourcecode and then port it to your favourite cross-platform lib if you wish, but demanding that other people care about whatever platform you're on when they are developing software for free is a bit rash IMO, especially when the projects often start out on a small scale as Oswald examplified.

User Comment
Submitted by Scout [PM] on 10 September 2007
Quote:
demanding that other people care about whatever platform you're on when they are developing software for free is a bit rash IMO

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 10 September 2007
<irony>
I'm sorry if I offended anyone by releasing a windows only tool.
</irony>

:)

I don't know why I need to explain or defend myself, but still; This tool (like Oswald's) was developed for a very small audience. In this case myself. I made it because I wanted a tool that suited my own needs, and in 2003 there were fewer choices than there is today. (Was there any besides ElitePaint?) Also, I wanted the tool fast, and used VB 6.0 since that language gives fast results. At least for me, since I worked with VB on a daily basis.

@Deekay: I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but I get the feeling that you're upset because I didn't have other platforms than Windows in mind when developing this tool. Or perhaps your thinking was in a general sense? Anyway, in this case I didn't develop the tool for you. Only for me. My alternative to releasing it to the public was simply not releasing it. And then noone would benefit from it, and this discussion would never take place. Good thing?

If anyone tries to emulate, please let me know if it works, or not. Thanks!

User Comment
Submitted by Frantic [PM] on 10 September 2007
@Oxidy: Thumbs up for the nice explanations. Some people have to learn not to take stuff for granted.

User Comment
Submitted by Sixx/f4CG [PM] on 10 September 2007
Linux sucks.

User Comment
Submitted by hannenz [PM] on 11 September 2007
looks good - but - hey - i am another linux user.... i don't want to spill oil in the fire here but: anyone tried under wine?! is it working without too much effort?

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 11 September 2007
I'd like to apologize to Oxidy. I did not mean this as a personal attack, it was a general rant on the state of xdev-software in the c64 scene! I'm just really fed up with seeing yet another Windows-only tool that I can't use, that's all!...
So Windows-using c64-Gfxians can now choose between ProMotion, ProjectOne, Elitepaint, Timanthes and OxPaint - MacOS Users get zilch, the only thing that is remotely a pixelling tool (not primarily for c64 though) is Pixen!

I've heard this reasoning time and time again - "I've only done something for myself and I'm sorry it uses .NET/DirectX/VisualBasic/proprietaryM$shit6430, so it only runs on Windows" - Witness what the industry calls "Vendor Lock-in". Why are you using their technologies when you know it's proprietary? Do your Webpages also only work on IE? Well, why not, it's the most popular browser, who gives a shit about Firefox and Safari!
In the c64 scene there's more users of alternative operating systems then in the general public. Maybe you should think for just a second before choosing your tools next time?
Other people seem to be able to do it, even Windows-users! WvLs Pinball Dreams tools are made in Java, so is Crossbows Demosorter. Why do you think they teach Java at Uni and not proprietary M$ technologies? Hell, even for the stuff i programmed myself for my Job (and had programmed!) i made sure it's portable (BASH-scripting, Imagemagick and Java), and that was a completely fixed environment! But who knows what the future holds, it's always good to atleast have the option of switching the OS!
Strangely enough, people that make Software for alternative OSses always seem to have no problem supporting Windows, too! Just think of VICE for a start! So why shouldn't it work the other way around? ;-)

After all the ranting here's something productive: RealBASIC can import VisualBASIC projects. You can then compile for Windows, MacOS X and Linux! Would be cool if you could give it a try!

Oh, and btw, about bitching and moaning about free stuff: ALL the stuff on CSDB is free, so by your reasoning this means I cannot complain about anything.. Besides: We put shitloads of time into making our editors and releasing them for free, too, thank you very much - And guess what: Contrary to Windows-only shit *every* c64-user can use them! 8)

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 11 September 2007
deekay, give me realbasic and we'll see ;)

User Comment
Submitted by Skate [PM] on 11 September 2007
nice tool, unnecessary discussion.

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 11 September 2007
No problem DeeKay. I can understand your frustation.

I've never used RealBASIC, but I'm downloading atm, and will take a look at it.

User Comment
Submitted by radiantx [PM] on 11 September 2007
First of all: Java is slow and bloated as fuck so it's not really an option for someone like me who actually cares about performance (and I imagine I'm not the only one in the C64 scene). It's bad enough I have to expose myself to it at work. I can appreciate the language as such, but unless you're coding heavy server stuff something even more high level, like Python, is more suitable (feels about as slow, but is much easier to develop in). Please, no Java applications.

