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User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 13 December 2024
Quote:This is almost as dumb as saying SID music isn't real because it's made in a tracker instead of recorded live via instruments. THINK ABOUT THAT.
Eh? Wha? |
User Comment
Submitted by Fungus on 13 December 2024
| This is almost as dumb as saying SID music isn't real because it's made in a tracker instead of recorded live via instruments. THINK ABOUT THAT. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 12 December 2024
Quote:AI does not devaluate your own work, imo.
Sure, it only devaluates all humans and their livelihoods. I wish I could say IMO. But it’s not an opinion anymore since I’ve already seen 2 victims in my circles. Sorry for going slightly offtopic.
And, Hein, if I may say, your artifacts as a whole are fine art. That exquisite combinations of visuals, sounds and code. |
User Comment
Submitted by Hein on 12 December 2024
I take that as a compliment, Joe, I suppose you're not one of them. ;)
Your work indeed evolved alot compared to, for example my own, or many other c64 pixel artists' work. I must have been lucky going into a different, less creative and more commercial direction. I'm not so much dependant on the prestige of making high quality art. Harsh reality, maybe. But in the end, AI does not devaluate your own work, imo. |
User Comment
Submitted by Joe on 12 December 2024
So, what to make of that image then, pointing my finger up there. I see a lot of people find it alright when I check the votes. Infact it's even better than the artists recent compo-picture and made in less time and still voted 10 by many! Incredible! I see the discussion going both here and there and still not reaching the head. Talking about yesteryears doesn't really make much sense talking about teenagers, young adults with no formal academic training, might not even have passed the gymnasium yet trying their best at doing copies of something, mind you inspired by artists, like Hein.
And now I stand in front of an image, possibly made by someone close to their 50: ies with an academic training perhaps, a well-paid job most probably, happy life, using A.I. and I ask myself, what is it worth? What should I take home from this and with many things this year, with that silly pointing hand and nails pointing at me? That "faking it will make it"? That my life is worth less, since I take the scene to serious? Not being just as fancy or successful in life. That what I have been trying about art, has been in vain, reaching new goals with my drawings, paintings and architecture. No. I won’t accept that! And this is just bullshit to be honest.
I also ask myself, why this artist which shows all the rest work on Facebook from time to time, left this one out. Was it not as good to be proud over, just a silly thing on this forum? Something which was just an attack?
Yesterday I saw this fantastic image made by Colin on Facebook. He is no formal scener, but he does so much better images than the lot, and they come from heart and doesn't need this superficial attitude and is so much better than this. This is just sad. And I hope positive work like that, original work in general and real efforts will be taken serious again! |
User Comment
Submitted by Krill on 12 December 2024
| Electric: Yes, that was referring to "copying great artists", and a copy it is. Not a straight wirejob, of course. Same with all those other Boris&Julie "homages" at the time. =) |
User Comment
Submitted by Hein on 12 December 2024
| @4gentE: Still up to the artist to decide how and at what pace, not up to a club of wise men. |
User Comment
Submitted by Electric on 12 December 2024
@Krill I remember seeing Creeper pixeling that image at TCC. Looks merely a pic pixeled from a reference than a conversion – the use of tones, bit clumsy faces etc hint towards that. I think it was one of the first IFLIs ever done (correct if wrong). Damn it looked good back then. Anyway, it’s good to remember that pixeling from a reference is very different way to do an image than straight conv from digital material, early 90s the tools were mostly awful and as said: creating images had mostly technical goals – getting something look ‘natural’ was a miracle. 1993 we’re still talking mostly about teenage people who mostly never studied anything, in gfx case drawing, painting or such. We had some skills and a will to do something, but to draw something outstanding was still just a dream.
