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tatqoo^tqa
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 4 |
Goat tracker sample files.
Hi.
First let me apologize for posting a question that probably has been answered on this forum.
I would like to try Goat Tracker but i need more example tunes.
Can somebody point me to some resources ?
You should know, that i am totally c-64 newbie. I am an Atari 8-bit musician , you can find my tunes (mostly covers) in Rater Music Tracker package.
So, any nice guys to help with sample tracks and maybe even some other c-64 music resources ? (e.g. theory).
Thanks in advance.
tatqoo |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
You could start with the MW4-goattracker song pack. Note that the game requires the first subtune to be silence, so don't be surprised when you see nothing in the orderlist; just go to next subtune.
http://covertbitops.c64.org/music/mw4sng.zip
However, those are in the style of repetitive heavy metal inspired gamemusic, and not very technical, so you may not learn much. Hope that SmallTownBoy divulges his secrets :) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Best way to learn is try out. The helpfile is good enough to learn the basics of Goattracker, everything else is what your creativity comes up with.
It took me some time to get a hang of the sid, making quite some bad sounding tunes in the beginning, with bad settings to the registers.
One thing I use to learn about other peoples tricks, is to listen to the sids I like, and imagine 'how would they have done that' and try to create the same. (Most often something else came out, still suitable for my needs)
But for sure, in my opinion Goattracker is a good tool to get to know the posibilities of the sid chip, don't listen to all those technical people saying otherwise, coz they forget that the sid is creating the sound, not the fancy routines. (Allthough a vibrating arpegio would be nice, Cadaver :))
you can find some of my teststuff here: http://www.sinapism.net/goattrackersongs
Those are all 6581 tunes, except for Sherona. |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
Hein: Great that you supplied your worktunes , I appreciate the work you put on getting such a great instruments |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Yep, it's always cool to see/hear stuff that surpasses the editor author's imaginations about 10x :)
Btw. another thing I guess is easy to forget is that by changing the instrument mid-note, you can change what pulse modulation & wavetable are doing. Of course this isn't to be over-used due to 31 instruments max :)
Here's an example of a Galway-style lead sound (first fast pulse, then slow):
http://covertbitops.c64.org/music/galway.zip |
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tatqoo^tqa
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 4 |
Thank you all.
I am going to experiment with these tunes next week.
Maybe i will manage do create something listenable.
tatqoo |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
You can get GoatTracker music compo (SIDpack & Learning pack) here: http://www.c64.sk/files/goatcompo/goatcompoSIDpack.zip
It was released in first SidCompo at c64.sk 8.-22.october 2001. Whoops I just realised that it's probably old data format so it won't work with newest versions of GoatTracker ;-(
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 287 |
Quote: Thank you all.
I am going to experiment with these tunes next week.
Maybe i will manage do create something listenable.
tatqoo
You'll be one up on me if you do. :P
On that note, does anyone have a good tutorial on instrument construction? |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
tatqoo : just listening to music you did on RMT ;-) (example songz). Hope ypu'll stick to sid , pokey sounds are rather poor and somoene may say now it can imitate sid by software... but I guess it takes too much cpu time to be really useable. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
I've heard pokey software emulation of SID chip. Quite impressive that it works, even when it is still worse than earliest versions of Sidplay, or DOS sid player for PC. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453 |
Quote: You could start with the MW4-goattracker song pack. Note that the game requires the first subtune to be silence, so don't be surprised when you see nothing in the orderlist; just go to next subtune.
http://covertbitops.c64.org/music/mw4sng.zip
However, those are in the style of repetitive heavy metal inspired gamemusic, and not very technical, so you may not learn much. Hope that SmallTownBoy divulges his secrets :)
Wish I had any... ;)
The only thing I can recommend is to listen to the sids you consider advanced soundwise - not with SIDPlay2/w however, but using Open Cubic Player. It is the only SID player (AFAIK) capable of analyzing the contents of SID registers while playing back the tune.
It shows (in realtime, I'm afraid - couldn't find the SLOWDOWN button, although the PAUSE is there, under P key ;D) the waveform, ADSR, filter type and pulse width for each of three SID channels, plus it indicates whether a sample is played or not (old PSID format only, no RSID supported). In other words, with some effort, you can see "how it's done", and decode _every imaginable instrument ever done on C64_.