That being said, I personally don't understand why so many people have favoured unportable solutions. It's almost as if they have just picked the first technology they happened to stumble upon and stuck with it, instead of making an informed choice of toolkit etc. Most multiplatform toolkits are much easier to work with than doing native Win32 code.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 11 September 2007
"It's almost as if they have just picked the first technology they happened to stumble upon and stuck with it" - exactly my case :) anyways what do you expect this is not the software industry, just a bunch of hobbysts trying to make some tools.

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 11 September 2007
I wouldn't call Visual Basic native win32 code. Eventhough you can chose to compile as native, rather than pseudo code.

What multiplatform toolkit is easier than VB? I can't think of one.

Regardless, the discussion is getting dull.

User Comment
Submitted by Hein [PM] on 11 September 2007
Deekay, how much does a second hand PC with *free* Windows cost these days?

Stop crying like a spoiled kid, please, geesh, start pixeling!

User Comment
Submitted by Fatfrost [PM] on 11 September 2007
Deekay, why don't you just install windows on your Mac? or do you have a poo old g5/4/???
i have vista and osx on the same machine,and on vista
project one works fine.
Cheer up. lol.

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Hein, Fatfrost: Has it ever occurred to you that not using Windows is not a matter of not being able to afford it but rather a choice? And no, I will never ever buy way overpriced mainstream-Intel-Shit from Apple - and even if I did i wouldn't install Windows on it, just like i never installed Virtual PC! I'm using a Mac to get AWAY from Windows (and Intel), what's so hard to understand about that?

Why is it always only the Windows-users, for whom everything is fine and dandy, that think this discussion is "pointless"?

Oxidy: Thanks for trying RealBASIC! Let us know how it goes! ;-) There's a multitude of RB-extensions for every possible need, I would venture a guess many of them replicate certain special VB-features!

As for Potatoshop: I've used this for pixelling before (right now working on the PD-gfx f.ex.), and it does work. However, for everything regarding color-limitations you have to put it through a converter and then fix the converter bugs again - that hassle can be avoided if you use a real pixelling program made for c64 limitations such as Elitepaint, P1 or Oxpaint!
And as for Java being slow: First of all modern Java-compilers are pretty decent, second: What kind of performance do you think a program needs that's almost entirely about setting single pixels? Third: There's Java2D and -Imaging classes that should be pretty useful (and fast) for jobs like this!

User Comment
Submitted by Trazan [PM] on 12 September 2007
About time to move this OS/Platform war to a forumthread instead of arguing in the comments about the release itself.

User Comment
Submitted by conrad [PM] on 12 September 2007
I agree, this is just getting way out of hand now. Go babble about OS's on a PC gamer forum instead rather than here.

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Where'd you get the idea that this is a "OS/platform war"? Is a discussion about racial equality a "race war"? Is a discussion about women's rights a "gender war"?
Why exactly should we not have this discussion here, what would be the point of having it in some "PC Gamer forum"? Games are commercial and cost millions to develop, both of which isn't true for the c64 scene!
And no, I won't take it to the forums, it's right here where it belongs..

I'd venture a guess both of you are using Windows.. It's always so annoying, isn't it, those bitchy people not using the OS-with-abundant-software that you're using complaining about the lack of software support!.. You just don't know what it's like and frankly you just don't give a flying fuck! That's what is generally referred to as "ignorance", and as they say, it *is* bliss after all, right?

User Comment
Submitted by JackAsser [PM] on 12 September 2007
@deekay: "And as for Java being slow: First of all modern Java-compilers are pretty decent, second: What kind of performance do you think a program needs that's almost entirely about setting single pixels? Third: There's Java2D and -Imaging classes that should be pretty useful (and fast) for jobs like this!"

I completely agree and favor Java as the cross platform language of choice. And as for Java being bloat I can agree at some points but on the other hand the redistributable JRE take approx 15Mb. It's not THAT much for anyone. You don't need the JDK to run Java software.

To compare:

The Python windows installer takes about 10Mb.

qt pre-compiled binaries from Trolltech are not free so you need the free open source which is 47.6Mb + mingw which is 69.1Mb.