@Peacemaker Early images were mostly pixeled from references (with various techniques) and the actual conversions started to pop up mid-90s, leading to 'The Parties' gfx compos becoming conv slide shows and also lots of ppl loosing interest in scene due that. Some people of course had access to digital images way before than others. When this access was in hands of everyone, the flood began. So the path has been from use of references (mostly by someone else) to fixed conversions, currently that 'someone' being replaced by AI and conversion tools making most of the pixeling as well. The conv flood raised the first debates on originality during 90s – this same discussion was there and straight convs were not liked. Many parties told that gfx compo entries should be handmade, but almost none could actually jury that – most juries existed purely for preselection. Due the development of ‘tools’ this discussion is still going on - the same debate on originality. With AI’s six fingers in the soup that discussion concerns the whole art world. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 12 December 2024
It's a shame that policing has to be done, instead of artists just being honest with their processes.
IRL I've seen many artists blossom after they let go of their fears of inadequacy. In fact, I don't think I've seen any failing. Everyone learns by copying. Then you let go. Take a plunge. |
User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin on 12 December 2024
“ we should all go back to copying Vallejo and Frazetta.”
I didn’t mean anything bad in what I said, just reminding that people -did- copy back then, and did enter compos and, most strange of all to me, -did- manage to win. Frequently. Maybe those voting didn’t have access to higher-end machines than C64 so were awestruck by often wired - and too often badly interlaced - graphics?
But, yes, back on topic.. let me be clear: I -would- like to see more credit given to the source artists and materials when copied. Compo or not I think it could be good practice.
How the art does in competitions is down to voters - and it should be the community pointing out if stuff is copied without credit or breaking compo rules. We have the perfect place right here (and at C64GFX).
Compo Orgas can then do what they think is right. Not all compos are “no copy”, though.
Note also… I went through many “copies” that were pointed out to me today and added references for those. That’s something I’m happy to do on C64GFX - and will allow people to anonymously report. That seems the best and fairest way. For now, I’ll verify copies and later I’ll hopefully have a team to help me with that (it’s more a matter of when I code the feature rather than when a team will volunteer).
CSDb has the comment system for this stuff.
Back on topic, if copies are mentioned, I see no problem with them. And as I said before, in -demos- rather than gfx, it’s historically not expected to credit copy references - though of course it would be nice. |
User Comment
Submitted by Hein on 12 December 2024
| @4gentE, I see no reason to quit this scene because of that, tbh. Allthough the amount of quality art outside the c64 scene is obviously beyond compare and for some probably more appealing because of that. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 12 December 2024
Quote:CopAss: Compopic TCC1993 - of course, not the only one of its kind at the time. =)
Check the 90s gfx compos. Top places are quite often taken there by Boris and Julie, actually ;p
looking at the party of 90s, i would say 70% of the stuff at top 3 is converted.
I am sure you are just 'setting the record straight' while fully aware that this is completely irrelevant. Unless you're saying that is the right path and we should all go back to copying Vallejo and Frazetta. |
User Comment
Submitted by Peacemaker on 12 December 2024
| looking at the party of 90s, i would say 70% of the stuff at top 3 is converted. |
User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin on 12 December 2024
“everyone had a "boris vallejo era". copying great artists as practice is not a problem. they just didn't submit it to a competition”
Check the 90s gfx compos. Top places are quite often taken there by Boris and Julie, actually ;p |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 12 December 2024
Quote:I remember someone telling me bluntly that people only appreciate my 'art' because it's made on the computer, which was a novelty medium at the time (late 80s).
@Hein:
Exactly this. I think C64 scene can (and is) be so much more than this kind of one-trick pony. I too was impressed by digis back when I first heard them. Like, look at this, this small computer can do this. Crappy but still impressive. So when the outside world (Siggraph) looks at something like Wonderland XIV (please don't get me wrong, I think it's a very good demo), to them it's like looking at para-olympics. Like C64 is a retarded kid and should be held to lower originality standards. People go like, wow, this is pretty good for C64. But why settle for that? There are things produced inside C64 demoscene that are original art pieces that can stand by themselves, holding their own. Not just cute copy-demakes of more serious art. Not just copies of art, but true art. Many of your own works are exactly that - genuine pieces of art that stand on their own. So some people get frustrated by the prospect of this achieved level of originality that the C64 demoscene reached descending back into copying and unoriginally de-making more complex art into C64 format. |
User Comment
Submitted by Electric on 12 December 2024
User Comment
Submitted by Krill on 12 December 2024
| CopAss: Compopic TCC1993 - of course, not the only one of its kind at the time. =) |
User Comment
Submitted by Hein on 12 December 2024
@Copass, yes. I remember someone telling me bluntly that people only appreciate my 'art' because it's made on the computer, which was a novelty medium at the time (late 80s). Hence, the fact that it were just copies was less important than the medium they were made on. This still holds now with AI, it seems.
