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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 331 |
Event id #3391 : C64GFX.com CharSet Logo Compo 2024
✅ I am in! (After more than a decade!) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
Quote:C64GFX.com will host the voting form.
Way to go. Finally someone is doing it the right way. Thank you. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
What Creamd said! |
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Frostbyte
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 174 |
Brilliant, I've been looking forward to this!
However just one gripe about the rules, what comes to voting:
"Votes will be made PUBLIC - so think carefully if you plan strategic up/down-voting!"
This means that one can't rate his/her mates'/groupmates' entries highly even if they'd deserve it, because people would get butthurt. And it means one can't rate his/her mates'/groupmates' entries lowly even if they'd deserve it, because his/her mates/groupmates would get butthurt. So in essence, whatever one votes, someones will get butthurt about it. :D
I'm not a fan of up/downvoters either, but I AM a fan of honest voting, and honest voting can only be achieved with anonymity. I'd like to think the pricks who take advantage of the anonymity are very much in the minority, so in my eyes the majority suffers here to get around the problem a minority causes. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
What Frostbyte said! |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Yep, it’s the age old:-
Public voting: “but people can see my votes!”
Private voting: “but we can’t see people’s votes!”
C64GFX kinda has to do this anyway… if the votes are private, and a G*P member wins, there’d be shouts of foul play. We don’t have a registered user system (yet at least)…
Personally I thought public voting could be an interesting thing too… see how it goes. There’ve been talks for years about whether CSDb voting should be private or public too.. I’m leaning to public because I’m tired of people hiding behind anonymous downvotes.
From what I was told back in 2018, private voting isn’t fully private anyway - the devs of the site can see the votes of course. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 479 |
Looks like a faithful successor to my 3-Color-Logo Competition 2013. Some people came to me to make another one. Unfortunately I do not have sparetime for this at the moment, so thanx for organizing this compo! |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Great news! Vinny Mainolfi has been kind enough to offer a 6-issue (physical) subscription to FREEZE64 to the winner of the compo! (including free shipping anywhere in the world)
And thanks, Didi! It looks like your logo compo was very successful, actually, many many entries! Hopefully this one can come close to that :-) |
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The Syndrom
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 56 |
why would ECM not be allowed when using $d800 colors is ? |
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Wile Coyote
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Seems like a repeat of a previous compo.
I would have liked to have seem some changes:
Only 1 entry per person.
No signatures (they can be added after the compo is over).
All entries to remain anonymous until after results.
All logo's should be based on the same 'word'. 'word' to be provided by the organizers.
I will not be entering the compo. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
@The Syndrom .. as you're the 3rd person that's asked about ECM, I'll change the rules to allow ECM :-)
@Wile .. sorry to hear you feel that. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
ECM Mode will now be allowed - since there are so many asking about it. Hope to see some good use of it from those asking! (it means you only get 64 chars though - no raster tricks so you can't be turning it off half way down the logo ;p). |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
No ECM made me wonder as well (because besides that, everything goes)
Quote:the devs of the site can see the votes of course.
All moderators can, not just the devs (that really should be fixed, obviously). Long ago, i was even approached by one - in a very harsh tone - and ask why i was voting this and this for something. wtf :) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: No ECM made me wonder as well (because besides that, everything goes)
Quote:the devs of the site can see the votes of course.
All moderators can, not just the devs (that really should be fixed, obviously). Long ago, i was even approached by one - in a very harsh tone - and ask why i was voting this and this for something. wtf :)
Haha, so private voting's really not private at all. Nice :-)
Public voting's the future. If I were Perff, and was feeling bored one day, I'd just flip the switch, making it all public, and then go on holiday for a month :-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
That would be a nice shitshow indeed :)
I'd certainly delete all my votes and stop voting all together if it was public though - not worth my time dealing with all those idiots who think everything that's not an 8 is a downvote. |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 224 |
Very positive towards this compo. there was a similar one a few years ago, which I didn't have any great idea for so will try in making something for this one (and besides, the results back then was gorgeous!).
With all my modesty I will try my best! |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3137 |
Quote: That would be a nice shitshow indeed :)
I'd certainly delete all my votes and stop voting all together if it was public though - not worth my time dealing with all those idiots who think everything that's not an 8 is a downvote.