I know I'm really biased here but really, is Java THAT bloat and slow as people tend to claim compared to other so called cross-platform languages?

User Comment
Submitted by Sander [PM] on 12 September 2007
'What's so hard to understand about that?' - that you're being demanding over someone else's (free) work? None ever asked any atari group to port a demo to c64, just because we CHOSE not to buy an atari..

I always sense a little war to win with every opportunity the iKnow-people feel neglected. So i second Hein, on you being a spoiled kid; it's like you want to take the bus, but you want it to drive by your house...

User Comment
Submitted by radiantx [PM] on 12 September 2007
JackAsser: I work with it. It's shit slow. Just starting up a program takes forever, and the jvm eats up huuuge amounts of memory just for running a small commandline tool. There are a few areas that Java isn't very suited for. Normal desktop use is one.

User Comment
Submitted by d0c [PM] on 12 September 2007
i hate java its like a magnet, it sucks all the viruses to the os that uses it, specially the windows os. as this aint enough it also suck cpu, i once liked java but today i dont. i hope Oxidy continue to use what he use now and dont use java.

User Comment
Submitted by conrad [PM] on 12 September 2007
DK:
Actually I DO give a flying fuck. Personally I don't like how Microsoft is pushing their OS's, but unfortunately (or in the UK anyway) PC's are it's system origin and that we have to follow up on their next version, which makes me sick.... the fucking greedy cunts they are!

Like when I was at school (and now at uni), all systems there are PCs only, which therefore I have no choice but to have a PC at home to transfer my work.... see how difficult it is? And hell no I'm not spending another £1000 or more to get a system that's incompatible with my current storage and projects.

Well, for that matter I just cannot confirm that I don't care about OS's, life is hard isn't it?

Personally I blame Gates and Jobs for all these arguments.

User Comment
Submitted by Fatfrost [PM] on 12 September 2007
Have you tried 'Parallels' for osx? you can run windows progs in that. or was it another prog...well one of them works coz i ran some pc demos with it on a g5 (power pc)....but if oxidy will be kind enough to release source code maybe someone would kindly include it in a vice distro! just imagine a cross development version of vice with pixeler,sprit ed and music ed+ assembler, which would allow you to try your creations out instantly, that way an osx port would always happen and everyone is happy, oh wait...i forgot it's c64 scene, no-ones happy....lol ;-\ just critical mothers......

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Sander: I sure hope the irony of you calling me a spoiled brat doesn't escape you, when in fact is is you Windows-users who get ALL the xdev-software, all the Emulators, all the software you could ever need while MacOS-Users basically get nothing (some notable exceptions!)...
Please, do tell me just in how far I am "spoiled", I'm dying to know!...
Your comparison of an Atari Demo is completely wrong. This is a tool for c64-users - why should not every c64 user be able to use it? If someone does a demo or tool on c64 that does not run on 1541-IIs for some reason, people do bitch and moan and there'll be a fixed version out within hours, that's the way it goes and it's happened multiple times in the past! So what exactly is the difference here?

And please refrain from pigeonholing me as "the iKnow people". Multiple Linux-users agreed with me here, in what drawer do you want to squeeze them in? Besides: I hate Apple more than any PC-user right now probably, but I still think OS X is the smallest pile of shit of them all! ;-)
As for the bus driving by my house: I want to be able to take the bus AT ALL, but I can't. That's the problem!... I don't think all the people that write Windows-only xdev tools intended me to buy a new computer just for their software - If yes, that'd be the epitome of ignorance!...
One final word on Java: Java isn't as slow and bloated as it used to be. It does need quite a bit of RAM, but performance is surprisingly good. Don't tell me, I know what I'm talking about, I've had a Java GUI program developed for professional needs and it had to be fast and responsive and it was!
And this comment about Java sucking virusses is complete bullshit. Compared to Win32-based Visusses the number of Java-virusses is ridiculously small, furthermore with a current JRE they probably shouldn't work anyway...

