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Forums > Requests > PDS (Programmers Development System) software
2010-03-26 09:22
Morpheus

Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 144
PDS (Programmers Development System) software

Hello guys!

Does anyone have a working copy of the ancient PDS (Programmers Development System) software to share?
2010-03-26 12:26
Groepaz
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
i have the pc part somewhere .... wth are you planning to do with it? :)
2010-03-26 14:08
Morpheus

Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 144
Two old games guys are thinking about finishing an old game of theirs, and they still have the system. Any help is appreciated!
2010-03-26 14:29
Groepaz
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
i would think its a much better idea to convert the sources to some more modern cross-assembler and use that ... the pds.exe doesnt work in modern OS anyway (win98 or older required)
2010-03-26 14:57
Morpheus

Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 144
Any ideas of how to do this?
2010-03-26 15:11
Groepaz
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
mmmh good question, the sources look like regular (dos) textfiles, plus some extra stuff. probably some kind of konverter could be written for that *shrug*
2010-03-26 15:31
hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 471
Looks like Sailor and Iopop has some experience with pds stuff: http://gtw64.retro-net.de/Pages/t/Review_Tygertyger.php
2010-03-26 15:40
Groepaz
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
simply "extracting" the source (as they call it in that gtw article) is pretty trivial infact.... open the file in a texteditor, remove the junk at the beginning and the bottom, done :) not sure what kind of info is stored there and what you will use, might be (unneeded) symbol info etc
2010-03-28 01:02
Twoflower

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 424
Iopop and Sailor are the guys to contact in this case. If I remember correctly, Tyger Tyger isn't the only source they have converted from PDS into something which current cross-assemblers can handle.
2010-03-28 02:46
Moloch

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2015
I'm aware who is currently looking and he has figured out a way to find the c64 transfer end ... it's actually in his old projects. It's about 150 bytes and will rip it out with a monitor.

Crimson Twilight Dev Updates [C64 CRPG]
2010-03-28 11:26
sailor

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 68
Hello,

I have the PDS software for both PC and C64.. Unfortunately without its hardware its useless (custom ISA card communicating with the c64). IIRC The package includes xasm for Z80, Amstrad CPC..

The PC-software itself requires an old DOS version and an old processorfamily. (PC XT?). I think i got the software running but it went out searching for the ISA card so it was not of much help.

These are just vague memories, i might be wrong, i might have missed something.. I also have seen different variations of PDS sources(with and without the junk in the beginning), perhaps there are different hardware requirements too.

anyhow.. To get a program running, I'd recommend you to convert it (as already said). Some (personal) best practice notes on the way:

* Remove the "junk bytes" in the beginning.
* You need to merge the 6-7 files somehow (copy/include).
* You need translate the sources(syntaxes etc).
* DASM has worked best so far, some other xasms have failed to build big sources.


I also found a (more or less) PDS-compatible compiler for modern PC;s. It managed to compile some smaller sources, but it failed on the larger ones.

If someone could make a CSDB entry for "PDS software" or something alike, i'd gladly upload the software.

It might sound easier than it is though, but it all depends on what you got in your hands.

Tyger Tyger for example did not run at all, we had to guess what was missing and where, and what the output of the PDS sources was meant to be.

The Bubbler, on the other hand, was complete but hard to translate due to the complexity of the sources. Luckily Matt Young (the original programmer) was involved. He knew both PDS(syntaxes) and 6502-asm.

I think some other stuff in PDS-format has surfaced from the Onslaught factory lately, there might be some useful information as well.

Regards
Jani

2010-03-28 12:00
Groepaz
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
Quote:
I have the PDS software for both PC and C64..

yes, same here. i have als loose contact to someone (who might want to speak up here or not) who has a working pds setup. (i could forward the one or other question if needed)

Quote:
Unfortunately without its hardware its useless (custom ISA card communicating with the c64).

the card actually isnt all that "custom" - it is a simple EPP printer port :) DATEL sold the same card much later as "commslink" for use with their psx action replay. the software itself should even work when patched to use the i/o adresses for a regular pc printer port.

unfortunately, the software doesnt even start up when it does not detect the pds card, so its not very useful to have at all unless you have the hardware.

Quote:
IIRC The package includes xasm for Z80, Amstrad CPC..

i havent seen those, mail into my direction please =)

Quote:
The PC-software itself requires an old DOS version and an old processorfamily. (PC XT?).

although most actual setups were XTs back then, i doubt it is required

Quote:
I think i got the software running but it went out searching for the ISA card so it was not of much help.

yeah like i said... same here :)

one thing that comes to mind would be hacking "dosbox" - it should be relativly easy infact, find out where the software expects the pds card registers, and then map a regular epp port there. even transfers to the c64 could work then :)
2010-03-28 13:56
sailor

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 68
Quoting Groepaz

the card actually isnt all that "custom" - it is a simple EPP printer port :) DATEL sold the same card much later as "commslink" for use with their psx action replay. the software itself should even work when patched to use the i/o adresses for a regular pc printer port.