@Electric, people trying to escape AI, by pixeling on an old 8-bit platform, I guess that's not going to work out for them. |
User Comment
Submitted by Electric on 12 December 2024
| @Hein Might be that if the future of scene presents just AI ppl start to lose their interest in it. There's the competitive side too, which seems to be important for many. Competing against AI is prolly not as interesting as against your fellow. Like playing Hat Trick against the computer – better than nothing but why on earth. |
User Comment
Submitted by CopAss on 12 December 2024
@hein: everyone had a "boris vallejo era". copying great artists as practice is not a problem.
they just didn't submit it to a competition, or they didn't know it wasn't possible!:D |
User Comment
Submitted by Hein on 12 December 2024
| @Electric, I get that. But I was wondering why someone is quiting the scene because of someone else's (allegedly) dishonesty. Must be more than just 'oh that guy is cheating, I quit, because the compo is unfair'. |
User Comment
Submitted by Electric on 12 December 2024
| @Hein We did not have the tools to do it properly, nor scanners or digital cams, there was no common knowledge on the refs or ways to find 'em. One can pretty exactly point out the moments when demoscene gfx changed in making and it was always the tools that made the difference. While the early days the challenge was merely in techniques, discussion on own motifs got heated when ppl suddenly had access to digital references, got modern tools like PhotoShop and so on. Sort of natural development with different focus. |
User Comment
Submitted by Hein on 12 December 2024
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Submitted by 4gentE on 12 December 2024
| What happened? IDK. Perhaps growth? Maturing? I remember when we were spitting and throwing Legos at each other in 1980. Nobody objected. What happened? |
User Comment
Submitted by Hein on 12 December 2024
| I don't remember we were such sensitive teenagers when we were ruthlessly copying Boris Vallejo. What happened? |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 12 December 2024
Quote:I don’t like seeing people chased out of the scene.
@Raistlin:
I understand. But you got it backwards. Here's a real story. Bear with me. I won't name any names. I was 'accused' last year, a little bit roughly, that I was "chasing someone out". By a scener whom I love and respect. It hurt, and got me thinking. As it later turned out, nobody got chased out. These days, another scener I have a lot of love and respect for, a fine gfx artist, is all set to leave the scene, to take a break of unknown length, because of all this dishonesty and mindless doubling-down. So, from what I saw with my own two eyes, your argument (concern, fear) just failed to stand the test of reality. In fact, your concern and sympathy seems to be pointed in the wrong direction. |
User Comment
Submitted by Electric on 12 December 2024
| @Raistlin I must point out that there always was a difference in ripping someone's code straight or looking at the code, learning how it was done and executing it on your own. 'Learning' is the key word here. The case is pretty much the same with AI gfx that in the end abuse other people's work. |
User Comment
Submitted by Zierliches Püppchen on 12 December 2024
Oh dear, that's coming to the big bang faster than expected. Is it possible that your nerves are on edge in your private life and at work thanks to AI?
Today I look at pictures more than just a souvenir when I meet a few friends at a party.
The great art offensive of world culture is not my thing. But I like to see technically crazy things and if AI supports implementation, why not. When I see a real work of art with its own recognizable style, I rate it extra.
Always remember, it's almost Christmas, you'd rather work on the family. :-) |
User Comment
Submitted by El Jefe on 12 December 2024
@Raistlin: It's nice to see that you're so upset and that you can only resort to trying to defame other artists like The Sarge, to defend what Facet has been up to for the past few years. Facet was of course “clever” enough to stop using existing images at a certain point and generate his own through AI.
