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Forums > Requests > Last call for VICE MacOS devs
2018-08-03 21:24
Compyx

Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 399
Last call for VICE MacOS devs

For the last time I'll be asking if anyone with any MacOS knowledge can step up and help with VICE development.

Right now the whole MacOS mess is in danger of being completely ignored from now on, or even deleted.
What we require are (obviously) devs with knowledge of MacOS; knowledge of either SDL2 or Gtk3 is nice, but not required, we can help with that.

Basically, my VICE mailing list post says it all:

***

Hello fellow devs, and hopefully people who know something about MacOS,


After constantly running into horseshit when it comes to Gtk3 on MacOS (and MacOS in general), I'm once again asking for people with knowledge of MacOS (ie not me) to step up and help out with the Gtk3 MacOS port.

There are a lot of issues to fix with Gtk3 on MacOS, and my knowledge is very lacking when it comes to MacOS. So as it stands now, Gtk3 on MacOS is stillborn and will remain so. I'm already working on Gtk3 on Linux and Windows (another system I despise and which we also don't have any active devs for), so I'm personally done with MacOS.

So in short: unless we get some devs who actually want to put in some work (complaining on IRC about how shitty this or that is, and then doing nothing about it, doesn't count), MacOS users can use SDL2 and like it, though apparently make bindist for MacOS SDL doesn't work either :)


Most likely having completely wasted my time and bandwidth, sincerely,

Compyx

***
 
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2018-08-05 20:59
Mirage

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 108
I'm curious, is Gtk3 a GL abstraction layer that's going to keep on working? As far as I know Apple are trying their best to move osX over to Metal/2 completely?

Like I said, I'm just curious. If the answer is too long or noone replies I'll google it myself.
2018-08-05 21:49
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1458
Quote: I'm curious, is Gtk3 a GL abstraction layer that's going to keep on working? As far as I know Apple are trying their best to move osX over to Metal/2 completely?

Like I said, I'm just curious. If the answer is too long or noone replies I'll google it myself.


Gtk3 has nothing to do with GL per se. GTK is a UI-framework including toolkit that is platform independent and handles input, widgets, timers and all sorts of thing you need when creating desktop applications.

It's an extremely well chosen library to use to minimise the work of maintaining several UIs and instead just focus on one, that runs on all major targets. Imo it was either GTK3 or QT that were viable. VICE team chose GTK3.

Gtk3 unfortunately is a bit so so on mac OS and really needs a helping hand.
2018-08-05 22:57
Compyx

Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 399
Gtk is indeed the best choice for VICE, since VICE is written in C (ignoring resid) and most of the devs either don't know C++ well enough or plain dislike it.

Personally, if VICE had been a C++ project, I would have gone for Qt, I've used it lot from Python. If there's any codebase that can actually use OOP, it is UI code. Gtk is also very much OOP-ish, but actually inheriting from any Gtk "class" is an unholy mess.
So my code uses composition and a whole bunch of "methods" and "properties" implemented in C to provide some useful "classes" to build the UI on top of.

Still, using Gtk isn't always smooth, it gets progressively worse from Linux/BSD to Windows to MacOs :)
2018-08-06 07:17
oziphantom

Registered: Oct 2014
Posts: 227
Yeah OpenGL is now flagged as depreciated on macOS/iOS/tvOS/watchOS so at some point OpenGL will just fail to init and programs will just crash.
2018-08-06 09:25
Mirage

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 108
Woops, sorry - I know gtk is a UI toolkit, just didn't know the connection with GL, if any.

Just thought it was curious to ask for a GL implementation when GL is deprecated and going to be removed.
Maybe CoreGL is still going to be supported on macOS, which is what I was uncertain of?
2018-08-06 09:26
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1458
Quote: right now the rendering isnt even the biggest problem. that is "just" slow - but at least it works :)

I just checked the bug tracker and the bugs related to Mac OS X were few actually. What are the major problems in your opinion other than sluggish rendering and non-deterministic build system?
2018-08-06 13:12
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8842
for example the file-open dialog just crashes :) and indeed, the build system. and the binary packaging. etc

(no bugs reported? LOOOOOOOL. yeah that means a lot. especially for macOS, where we have all those people testing things =D)

regarding GL - there will be wrappers that map GL to metal, i am pretty sure. without them macOS will just fade away, or at least will become largely irrelevant for everyone developing software that isnt macOS exclusive. (you already noted autodesk pulled the trigger, i guess. others will follow)
2018-08-06 13:57
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1458
Quote: for example the file-open dialog just crashes :) and indeed, the build system. and the binary packaging. etc

(no bugs reported? LOOOOOOOL. yeah that means a lot. especially for macOS, where we have all those people testing things =D)

regarding GL - there will be wrappers that map GL to metal, i am pretty sure. without them macOS will just fade away, or at least will become largely irrelevant for everyone developing software that isnt macOS exclusive. (you already noted autodesk pulled the trigger, i guess. others will follow)


Right ok. Thanks for the insights. Regarding GL you’re absolutly right and bothing to worry about (and as you said the slowness today in not even a show stopper)
2018-08-06 17:15
oziphantom

Registered: Oct 2014
Posts: 227
when they move to the ARM based Macs will be the point they did most of the old stuff and kill most of the translation layers etc.
2018-08-06 17:16
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 8842
lol, wont happen in the near future :)
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