Summing up: This vendor lock-in bullshit has to stop somewhere. And I'd say something non-commercial like the c64-scene would be one of many places to start it!.. ;-)

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 12 September 2007
"This vendor lock-in bullshit has to stop somewhere."

exactly. stop locking away yourself of zillions of great c64 tools. use win atleast as an alternative.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 12 September 2007
java sucks because many ppl have to do administrating jobs in java based client-server setup style enviroment which fucking sucks and sucking fucks, and believe me you would rather have 27 headshots than touch that kind of shitty stinky ugly motherfucking piece of prg, which sends your input over 3000km to a server which tells you after 7 seconds back that you can stick up your input in your smelly warm ass. also it forces you to have 3 window opened just to keep it runing, and takes 1 minute to start it up. I hate java because all of that. :)

User Comment
Submitted by conrad [PM] on 12 September 2007
Oswald: \o/! chill out man, but thanks for your honesty. ;)

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Oswald: Well, we're not talking about server-sided Java, thank you very much. We're talking about standalone programs. You know, the kind that I had made, which launched in like 3 seconds and was extremely responsive! Can we stop the incoherent Java-bashing now, this is really quite offtopic!

User Comment
Submitted by Sander [PM] on 12 September 2007
Daniel, Since you made a 'fundamental' choice not to use anything intel related, you inevitably limit yourself from many things, as widely known. Such a principle is a luxury choice imho.

The comparison to the atari demo was not wrong, as the tools were made on a specific platform too. The uber-compatibility idea is feasible due to the limited number of c-64 hardware, and it's not that standard at all. Taking this idea to non-c64-based tools, is a different thing - whereas people will work with the languages and environments they know, it sounds like you try to force them doing different.

And i'm sorry for using the 'iKnow'-word, it was too tempting ;) No offence.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 12 September 2007
deekay, conrad, I just tryed to light you up why some ppl dislike java ;) I believe aswell its fast and kewl offline. saw quite some great demo-fx-test-tools from jackasser / bubis and they were charming but still those administrative softwares makes me shiver whenever java enters my mind :)

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 12 September 2007
*sigh* :)

Regarding Java:
The discussion is heated as it is, and no more wood is needed on the fire. But I don´t like Java that much, and I can say with certainty that I won't convert 0xPaint to Java.

Regarding REALbasic:
I've installed it and done some brief testing with the conversion tool. I got hundreds of errors and todo's. It's not as easy as I first anticpated. Also, the concept of MDI (multi document interface) is not supported "as such" in REALbasic. You can add a class with MDIWindow properties, but can't have a base window containing other forms. I'll have to rethink the design if I'm to move forward with this. Normally I wouldn't give this much further thought, and would have continues with VB only. However, REALbasic intrigues me a bit. At least enough to experiment with it further.

@Higgie: Thanks for your input.
* Right mouse button pen bug noted. Will fix.
* Drawing ouside zoom mode. I actually like this "feature", and think the pros outweigh the cons.
* The key movement problem in the zoom window is something I don't get. It works as expected in my end. Perhaps we can discuss that in more detail over IRC or something.

@Archmage:
Believe it or not, but I don't have a mouse-wheel on my mouse. :)
Setting the palette is a reasonable request. Currently I've used the exact palette used in VICE. Whether this is the most accurate or not, I don't know. But I guess not.

@Oswald:
"smelly warm ass" haha.. you've always been good with words.

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Oxidy: You make me a happy little DeeKay! ;-) Just try it, if it doesn't fly that'd suck, but atleast you did try, and I'm grateful for that already! ;-) If you need any beta-testing for the OS X build, let me know! So far I've done all I could for anybody willing to port any c64-related software to OS X, be it beta-testing, Icon-Design or else..

Sander: It's not a "luxury choice", it's a political one. Just like some people don't buy brand X because they don't want to support a certain company for whatever reason (unethical behaviour, exploitation of poor countries, environmental issues etc). Speaking of "luxury": What do you think is more luxurious? Windows with P1, ProMotion, Elitepaint, Timanthes and OxPaint or MacOS X with Pixen? 8)
I don't quite see in how far I limit myself through not using Windows and especially Intel (when there's AMD). In fact there's a shitload of commercial software packages and Shareware for OS X. One of the few fields that's left where it's seriously lacking is surprisingly enough homebrew xdev c64-stuff! Hell, i can get more crossplattform homebrew stuff for Dreamcast and Gamecube than I can for c64! If that's not sad, i don't know what is!
The Atari comparison remains completely wrong, because an Atari Demo is not c64-related in any way, hence there'd be no point in demanding a c64-version!
I'm not forcing anyone to use anything, I'm just trying to tell them they'd force ME to use Windows if i want to use their program by offering only a Windows-version! Completely different thing!
Besides, I'm not saying "you have to use environment X". Like said, there's a multitude of ways to go crossplatform: RealBASIC, Java, Python, QT, WxWidgets, SDL and many more.. Just don't use proprietary vendor lock-in shit, everything else is fine by me!
All I'm asking for is that people think just for a minute about portability before starting their own c64-xdev-projects! Is that really too much to ask for? It's not like RealBASIC is any harder to code than VisualBASIC!... Or that Java is harder than C++! Or OpenGL is harder than DirectX! It's just a bit different in some respects, that's all!