Aha. That i didn't know (never seen the real setup), would be cool to get it running though :).. Well, it shouldn't be _that_ hard to reverse it, really.

Quoting Groepaz

one thing that comes to mind would be hacking "dosbox" - it should be relativly easy infact, find out where the software expects the pds card registers, and then map a regular epp port there. even transfers to the c64 could work then :)

Interesting idea :)


@Groepaz: You got mail with all the PDS stuff i have, perhaps you can find it a 24/7 home so its available to everyone ?

Regards
Jani

2010-03-28 13:58
Ninja

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 390
Huh, am I missing something? So many experienced people here and all not being able to get an old DOS program beyond some register checks? (I hope it is a lack of time/interest ;))

EDIT: Wine should also print every port access it can't handle IIRC.
2010-03-28 14:04
Groepaz
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
hehe indeed, it should be easy.... if i recally correctly i actually managed to get it past the check once when running it in a debugger.

@sailor: your pack looks great, much more complete than what i had
2010-03-28 15:42
tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1224
Now you got me curious, can someone upload this tool somewhere for inspection?
2010-03-28 18:21
sailor

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 68
Is this the very same card we are talking about:

http://www.tradera.com/PSX-COMM-LINK-CARD-for-Golden-finger-Gam..

(looks indeed like a standard printer port)

@Ninja: Hah, good point :D.. On that subject, i think the reason it has not been studied before is the lack of software/hardware and/or need for it actually being reversed. It is perhaps not even known to exist to all people.

/Jani
2010-03-28 20:11
Moloch

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2015
The person Morpheus and myself are referring to has the ISA card, etc. He even went so far as to get an older machine setup and ready to use. He simply needs the software, which is exactly the reason this thread was started. Why is the software being held for ransom? Please post for download somewhere.

Crimson Twilight Dev Updates [C64 CRPG]
2010-03-28 20:19
Moloch

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2015
From his post on C64Dev.com forums:

Quote:

My interest in this forum stems from the fact that I used to write C64 games professionally 20-25 years ago and I would love to get back into it as a hobby. To that end I have been trying to put my old development system back together again. I used a PDS system (Programmers Development System) which, as you may know, links a PC to a C64/128 via a proprietary 8-bit ISA card and an interface cable connecting the card to the C64's User Port.

All I had left of this system was the ISA card, the interface cable, the PDS manuals and a bunch of disks containing the PDS software. All my other C64 kit I had sold off years before. First I had to get a PC old enough to use the PDS hardware (i.e. with an ISA slot and an CGA/EGA display) fortunately I managed to acquire an old Amstrad PC1640 with an 8086 CPU, 640k RAM, 20MB hard drive, 5.25" floppy drive and a monochrome EGA display. Despite being absolutely filthy it was in excellent working condition which was amazing.

On the Commodore hardware side I have just bought a C128D (which is what I used to use back in the day) and an extra 1570 drive. I have a Commodore 1701 monitor which I use with my Atari 800 but I'm looking for one of the later Commodore monitors which will take advantage of the C128's RGB output. After also acquiring copies of my favorite books - the "Commodore 64 Programmers Reference Guide" and "Programming the Commodore 64" (by Rae West) I am pretty much set to go, apart from one thing...

Unfortunately, after 20 years of storage my PDS disks have turned into plates of oxide pate' and are totally unreadable. So I will end my first post with a plea for help, if you have or know anyone who has copies of the PDS software (consisting of the 6502 assembler/editor that runs on the PC and the PDS downloader which is loaded into the C64/128 and handles the I/O with the PDS), I would be very grateful if they could send me copies (I will of course pay for any expenses incurred).


Crimson Twilight Dev Updates [C64 CRPG]
2010-03-28 20:38
sailor

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 68
I uploaded the "PDS-stuff" here http://www.sendspace.com/file/5wm1rt

@Moloch; Is it possible for the person having the PDS system to document the cable, scan the manuals and copy his version of the PDS software and put it somewhere online?

(I think the cable would be most interesting, i assume it can be reversed but seems easier to just check the wires)

Regards
Jani
2010-03-28 21:48
Moloch

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2015
I'm guessing that is all possible, he has registered an account here and waits to be verified.

Thank you for posting the PDS download!

Crimson Twilight Dev Updates [C64 CRPG]
2010-03-28 21:50
Moloch

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2015
Quote:

WOO HOO!!!!
Just checked out that csdb thread again and SAILOR has posted the files! Yes! Yes! Yes! (sorry but I am rather happy with this turn of events). I've downloaded them but I haven't had a chance to try them out yet. I will let you know what happens when I do.

As I mentioned, I am still waiting for my csdb clearance so if someone (Moloch, maybe?) could post a thank you to Sailor on my behalf I would be very grateful.

Also, let them know that I intend to create a PDS resource page (as I mentioned previously) which will include all the information requested (manual scans, details of cables, pictures of the PDS bits etc.) and more.

Once again, a big thank you to Moloch, Morpheus and Sailor.