Find the player here:
http://www.cubic.org/player/
...and don't pay much attention to the sound fidelity. Yes, it is quite outdated.
powodzenia w eksperymentach kolego atarowcu, czekamy na jakies gotowe zaki,
Randall aka. Smalltown Boy |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453 |
...just remembered. Open Cubic Player also gives you some insight into what notes are played (approximately - could be a halftone off at times) and if ring modulation or synchronization is used. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: ...just remembered. Open Cubic Player also gives you some insight into what notes are played (approximately - could be a halftone off at times) and if ring modulation or synchronization is used.
Handy. This will save some time figuring out how they did this and that.
If I remember correctly, the early sidplay also had this possibility, sadly they removed it, coz I love staring at changing parameters....
But your sounds are unique, so I wonder if u did not create them without peeking.. :)
Another nice thing to do is to try create natural sounds with sid. Unfortunately most of the time a sound will use 2 oscilators or more, so there's not much room for a composition. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453 |
> Another nice thing to do is to try create natural sounds
> with sid. Unfortunately most of the time a sound will use
> 2 oscilators or more
Give me more channels and I'll do "Robot Rock" by Daft Punk on SID. Word. (Jammer will help me.) :D
...and yes fortunately I do my sounds without peeking now, but could have never started without the help of OCP. I didn't know a single thing about digitally-programmed analogue sound synthesis five years ago :) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
I used for the song Bullets_in_the_Air_Remix.sid
(release in Hvsc update 42) as lead this instrument:
ADSR: 009C
Pulse With: 90
Pulse Speed: 50
Limit Min/Max 40/50
Wavetable:
41 00
40 00
07 00
08 00
04 00
04 00
FF 02
I also tried to do with GT a Cover of Celestielle.sid by VIP,
and it sounds like his original one.
I think he used these settings for lead-instrument:
ADSR: 047A (better 047B)
Pulse With: 80
Pulse Speed: 10
Limit Min/Max 10/f0
Wavetable:
41 00
03 00
20 00
03 00
10 0C
03 00
FF 02
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
great , seems that this topic will turn into GT's stuff/ideas repository :)
maybe someone know how to get bass like Benny Benassi made in "Satisfaction" ? I think's it rather raw pulse with high-pass filter nearly all the time + modulation and/or syncro....
IMO it's possible that he used 'something' with SID to do that bass, what do you think? |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Raf, goody.. that testbit piece makes a nice echo sound. Never too old to learn something new. |
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Turtle
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 70 |
Quote: Raf, goody.. that testbit piece makes a nice echo sound. Never too old to learn something new.
After I listened to your sample tunes I would have assumed you discovered that echo-thing earlier on your way to these skilled sounds you have created in there. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
erm.. nope.. The echos that I used before were done by setting volume manually. This is alot easier, but unfortunately there's no vibration possible this way..
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Turtle
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 70 |
Hein, can you tell how you would have implemented echoes in GT by modifying the volume manually? It's always interresting which way several people do go to achieve almost equal effects.
BTW: I'll try to put some of my GT-songs online tonight. At least those listed on CSDb. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
You can use the 6 command to change the adSR (thats what I meant when writing volume):
c-3 1 638
1 = instrument
6 = set adSR command
3 = new Sustain
8 = new Release
a filter can also be helpful for a nice reverb, making the sound deeper (and an extra ringmodulation gives a metallic reverb).
Or use hardrestart off, like I used in Squirting Squid, which should give the 2nd echo instrument an initial volume of the first key instrument, with a slow attack for 2nd instrument, the echo should be smooth. (Best echos are ofcourse 2 tracked echos) |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453 |
> You can use the 6 command to change the adSR
Be careful tho'. Using that command is dangerous, 'coz it sometimes results in very loud, unpleasant note attacks. (Dunno why. Player bug? Me too stupid to understand the SID behaviour? Emulation sucks?) |
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Turtle
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 70 |
Yep, I experienced the same effect as Randall by using the 6 cmd. Hein, using filter and/or ringmodulation sounds interesting. I have to try it out immediately. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: > You can use the 6 command to change the adSR
Be careful tho'. Using that command is dangerous, 'coz it sometimes results in very loud, unpleasant note attacks. (Dunno why. Player bug? Me too stupid to understand the SID behaviour? Emulation sucks?)
yes, noticed it too. If Decay is set, the 6 command wont have much effect, tough.