Anyone who has experimented a little with prompt to image AI has of course recognized how Facet and others (e.g. his c64 apprentice Critikill) proceed to create their “unique” motifs.
This and the timelapses that CopAss has posted regarding real and faked workstages should help to understand. Its so ugly to see how workstages are faked, it really hurts and makes me sorry for the guys who feel the urge to do it.
What pleases me most, of course, is how desperately you try to attack me and deny me the right to criticize certain people because I don't release anything ... and to see how nobody cares about it. :D
I promise you that, if I ever release anything, I will dedicate it to you personally. <3
PS: You did not really understand what Higgie posted about "rules" in the demoscene.
PS2: To be honest, I prefer 100.000 Talents/Facets/Critikills to rage-quit the scene due to criticism about their "work" than only one single honest artist quits, because he notices that most fellow graphicians are cheaters! |
User Comment
Submitted by PAL on 11 December 2024
Critiquing art for being 'unoriginal' or demanding step-by-step proof is like grilling a magician about their tricks - just enjoy the magic instead of spoiling the show with endless skepticism!
kill it or leave it - up to you all! |
User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin on 11 December 2024
I did say re: “rules” that -the scene- never had rules. Compos, of course, but the scene was somewhere where anything goes. In cracking, there were recracks. In demos, people copied code, or just “cracked” a whole demo. In graphics, loading pictures were ripped and signatures added. And everything in-between.
“Best Practices” sounds more acceptable, for sure. But if people don’t follow them, just drop your evidence in the thread and perhaps stop chasing with pitchforks - it’s not a great look for the scene.
Re: language in the scene. There’re never been rules about that either, anything goes. Does CSDb have that rule? Maybe, I have no idea… if it does, just try to remember that CSDb isn’t the scene, it’s just a website supporting the scene.
Apologies if I was rude yesterday. I don’t like seeing people chased out of the scene. It went way too far with Talent last year .. and Critikill’s just come to the C64 scene and been met with this aggressive feedback too.
That all said, if compos have no-copy rules, for sure, anyone caught copying should be disqualified. It’s up to the orgas to decide that once the copying is known. |
User Comment
Submitted by Joe on 11 December 2024
| It was hijacked to begin with - claiming to be crafted artwork, which it's not. Now he will enter as I, will sit in my chair and keep watching for the Burgtheater actor to enter. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
@hedning:
Yes, I agree. I think it would be far better if offtopic (unrelated to the release) discussion got steered to the forum right away when the topic hijack begins. Or never. The arbitrary way it works now is, well, let’s say sub-optimal. |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 11 December 2024
| Copass, 4gente: I just meant moving this discussion to the forum. |
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Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
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Submitted by jmin on 11 December 2024
| Don't care much about the (repeated) AI discussions, but Thomas Bernhard and the Wiener Burgtheater (my second living room so to speak) being mentioned made me smile. What a crossover 馃槉 |
User Comment
Submitted by Joe on 11 December 2024
| I feel like Thomas Bernhard in his "Woodcutter", sitting in the chair watching all the guests coming, just waiting for that Burgtheater actor, this clown, to show up. |
User Comment
Submitted by Higgie on 11 December 2024
Are people seriously talking about “rules”in the demoscene??
yep! :)
if it's just the word "rules" that triggers you, i might also could have said "guidelines" or "best practices" or ... pick your favorite or add your own!
rules might change over time. but they do because something else changes. nowadays we have "mighty" generative AI and other means of faking at our hands. we ("the scene") are trying to find a way to deal with it. and I for myself try to evaluate the new/upcoming technologies and practices against the "rules" i have learned during my scene-years. If I find that things somehow don't fit, I will say so. That doesn't mean the end of the discussion. And I don't want to enforce anything neither could I. But as long as there are releases popping up that are raising questions for me, I will use the comments function to voice my concerns - though not everytime. i still have other things to do. ;)
btw: if you are denying the existence of rules/best practices/... in the scene context, i think english shouldn't be the main scene language anymore, what it certainly is. please let everybody use the language he/she likes.