Crimson Twilight Dev Updates [C64 CRPG]
2010-03-28 22:51
sailor

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 68
Quoting Moloch
Quote:

As I mentioned, I am still waiting for my csdb clearance so if someone (Moloch, maybe?) could post a thank you to Sailor on my behalf I would be very grateful.

Also, let them know that I intend to create a PDS resource page (as I mentioned previously) which will include all the information requested (manual scans, details of cables, pictures of the PDS bits etc.) and more.


You are most welcome :)

A PDS resource page would be just great! Would be very interesting reading, especially when someone who has worked with the system has written it :)


I compiled the C64 downloaders from the .zip since i understood it was sort of an issue in this case. I compiled them with "ASM6502.EXE" (that is also found in the zip).
pds_crossdevkit_unpacked\C64.DL0
pds_crossdevkit_unpacked\C64.DL1
pds_crossdevkit_unpacked\C64.DL2
pds_crossdevkit_unpacked\MAKEC64.DL1

C64.DL0 and C64.DL1 compiled without problems.

I had to do some tweaking in C64.DL2 and MAKEC64.DL1. I replaced "&" with "$" and i assume that there was a typo in
MAKEC64.DL1:

LDX #>FILENAME
LDY #<FILENAME
LDA #MESSAGE-FILENAME
JSR &FFBD

Should most likely be LDX #< and LDY #>... I did some other changes aswell, then i verified the output against "c64_downloader.prg" (in the zip)... and it was identical.

ASM6502 does not include the loadaddress, so you need to insert two bytes as the loading address.

The compiled downloaders(with modified sources) can be found here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/nrwzjo.

Please note that i haven't been able to test the downloaders, but i hope this is some sort of help on the way.


Regards
Jani

2010-03-29 08:34
Morpheus

Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 144
It's great to see threads turn into something this good. Looking forward to read more about the system as soon as Jason gets the stuff out there. And Sailor, you're getting a mail from me concerning a veeeery secret cooperation. ;)

Thanks for all the help guys!!
2010-03-29 09:23
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 4398
"A PDS resource page would be just great! "

take it to codebase if someone1 is up to it :)
2010-03-29 17:24
Count Zero

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 896
While the thread is hot some people might be interested in:

http://ftp.pokefinder.org/PDS_IBM_Editor_Manual.pdf
http://ftp.pokefinder.org/PDS_6502_Assembler_n_Monitor_Manual.p..

/cz
2010-03-29 17:25
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1373
If so, then put it as a sub-page to this page:

http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:crossdev

//FTC
2010-03-29 17:26
Moloch

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2015
Actually, the plan is already in place for another website. I've offered to host it, similar to how Codebase64 sits on one of my servers.

---
Crimson Twilight Dev Updates [C64 CRPG]
2010-03-29 17:48
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1373
Okay.. Anyway, in the meantime, I added some very brief info here:

http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:pds

Feel free to expand this info. At the very least, this page could serve as a pointer to that upcoming site that Moloch mentions whenever that is ready.
2010-03-29 19:04
sailor

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 68
Quoting Morpheus
It's great to see threads turn into something this good.

I second that :)

If i may come with a suggestion, it might ease up the work BUT with the cost of loosing the nostalgic touch :(

Again.. Everything depends on how the software is built up.. but when you got a running binary you might want to move over to modern platforms.

At this point, translate the sources and verify(compare) the output from a modern xasm. This way you know you have done a "correct" translation.

With modern xasms you have access to your favorite editor (unless it is the PDS) ;) and you are not depending on any memory restrictions or place for the downloader.. Still, you might need some equipment to test your software on a real C64.


Regards
Jani
2018-01-29 10:21
AlexC

Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 268
Sorry for bring this old topic back, but I belive it is extremely interesting. Since all links had expired long time ago here is page from Amstrad wiki that has all the info including c64 part: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/PDS_development_system
2019-06-03 08:45
Endurion

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 59
Also of interest: Michael Archer posted a few of his original code files to GitHub (in PDS format):

https://github.com/milkeybabes?tab=repositories

I'm currently updating the PDS part of C64Studio to handle PDS files directly; most of the games in the repo assemble successfully, albeit with the help of a wrapper file to include all sub files.
2019-06-05 00:26
chancer

Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 276
I did post ages (years ago) about zeus 128, in recent years I got to contact the guy who made the original zeus 64. Basically ocean made their c128 version based on it, and it sends to a target c64 machine.. niche now but it was used for a few games.. and the c64 having a small recieve program *BUT* You could also send the bytes / music etc back to the c128.. as source.
2019-06-06 12:52
AlexC

Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 268
Can I find somewhere Zeus 128 disk images?
2019-06-06 15:33
chancer

Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 276
a few people had it.. I do have to copy them onto a pc.

it's only 2 files.. the c128 file / 80 columns.. Mr stark went through it to find all the commands on the c128 side, which weren't obvious.

and a receive program on the c64, that sits at $8000.. which I was tempted to make into source. to make it moveable , perhaps.

do need to find the cable also. I was going to make some more, but need to find covers for the left / modem port.
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