User Comment
Submitted by wile coyote [PM] on 12 September 2007
@iAN CooG 'occupies a shitload of HD space' - I have 2x Samsung 120GB Hardrives, so space isn't really an isuue :)

As for the arguement over Apple vs PC. Well I have to admit, I wished I'd brought an Apple in the first place. Until my Windows XP becomes obsolete, I'm stuck with it. Maybe then I will make the switch.

On a side note: I have a feeling Sony could be working on an operating system of their own. It's already on the Playstation 3. Given time, I sure the day will come when Sony will announce they have their own take on Windows that will be superior to MS Windows. This I would like to see. Watch MS share prices nose dive :D

... 143 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2007-09-15 15:22

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

My "reasoning" for using Windows is as follows:

Aside from every day web browsing etc. I'm mostly interested in doing design/graphics and making music.

Software on Linux for this kind of thing is limited, which leaves Windows or MacOS.

If I want to use MacOS, I need to buy a Mac Pro at well over £1000 UK pounds. If I want to use Windows I can build up a high spec machine for around £600 UK pounds.

Therefore I chose Windows.

The rest is irrelevant to me. I really couldn't give a shit about all of the corporate arguements. Microsoft, Apple, Adobe (since you started mentioning rivals to Flash and PDF) are all in it for the money, are all making millions and are all ripping off their users in their own way. I'll let them worry about who controls what, it makes no difference to my life and it seemingly saves me a lot of anger and frustration!

Whilst you continue this arguement, I will now use my Windows only software to pixel some happy things! rainbows, bunny rabbits, sunshine...aah!

2007-09-15 15:36

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017

"Why should I not have the freedom of choice? Just because some people don't sit down and think for a minute before choosing their tools when they make some homebrew xdev stuff?"

translation:

"I dont give a rabbit shit about how much work it is. My freedom is more important than anyone else's. Idiots go and port over your tools for me. Even if it takes 1000x more effort than me using windows. Go slaves and code for MY freedom, your freedom doesnt matters at all when its about my convienience"

2007-09-15 15:42

Sander

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 487

Enough bullshit. The key issue is;
"are c64 sceners obligated to support different platforms?"

Well Daniel, without hiding behind all this bullshit - answer this with (Y) or (N).

2007-09-15 16:02

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Quote: DeeKay: first of all: STFU!

now on to the point.

you keep bitching about MS, but Apple is just as evil. for example, iPod uses proprietary software to transfer music (iTunes), which uses a proprietary audio codec (.m4a or so). the latest patches also make sure you can NOT use any alternatives to transfer music, or to run on your iPod.

Apple hates open source. they where once cool, but nowadays, they are becoming more and more CEB's (( Cocky Elite Bastards )).

Also, no-one has ever forced you to use existing tools. You need a program like ProjectOne badly? then code your own, or just put up with the fact that you'll have to use Windows.

Linus Torvalds said that he uses "...the best tool for the job, even if that includes proprietary software.", and I totally agree on this.
Sure, I hate Windows too, and I try to avoid it wherever possible. but if it gets the job done, I'll use it.

Just, for once, try to not be so ignorant. People code these tools in their free time, for fun(?), so they are in NO WAY obligated to port their software.

------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude
http://hardwarehacks.untergrund.net/zomgwtfbbq/index.php

"STFU"? Excuse me? Can you tone it down a little bit?

Obviously you missed the posting(s) where i said that i hate Apple more than the PC-User these days. And that I'm not arguing for Apple, but for MacOS X, which is quite a different thing.
Actually the reason why I "fell from grace" _is_ that they've become "Cocky Elite Bastards", in case you're wondering... So calm down, Bronco, we're still in the same ballpark! ;-)

I've heard the "best tool for the job" reasoning time and time again, but I just don't follow it. If everyone did, there would be NO ports for alternative operating systems or native software that does a job previously only possible in Windows - because there'd be simply zero demand, has that thought ever occurred to you?
It's just not feasible as a "categorical imperative for software". If everyone thought like that, there'd be NO mplayer, there'd be NO VLC, NO DeCSS, NO iPod-Tools for Linux _at all_, NO alternative opensource device drivers for vendor-binaries (and hence NOTHING for LinuxPPC!) etc/pp! All this software was done because Linux-Users wanted to do something that was only possible using other operating systems - back then "the better tools for the job", obviously!