Dunno why the tick remains with very low Sustain values, but without headphone it dont matter, only when listening to a tune with headphone it may be noticable.
Ow, and a Release value of 0 can also cause a tick. Dont know why, but a value of 1 or higher should solve it. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
When I use echos..., then I made Instruments
whitch use this wavetable or similar
ADSR: 009C
Wavetable:
11 80
41 00
FF 00
Its important that "AD" are zero.
Now, when you use a 6xy-cmd you can make
echos without ugly "noise" before note starts
I never testet this "trick" on a real machine,
but I think there shouldn't be any problems
@ Randall:
Yes, Emulation sucks!!!! You never can be sure
how it will sound on real SID :(
I spend more time to analyze my tunes,
if they would be playable on the real thing,
then composing...
@ Hein:
How long do you take for one of your cool songs? |
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Turtle
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 70 |
You can find my GT-files at http://www.getsepsis.de/downloads/gt_pack.zip.
But some should be opened in earlier versions of GT (pre 1.5 I think). |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
@Nata: depends on the complexity of the composition and the complexity of the sounds. Composing usually takes about 1 to 3 evenings, but the finetuning can take a lot longer. (Some tunes never become the way I wish, so no matter how much finetuning, it remains crap, and its especially demotivating when creating a 6581 tune, hearing it on 8580, thinking that I have to make a compromise, which is unsettling after many bitchanges to get the sound I wish. ;)) So, big respect to the old and new masters who mainly work on their composition, and have a good palet of instruments that sound good on all sid chips.
@Turtle: Goody, nice of you to share your tunes. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453 |
> Yes, Emulation sucks!!!! You never can be sure
> how it will sound on real SID :(
Well, and exaggeration could be bad for your health. :) As long as you're not using twisted tricks (not my case lately, I'm afraid) and stick to 8580 (which is emulated way better than 6581), latest emulation engines should suffice.
But of course, a real machine for testing purposes is always _very_ welcome. |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
recently I started to use fake hardsid - c64 connected to pc via pc64 - it acts exactly as hardsid in case software uses hardsid.dll (tested with:gt , vice , sidulator ,ccs, _old_ sidplay (new sux - requires special driver), acid64).this method is desribed in gt's help but the files can't be downloaded from web any more so thanks for Booker with supplying me . IMO main disadvantage is that it doesn't work with hardsid midi's capabilities... probably it's handled ommiting hardsid.dll in original drivers for hardsid. But who cares? you can make music handy on PC while really real sid is playing. |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
and there is anothort thing I just "un-forgotten" ... it's probably question to Cadaver - why does songs written under GT sound differently on GT , sidplay and vice when all these programs use same ReSID library?
and maybe a small trick - Cadaver , what you think about adding sid base addy select for packer in "one-sid" GT? (it might be useful with some crazy ideas like connecting sid to other 6502-based machines with different address space - I thought once about disassembling atari 2600 and converting it to portable sid player and it has got addy space of only $2000 :) anyway it will probably rest untouched but it may a tip for hardware hackers , who knows if sid-cart for a2600 would be better ? ;-) ) |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
lo,
I'd like to contribute with some example files aswell.
Here are two tracks I did for a live performance.
http://www.medienservice-lamers.de/linus/vegas_live_perf_vers.s..
s8/e1/a0100
http://www.medienservice-lamers.de/linus/somedaysoon_live_perf_..
s4/e1/a0100
Have phun and keep them .sng files coming :)
Greetz,
Linus/VRZ |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Brilliant, Linus. Keep up the good work. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Brilliant, Linus. Keep up the good work.
Funny, how different musicians make their tunes ...
Why not create an "official" GT web page, where we could share around our tunes and ideas?
Any volunteers?
Example content:
Forum/Help
Downlads: G-Tracker, sng, ins-files, SID,
...and so on
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Turtle
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 70 |
Quote: Funny, how different musicians make their tunes ...
Why not create an "official" GT web page, where we could share around our tunes and ideas?
Any volunteers?
Example content:
Forum/Help
Downlads: G-Tracker, sng, ins-files, SID,
...and so on
Good idea, nata,
though I think I'm not a novice anymore, I would appreciate hints of other composers to get a new kind of inspiration and spot some light to paths I wasn't able to see before.
I've got another possible content for the "GT-portal". There should be sort of a "wishlist" addressing cadaver or some other talented coder. Perhaps we can convince him/someone to improve GT even more.