I hope to have enough popcorn that day. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
That thought only makes me "downvote" even more now :o) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 629 |
Never had a single person bug me about my public votes.
Most people don't care. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
There was plenty drama about so called "downvoting", quite obviously those people care. A lot. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Compo-voting can be done in much better ways than generalised CSDb voting… as shown at X, Gubb, etc. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
No doubt. For compos i much prefer ranked voting too (because it forces ppl to do just that - and not just give 8 to everyone :)) |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 224 |
Here's my first contribution using, if it was counted correctly, 190 chars (including the background). First out of possible 3 ones I'll make. Enjoy!
Wrath Logo |
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zscs
Registered: Sep 2010
Posts: 45 |
For my F4CG Logo I used CharPad and actually there's an annoying feature in it: when I used the very same char twice but with different Foreground color... CharPad handles these two chars as two different 8x8 matrix, even if these are totally identical.
I assume this feature is very useful for games, where color information can be handled together with the Char Map this way. But in case of this compo, this is a limitation, right? :)
Would be nice to have a coloring feature which could be used on the Char Map instead of the Char Set.
If you have any idea how could we overcome on this CharPad feature, don't hesitate to share it! Thanks! |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
That’s quite strange zscs. Does charpad let you use more than 256 chars? If so, an extra “charset-packing” tool may work. I’m sure there must be one already. If not, I can knock one together (I’m planning to code a char-counter tomorrow anyway just to make sure I trust the char counts on these logos - I heard a rumour that a certain well-used tool is somehow mis-counting..?). |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 505 |
There is doubles removal and unused chars removal tools in CharPad. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Doing a quick test, I get 130-131 chars for the F4CG logo. 130 if we don't bother with a "blank" char (since this can be cleared with D800 data).. or 131 if we include it. Which looks to match exactly with what you have in your release - did you "fix" the data after export from Char Pad or..?
It's annoyingly close to 128 actually ;) |
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rexbeng
Registered: Aug 2012
Posts: 30 |
Uhm. Ok, I'm a fair bit unfamiliar with technicalities with regards to the C64, and by looking at what's been submitted I get a little bit confused about what is allowed or not....
So, question 1: "Hires, Multi-Colour or a mixture (through $D800 colour data) can be used". What does this '$D800' mean? ^_^
Question 2: May I use the same multicolour character with different colour(s) (like in PETSCII), or does every different colour count as different character? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
Seems those rules are too technical indeed :D
Quote:So, question 1: "Hires, Multi-Colour or a mixture (through $D800 colour data) can be used". What does this '$D800' mean? ^_^
In multicolor mode you have 3 global colors ($d021/22/23) plus one color per character - that is the colorram, aka "$d800". The colorram value would also decide if a character is displayed as hires or multicolor, values 0-7 result in hires, values 8-15 result in multicolor (using colors 0-7).
Reason to mention that is: "classic" multicolor char logos would usually use the same colors for all chars, ie fill the colorram with one color only. (or even more classic: use the colorram for "black background", so the other 3 colors can be choosen from the available 16)
Quote:Question 2: May I use the same multicolour character with different colour(s) (like in PETSCII), or does every different colour count as different character?
Only the number of characters count, reusing the same character with different colors is not only allowed - but also encouraged :) (A decent conversion tool should do this automatically) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1292 |
Knowing that CharPad cannot reuse same char with different d800 colour, I guess further passing its output through Pixcen is not a bad idea. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
Really? That seems pretty lame for a tool that is the defacto standard... |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 331 |
Quoting JammerKnowing that CharPad cannot reuse same char with different d800 colour, I guess further passing its output through Pixcen is not a bad idea.