Ich fange mal mit Deutsch an. ... Aber das ist ja zu einfach. Das kann man sich ja ganz einfach mit Google übersetzen lassen.
Villicht schölen ik dat mit plattdüütsch versöken? ;) |
User Comment
Submitted by CopAss on 11 December 2024
@Raistlin: "post-processed converted image" vs "drawing from scratch"
the final image never matches the sketch, as the content and composition are constantly evolving along the way. it is refined.
fools gold - joe: https://ibb.co/yVgXcPj
slobber - the sarge: https://youtu.be/hOPguluQUDA
escaping an dinner - copass: https://youtu.be/fLU7HeTB7c0
end boss - critikill: https://ibb.co/TH282r2
green man - facet: https://ibb.co/58MdKhy
do you see the difference?
joe,sarge and I have reworked either the whole image or just parts of it several times.
with facet,critikill the contour is there perfectly and they don't touch it once.
they don't touch the sketch because they copy from a finished image.
you can't see how the image was created, just "puff" and there's a finished contour and all you see is dithering! wtf?!:D
Anyone who has ever drawn knows what I'm talking about. |
User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin on 11 December 2024
“Raistlin, how would you feel if lame demomaker demos got voted to top spots by your fellow sceners? Because it’s all good fun and they don’t care. Would you go on coding with same gusto?”
Sure. I mean, maybe not demomaker.. but, for me, many demos charting and winning compos are lame - code wise at least. It’s been that way for a while now. Demos are no longer about the best code - it seems we’ve gone the way of the PC demoscene so that stories and animation ideas win over technical wizardry. It’s sad and annoying… but we press on and we’ll be back at future demo compos for sure.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand the argument here re: AI or wired art .. but to attack every posted image.. and to not give evidence of copying etc.. I dunno, it’s a bit weak.
Compo orgas can ask for workstages or whatever proof they want. Maybe there can be some live-drawing compos as well?
Facet’s pics are stunning. I’ve only seen 1 piece of evidence of a copy, the car pic, and that’s the same evidence that El Jefe showed me a long time back. If there’s more, it would be interesting to see. But even with that car pic, although the shapes match, a ton of work was done on coloring - copying that I’ve seen of others, including those who’ve weighed in on the no-copy thing and shown the 5-fingers logo, has had much less extra work done. If those fighting the no-copy cause are also copying, isn’t it a bit hypocritical..? |
User Comment
Submitted by CopAss on 11 December 2024
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Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
| Constantly adding fuel to the fire, actively pushing for one side, then occasionally crying out for moderation is getting old. |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 11 December 2024
| Maybe some moderation would be good here too? |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
Quote:I don't know what you would say if demos filled with AI pictures from your shared source code started flooding the scene.
The real question here is: Raistlin, how would you feel if lame demomaker demos got voted to top spots by your fellow sceners? Because it’s all good fun and they don’t care. Would you go on coding with same gusto? |
User Comment
Submitted by CopAss on 11 December 2024
@Raistlin: if a competition is not regulated then this is what will happen:
fucking cheaters win and flood the scene with shit...
we are talking about the two biggest cheaters: Critikill and Facet.
it has been proven 100x that they copy/montage/AI images, convert, faking the workstages.
this is not art! this is trash!
you don't recognize it by its art style, but by the effects and lame compositions.
but let them create freely, post it here, anywhere. no one limits them in this.
BUT they have no place in a fucking graphics competition, where everyone follows the rules and submits their own work!
a photoshopwizard like this comes along and copycat, AI generates it.
So he can't draw a fucking rabbit by himself, but he can't even compose...
With this fucking great "freedom" it was achieved that at every party several cheaters get into the top 3...
real artists don't add picture. because why would they if an AI-wizard wins anyway.
példa:
Mystdata: 7 picture entries, 4 AI convert.
results: 2,3,4,6 AI converted entries.
last place Leon! Leon who has proven a million times that he can draw!