Turtle
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
agree, a goattracker forum would make us immediate elite. :)
Think most goattracker users will appreciate a goattracker forum.
Anyone got a forum lying around? and some webspace? |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Btw:It is possible to remove Testbit (8) from Hardrestart, without switch off Hardrestart?
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
As far as I know, the testbit is automatically placed at the first frame of a wavetable(outside the edit range of the wavetable).. (at least, this is what the help file tells us) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Well, GT has reached the limit of what can be done with the current dataformat. There is no room in the songdata for more commands/effects/options, and I don't want another reorganization of data (which would make all old songs invalid)
A wishlist is not a good idea either, unless it is to request help of "skilled coder(s)" that are not me :) For better results, there's Ninjatracker anyway
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Turtle
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 70 |
Quote: Well, GT has reached the limit of what can be done with the current dataformat. There is no room in the songdata for more commands/effects/options, and I don't want another reorganization of data (which would make all old songs invalid)
A wishlist is not a good idea either, unless it is to request help of "skilled coder(s)" that are not me :) For better results, there's Ninjatracker anyway
O.k. cadaver,
why not doing a 32-Bit Port of Ninjatracker? It's just that I don't have a C64 installed at office ;-)
Just an idea...
Turtle |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Well, there would be another C-written playroutine and ASM-written playroutine to go out of sync with themselves, don't want to go that route again..
Of course there could be an embedded 6510-emulator, but IMO that's just crazy complexity for a simple problem. GT was just an experiment of 32-bit editor, proved it was not very useful for me but it got popular nevertheless |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
lo,
'kay, to all skilled coders out there that are not Cadaver ... please add a pulsetable and basic midi-capabilities that could be used for live performances (e.g. sync Goattracker to a sequencer, Prophet64 or Gameboy Nanoloop) :)
The Goattracker community portal idea kicks ass. I've got plenty of webspace. Can anybody recommend a forum?
Greetz |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Allthough this is not Goattracker related, it is somehow c64/midi related, Vincent Voois posted this link on some secret forum:
http://www.oli.adbe.org/plugins.htm
At the bottom there is a vst plugin that is a bit of a c64 sounding plugin, no advanced wavetables, but arpegio tables and nice filters nevertheless...
(I also have a c64 vst plugin, but I need a crack for it, I forgot the name) |
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Turtle
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 70 |
Well, cadaver,
according to the replies to your last statement it seems that the popularity of GT keeps the whole thing moving, even without your most skilled support. Although it's a little bit disappointing everyone will respect your decision.
I guess I have to use vice at work to compose with NT.
Turtle |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
Quote: Allthough this is not Goattracker related, it is somehow c64/midi related, Vincent Voois posted this link on some secret forum:
http://www.oli.adbe.org/plugins.htm
At the bottom there is a vst plugin that is a bit of a c64 sounding plugin, no advanced wavetables, but arpegio tables and nice filters nevertheless...
(I also have a c64 vst plugin, but I need a crack for it, I forgot the name)
is the plugin called QuardaSID? |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
lo,
the commercial one he needs the crack for is indeed re-fx's 'quadrasid' which i used for a couple of gigs. it's one hell of a great tool (4 sids, panning effects, possibility to set wavetable speed for each instrument in milisecconds etc)
the other one is probably 'quantum64', a nice and easy to use (by far less possiblities than 'quadrasid') vsti designed to create sid like sounds - still no emulation tho.
greetz |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
QuadraSid, yes.. Haven't tried it without the crack, only listened to the built in sounds, which I think are a bit weak.
I also use different analog softsynths, yamaha cs80 and moog modular, but I'm not too much into creating sounds, coz they are quite complicated to learn.
Thank God there is Goattracker, which is easy enough to enjoy musicmaking, without a billion parameters. |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
Quote: QuadraSid, yes.. Haven't tried it without the crack, only listened to the built in sounds, which I think are a bit weak.
I also use different analog softsynths, yamaha cs80 and moog modular, but I'm not too much into creating sounds, coz they are quite complicated to learn.
Thank God there is Goattracker, which is easy enough to enjoy musicmaking, without a billion parameters.
if you would like I can send you _c_r_a_c_k_e_d_ plugin :) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
I never found a crack for quadraSID on one of these warez sites. So I just own the demo :( |