I am not 100% sure, but i tested right now with:
CharPad Free Edition 2.86 (Bug free version)
and Joe's Logo:
Wrath Logo
And all seem to be fine. (190 unique Chars) |
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rexbeng
Registered: Aug 2012
Posts: 30 |
@chatGPZ, thanks! So, I'm putting this down in moron-graphician words to make sure I'm getting it straight:
There may be a 256 charset with, EITHER 3 common colours across all chars and one free for each char to chose between colours 8-15, OR black colour common across all chars and 3 free to chose for each char from any of the 16 colours? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
Almost, its colors 0-7 if you want multicolor chars :) |
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rexbeng
Registered: Aug 2012
Posts: 30 |
Hey, I'm still happy I got most of it! :D
Thanks! |
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Carrion
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317 |
Quote: Really? That seems pretty lame for a tool that is the defacto standard...
Yup, that's unfortunately the "feature" that is very annoying and "remove doubles" doesnt fixes this.
I guess it is because of the way CharPad handles the coloring of the chars/tiles. I'm not sure it can be easily fixed. Charpad still is the best char editor on Windows though. Highly recommended for this compo ;)
I think this limitation could be bypassed by simple routine that shows the logo. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
Quote: Really? That seems pretty lame for a tool that is the defacto standard...
its natural if you think about it that it is aimed at designing level maps and tiles. Show me a game that stores a 2nd map for d800 colors.
but come to think about it not even the ancient native graphic editor can do it. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
All games that use meta-tiles, and use the colorram with it, could reuse chars with different colors - i am sure some do it (because really, why wouldn't they?) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
Quote: All games that use meta-tiles, and use the colorram with it, could reuse chars with different colors - i am sure some do it (because really, why wouldn't they?)
sure there may be some exceptions, but usually each char is assigned a color and thats it. no seperate tilecolor map, or levelcolormap
even if you have this then you can not use all 256 chars because then some bytes are reused for different color.
thats 1 reason for not doing it, and 2nd reason is unecessary extra complexity and usage of ram, look at mayhem in monsterland best char gfx for a game ever, and does fine without |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
Yes sure, but still no good reason to generally not support it, IMHO. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1059 |
Quoting rexbeng@chatGPZ, thanks! So, I'm putting this down in moron-graphician words to make sure I'm getting it straight:
In standard multicolor character mode you have one background color ($d021) and two shared colors for all chars ($d022, d023). Then for each character you have two options:
• Either a hires character with one of color 0-7 plus the $d021 background
• Or a multicolor character with one of color 0-7 plus the two shared $d022/23 and the background color
To get a hires character, set color ram to a value between 0-7. To get a multicolor character add 8 to the color you want and set color ram to a value between 8-15. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2084 |
I think some people overdo the "CharSet" in the title - which of course intended dispayability of the logo in CharMode. What we actually find daily, are rather fonts than logos in my view.
Bottom Line: More focus on the "Logo" part. I'd appreciate some more creativity, actual pixelwork should be encouraged - applause and ridiculous upvotes (every so-so stuff gets its 10s wtf) for stuff that can be called a logo but is actually some 30 minutes copy&paste job might be rather seen as frustrating for real gfxians considering to participate.
And this is _not_ a statement about use of AI or cross development. You can use these and still have a somewhat cool and less dull output.
Looking 4wd for more REAL logos! |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
“Some people”. Ha! |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Things just got interesting/complicated ;p
We have our first non-scener entries :-) .. PRGs for these were supplied - but for now C64GFX only shows the images, there's no PRG/D64 hosting etc.
So you can currently only see them here: https://c64gfx.com/compo/3391
I have no idea whether they automatically qualify for CSDb..?
But, regardless, voting etc will be done over on C64GFX - so the only confusion will come if people wonder why the CSDb chart for the compo doesn't matter jot in this case ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
some people got accounts for less :) (IIRC "taking part in a compo" is even mentioned in the rules as a criteria for qualifying for csdb) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: some people got accounts for less :) (IIRC "taking part in a compo" is even mentioned in the rules as a criteria for qualifying for csdb)
Cool. He tried applying for an account -before- submitting the entries and was rejected... maybe I suggest he create a little more art first and then reapply. He has a page on C64GFX now, anyway. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
One of the usual suspects will add those entries soon enough, i am sure :) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2084 |
Offtopic: How to get or not to get an account has little to do with the compo, but I think, it's alright to tell you:
release -> account
works better than the other way round
want account -> have so much to release! (promises, promises) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2084 |
@recent complaints about "no full screen compo"... well, the only way of having this ruled out might have been restricting the whole compo to 40x6 tiles in the first place. rules as they are don't forbid using all of the screen and IMHO Hibiscus as a composition did not fail at all to represent - a logo. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
I don't see how doing what the rules allow is somehow a problem. Not doing it is entirely your fault :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
not a fan of pictures disguised as logos, but a compo targeting that would be fun :) edit: I meach charmode based picture compo. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
I wonder if people want to rank 200+ entries, btw. Unless they only have to pick their top 10 or something. |
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The Sarge
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 43 |
Thank you Raistlin for arranging this compo! It's interesting to see all the entries and how the comments goes.