I don't know what you would say if demos filled with AI pictures from your shared source code started flooding the scene.
then you wouldn't say that. |
User Comment
Submitted by Electric on 11 December 2024
| @Raistlin I suppose people just don't really like getting flooded with AI – similar reaction all over, not just here. If this was about ripping someone's code the treatment would be different which tells there are at least some unwritten r###s. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
Quote:I really enjoyed the show here -
a little social experiment like expected.
One would be pardoned to think that this statement should slow down if not completely stop both "sides". Or at least the "freedom defending" one. The Amiga fatcat tells you it was a an experiment to agitate you ridiculous C64 lab mice. That your silly antics are enjoyable. Like a circus. Yet you go on. Hilarious really. |
User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin on 11 December 2024
Are people seriously talking about “rules”in the demoscene??
Compos.. yes. Set by the compo orgas. The scene? Absolutely not. Never was and never should be. Do whatever the f*** you want IMO.
I wish people would stop throwing their toys out of the f***ing pram because others aren’t doing things quite how they like.
So much whining in the scene nowadays.. seriously, I think there was less when you were all teenagers.
And El Jefe: I’d comment on some of your releases, seriously, I would. Except THERE AREN’T ANY. I can’t see anything that you’ve actually done - which makes your incessant whining even more annoying. Sorry, man, but you really need to get off your arse before real sceners take you seriously ;) |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 11 December 2024
| Yes. Dodo birds should have been the natural pick for a C64 scene mascot, instead of cats. |
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Submitted by Isildur on 11 December 2024
Nice details, even if it is AI convert. Just wondering why so many guys are obsessed with cats here :D
CatSceneDatabase |
User Comment
Submitted by Higgie on 11 December 2024
"it’s really fascinating how serious some take
their demoscene-life"
Taking things serious and having fun at the same time is nothing out of the ordinary. That's the case with many hobbies. Else it would be just foolishness. But if that's your hobby - ok. ;)
If you are e.g. into hiking (like your funny bunny) for fun, you should take things serious too. Else you might pick the wrong shoes, get lost in the woods or get eaten by a bear.
To me the demo scene is a team sport which comes with certain written but mostly unwritten rules that developed over time. And most of them have proven to be useful. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
| But what's up with all the ailurophobia? |
User Comment
Submitted by Critikill (CK) on 11 December 2024
I really enjoyed the show here -
a little social experiment like expected.
With lots of human made emotions and it’s really fascinating how serious some take
their demoscene-life :-D
Cheers
Love. Peace. Demoscene |
User Comment
Submitted by Higgie on 11 December 2024
what is art and what's not?
my brain's full of (k)nots!
what knots?
cat's paws!
i need a pause!
i need some air rest!
(#humanmadepoetry) |
User Comment
Submitted by El Jefe on 10 December 2024
| This seems to mark the pinnacle in one of the most bizarre series of debut releases from a gfx artist in the c64 scene to date! Congrats! :D |
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Submitted by Burglar on 10 December 2024
| too many ppl with assburgers here ;P |
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Submitted by 4gentE on 10 December 2024
hendig :D
And it’s spelled “hamberder”. |
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Submitted by hedning on 10 December 2024
| And Burger is spelled "burger". :O |
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Submitted by Burglar on 10 December 2024
| I especially like the incorrect English :) |
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Submitted by astaroth on 10 December 2024
| The image really made me laugh, fantastic idea, therefore 10/10 |
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Submitted by CopAss on 10 December 2024
| another AI crap by CopyKill! |
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Submitted by Joe on 10 December 2024
| 50 year old men with no fantasy of their own. Hilarious! |
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Submitted by Joe on 10 December 2024
| I could bet that was a Black Friday pixel off for a cheap prize XD |
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Submitted by E$G on 10 December 2024
| Nice, it looks more like a Spectrum-style graphic. We won't fall for the AI's bait |
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Submitted by Joe on 10 December 2024
| Nice! Is there any workstages on this one? |
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Submitted by jmin on 10 December 2024
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Submitted by katon on 10 December 2024
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Submitted by 4gentE on 10 December 2024
| Oh, I see, finger cropping is a matter of a wider artistic style. Let’s see if it catches on. |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 10 December 2024
| Lol! The FBAI Will take you all! |
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