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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
More accurate CRT emulation
http://www.bogost.com/games/a_television_simulator.shtml
someone please make this for Vice :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
only one problem: most of these ideas have little to do with "accurate crt emulation" =P |
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 210 |
hmmmm...
Right you are, Groepaz.
But then again:
CRT
PAL
NTSC
CBL
VBL
CTV
B/W
etc.etc...
It's just all soooooooooooo confusing!
:) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: only one problem: most of these ideas have little to do with "accurate crt emulation" =P
I think they are related 100%: afterglow, texture, noise, bleed, they are all there. You act like you havent seen a CRT in your life, but sure you did. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
no, a crt isnt "some blur plus scanlines". (and colorbleed isnt related to luminance at all like that page says, and RF doesnt actually add random noise either). there is no such thing as a pixelated "texture" in crt either. the only thing that page gets half right is the afterglow stuff - which is a minor effect on decent monitors. hell, none of the *actual* pal related effects (like dot creep or color shifting because of chrominance reusage every other line) is even handled by what they do.
Quote:You act like you havent seen a CRT in your life, but sure you did.
infact thats what i always think of the people who come up with this halfassed attempts. they might vaguely remember how a crt looks like - but they dont have the slightest idea of how it actually *works* (and hence how it should be done in an accurate emulation). |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: no, a crt isnt "some blur plus scanlines". (and colorbleed isnt related to luminance at all like that page says, and RF doesnt actually add random noise either). there is no such thing as a pixelated "texture" in crt either. the only thing that page gets half right is the afterglow stuff - which is a minor effect on decent monitors. hell, none of the *actual* pal related effects (like dot creep or color shifting because of chrominance reusage every other line) is even handled by what they do.
Quote:You act like you havent seen a CRT in your life, but sure you did.
infact thats what i always think of the people who come up with this halfassed attempts. they might vaguely remember how a crt looks like - but they dont have the slightest idea of how it actually *works* (and hence how it should be done in an accurate emulation).
- colorbleed is there regardless how that page explains it
- RF definitly adds noise (and even more), guess why ppl prefer composite.
- there's definitly a texture, tho most of the time you dont really see this one. on our old TV fex. you could see the RGB phosphore, if you checked it real close.
- afterglow just like all the other issues depend a lot on CRT type.
- you are mixing up, exactly vice versa: PAL is picture decoding/encoding and has not much to do with *actual* CRT effects. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:colorbleed is there regardless how that page explains it
but colorbleed isnt simple blur (like they have implemented it). its also accurately emulated by vice already.
Quote:RF definitly adds noise (and even more), guess why ppl prefer composite.
mostly RF adds crosstalk and interference and limits the bandwidth. its not random noise (not when transmitted through a cable that isnt completely crap anyways)
Quote:there's definitly a texture, tho most of the time you dont really see this one. on our old TV fex. you could see the RGB phosphore, if you checked it real close.
yes, but there is no single-pixel-checkerboard-aligned pixelated texture. not on any crt in existance. the dotmask works differently, and looks differently.
ofcourse i agree that the dotmask would be nice to have emulated - however not the way shown on that page, its utterly wrong.
Quote:afterglow just like all the other issues depend a lot on CRT type.
yes, i already said that :) but its a rather minor effect too, and unless your monitor is completely crap its almost unnoticeable.
and ofcourse it'd be another "nice to have" thing - but unfortunately its rather computing intense in software, and the current vice architecture doesnt allow to add it easily at all.
Quote:you are mixing up, exactly vice versa: PAL is picture decoding/encoding and has not much to do with *actual* CRT effects.
yes and no. some of the effects are actually related to PAL (like color bleed - its directly related to the limited bandwidth used for color encoding)
that said, i'd rather see the pal emu itself beeing more perfect (eg dot creep isnt there yet) before thinking about imperfect crt emulation. once the rendering pipeline is a bit more sane (which will take...a decade or two =P) then adding filters for the *actual* crt effects (which boils down to dotmask and afterglow) is rather easy :)
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
my naive opinion is:
of all yet non-emulated things, the effect that bright (especially white) pixels appear "larger" is the most noticable and even a BAD emulation (as in make those exceed the scanline slightly) might make it LOOK more like a real TV.
Just my opinion. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
I don't get why you'd want to make the picture worse.
IMHO, emulation is all about what the computer does, not what your crappy screen looked like back then. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: I don't get why you'd want to make the picture worse.
IMHO, emulation is all about what the computer does, not what your crappy screen looked like back then.
so you use vice without PAL emulation all the time I suppose? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:of all yet non-emulated things, the effect that bright (especially white) pixels appear "larger" is the most noticable and even a BAD emulation (as in make those exceed the scanline slightly) might make it LOOK more like a real TV.
this is one of the actual CRT effects - and caused by the dotmask. and as said the major problem is that the current architecture of the vice rendering pipeline does not allow to add the required fullframe filter. and once you have modified it so its possible you can just aswell implement it correctly :)
Quote:I don't get why you'd want to make the picture worse.
IMHO, emulation is all about what the computer does, not what your crappy screen looked like back then.
many of the effects infact are about "what the computer does" (everything related to PAL emulation)
Quote:so you use vice without PAL emulation all the time I suppose?
it's indeed shocking how many people do that (and for example advocate to not make pal emulation on per default) |
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