A personal reflection.
For me a logo is a shape distilled down to the most simple thing possible.
It has to meet certain goals like.
- Work both big and small. 1x1 cm size and still be readable, 5x5 m size and still be useful.
- Work as a transparent shape on many different backgrounds. You never know where a logo ends up. It might end up on a moving background like a drone shot, still black or white background. On a patterned background etc. It has to work on all of them. T-shirt, car, banner...
- Should be usable for a lot of different people without messing up. Therefore the most simple shape and color theme that is hard to fuck up.
- A logo has no background. It should be transparent.
- A logo is about branding. Should suit the messenger and their values, put the messengers name and symbol in front unless some other clever idea is designed.
- Should be possible to animate the reveal of the logo.
- Should preferably have some twist that makes it memorable.
Not saying all the logos posted are in any way wrong. After all I've been in the scene since the 1980s and I know the style inside out.
I guess Im just a bit surprised how logos outside the scene works and how it does not correlate very much with what is done here. Maybe it's a good thing? I don't know. :) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quoting The Sarge
It has to meet certain goals like.
- Work both big and small. 1x1 cm size and still be readable, 5x5 m size and still be useful.
- Work as a transparent shape on many different backgrounds. You never know where a logo ends up. It might end up on a moving background like a drone shot, still black or white background. On a patterned background etc. It has to work on all of them. T-shirt, car, banner...
- Should be usable for a lot of different people without messing up. Therefore the most simple shape and color theme that is hard to fuck up.
- A logo has no background. It should be transparent.
- A logo is about branding. Should suit the messenger and their values, put the messengers name and symbol in front unless some other clever idea is designed.
- Should be possible to animate the reveal of the logo.
- Should preferably have some twist that makes it memorable.
You've had the most recognizable tag for sure. Oh, and Bob Stevenson as well. |
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Scrap
Registered: Jan 2021
Posts: 14 |
Off course you are right, Sarge. From a graphics design view a logo is exactly what you described. Most well known logos in "real world" even don’t use any letters at all or highly stylized ones. In "scene world" a lot of people would see some stylish letters, showing the name of the group (or the initials) as a logo and don’t care of things, that would be absolutely relevant in a world of corporate identity and branding. After all, we are Fairlight, Genesis, etc. and not Mercedes Benz, Apple or Sony... But anyway, both points of view are absolutely ok. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
"Scene logo" is much more like "graffiti" - in the looks, but also how its used. Case closed. :) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
TRIAD |
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Scrap
Registered: Jan 2021
Posts: 14 |
nice graffiti… 😉 |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
Quote: Thank you Raistlin for arranging this compo! It's interesting to see all the entries and how the comments goes.
A personal reflection.
For me a logo is a shape distilled down to the most simple thing possible.
It has to meet certain goals like.
- Work both big and small. 1x1 cm size and still be readable, 5x5 m size and still be useful.
- Work as a transparent shape on many different backgrounds. You never know where a logo ends up. It might end up on a moving background like a drone shot, still black or white background. On a patterned background etc. It has to work on all of them. T-shirt, car, banner...
- Should be usable for a lot of different people without messing up. Therefore the most simple shape and color theme that is hard to fuck up.
- A logo has no background. It should be transparent.
- A logo is about branding. Should suit the messenger and their values, put the messengers name and symbol in front unless some other clever idea is designed.
- Should be possible to animate the reveal of the logo.
- Should preferably have some twist that makes it memorable.