I'll give you an example from my personal experience: I am working as a hobby with surround audio. Now the only TWO programs for OS X that can deal with DTS are VLC (only versions prior to 0.8, DTS threatened the Uni paris with legal action if they didn't remove their reverse-engineered opensource DTSdec) and Apples DVD Studio Pro, which can encode a DTS-stream.
I could've just taken the easy way out and downloaded some codec-pack for Windows and used one of the gazillion Windows-only tools, but I didn't. I found some sourcecode to decode DTS into 6-channel WAVs and worked with a friend to get it running under OS X, then i wrote my own shell scripts to batch process it and make mp3-surround audio from it. Now there IS an alternative for OS X (I'll release it soon after i've made a GUI for it and properly multithreaded it! ;-). If I hadn't done this, there wouldn't be.

Think your stuff through for crying out loud - then post! ;-)

You can call me many things, but "ignorant" is something i take great offense in. Everybody in the c64 scene does things for fun in their free time, but that doesn't mean they're excempt from public scrutiny. We've been through that point way way early in the thread already...
I never said anyone is "obligated" to do anything. If they choose only to support Windows, fine, but I'm just as much entitled to voice my anger about this then!

2007-09-15 16:08

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Quote: "Why should I not have the freedom of choice? Just because some people don't sit down and think for a minute before choosing their tools when they make some homebrew xdev stuff?"

translation:

"I dont give a rabbit shit about how much work it is. My freedom is more important than anyone else's. Idiots go and port over your tools for me. Even if it takes 1000x more effort than me using windows. Go slaves and code for MY freedom, your freedom doesnt matters at all when its about my convienience"

Sorry, little princess, if I stepped on your foot! ;-)
Your "translation" is what you want to hear, not what I said...

In fact I've quoted many examples of toolchains you can use. Yes, there actually is "freedom of choice" in crossplatform development, something users of M$-Toolchains might not be very familiar with..
And no, if you choose crossplatform alternatives it is NOT more work than with the proprietary M$-Toolchain.
Obviously, it's now too late for P1, since the code is Windows-only already. All I'm asking for is that for the NEXT project, you just _could_ think for a minute before choosing your tools! ;-) Is that really too much to ask for?

2007-09-15 16:10

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Quote: Enough bullshit. The key issue is;
"are c64 sceners obligated to support different platforms?"

Well Daniel, without hiding behind all this bullshit - answer this with (Y) or (N).

Morally obliged - I'd say yes. But since it's moral, everybody has to answer this question for himself!

And thanks for calling my writing "bullshit"! ;-) It's good to know you respect me so much! 8)
And yes, before you gloat: I did say "bullshit" in this thread aswell, but atleast I had the decency to adress everything and show WHY I think it's bullshit - and not just ignore it. That's because I respect my opponents! ;-)

2007-09-15 18:13

Stainless Steel

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966

This discussion is so Whats with all the hate. We need some more of this.

Where's vanja when you need her.

2007-09-15 18:28

Cruzer

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048

Now STFU everyone and start doing some stuff for the platform we can all agree on as the most rulzoring one! :)

And if you absolutely have to do some cross-platform stuff, then please please think a little about not locking it too much to a specific OS. It also helps yourself, since it makes it more future-proof.

2007-09-15 18:42

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933

sweat, sweat, work, work, pixel, pixel... grmbl... click, click, poke, poke...

2007-09-15 19:41

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017

Deekay,

The problem is that you only think from the user's perspective. However its not like that every c64 scener has the knowledge, and has access for crossplatform toolchains. Speaking of myself I'm _still_ in the learning phase regarding VB. I'm just starting to grasp the deeper concepts of modern programming, working in an OS enviroment, OOP, etc etc. I dont do coding for a living you see?

It's not only about the decision of which toolchain/language. Its _first_ about your knowledge and accessiblity.

Anyway I'll look into wine compatibility when I'll finish the next p1 release. from the wine bug reports it looks like there are only minor issues.