Not saying all the logos posted are in any way wrong. After all I've been in the scene since the 1980s and I know the style inside out.
I guess Im just a bit surprised how logos outside the scene works and how it does not correlate very much with what is done here. Maybe it's a good thing? I don't know. :)
IMHO this list is for commercial logos this is for branding in the real world, c64 logos dont need to check all these, hence you can change the style if you want you dont have to put the same logo in the same style on every screen, its not about brand recognition and $$$. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
TRIAD |
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The Sarge
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 43 |
I think this COULD apply to our scene too. Just look at TRIAD as 4gentE repeats here. The striped logo has looked the same since the 80s. Its iconic. And everyone recognise it in an instant. Its brilliant. Also the FLT Druid intro. Iconic.
So if you want to be seen and easy to recognise, use the same logo, everywhere.
Also look at many pixel artists here. We all have the same way of writing our names these days. So a lot here is a brand too. :)
This compo maybe have a different goal, but these are my thoughts. And it always make me wonder why you don't want to have the same style and logo. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
Triad logo, yes, tho it doesn't check all your boxes: not size invariant cant be put infront of any backgr, etc. Flt druid intro to me its ugly and lame, its your memories about it that makes it iconic. I havent seen that intro in its heydays, so I was exposed to much more polished logos and musics for a long time until I first saw it probably in late 90's, and I wondered what the fuss about. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
TRIAD
Quote:not size invariant
Wrong.
Quote:cant be put infront of any backgr
Wrong.
Quote:etc.
Do go on. |
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Scrap
Registered: Jan 2021
Posts: 14 |
@Sarge Well, this is our hobby, not our company. I guess, most artists just want to try something new/different from time to time… no need for brand recognition here… who would care anyway? You also don’t want to draw the same picture every time, do you? ok, often cats, but they are all different… 😉 |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
Actually when you think about it, what groups have the best brand recognition in the scene? Eagle Soft inc. comes to mind. The iconic American Eagle (?) with floppy disk in the beak is unforgettable. Triad maintained distinctive brand feel too. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
Both Triad and Fairlight used different Logos, not just that one boring(!) one from their crack intro.
Some (if not most) of these "corporate design" logos in this compo don't qualify as proper "scene logo" at all for me for that matter. Just dull and boring. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
Point taken.
Quote:boring(!) one from their crack intro
I don’t really know what qualifies as boring logo.
Wanna have a poll about TRIAD logo being ‘boring’?
Like: Classic TRIAD logo is:
a) boring
B) iconic |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
iconic and boring are not mutually exclusive |
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The Sarge
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 43 |
What qualifies as boring is a personal preference. What is boring for me seems to be exciting for someone else, and vice versa. So that debate could go on forever.
What is interesting is if a logo works on a technical level and how it is remembered for centuries, or not. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
In 10 years (or more) most of us wont remember *anything* :D |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4612 |
Quote: In 10 years (or more) most of us wont remember *anything* :D
 |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
Quote: In 10 years (or more) most of us wont remember *anything* :D
I will never forget you. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
Quote: In 10 years (or more) most of us wont remember *anything* :D
Oh, I’m halfway there. Wait, what was I saying… ;-)
Quote: iconic and boring are not mutually exclusive
You, sir, are sharp indeed! You immidiately saw through my cheap shot. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 491 |
I'd like to see a rule being added; Transparency about using fonts.
I've seen some entries which are completely based on a font, and some that are handcrafted. That's kinda unfair (if kept a secret).
For example using a font:
Vs handcrafted type
(@groepaz, you mentioned it somewhere before. The font issue sure was addressed, but we decided to keep the doc short, and not go into too many details). |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1059 |
Quoting SanderI'd like to see a rule being added; Transparency about using fonts.
Why a rule and not just let voters decide?
Lazy logos are going to be voted down anyway. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 491 |
Quote: Quoting SanderI'd like to see a rule being added; Transparency about using fonts.
Why a rule and not just let voters decide?
Lazy logos are going to be voted down anyway.
Voters cannot ‘decide’ if it was self crafted. One could only know if it was mentioned.
The voter should know what he/she is judging. If the Carillon logo was handcrafted, I’d rate it very high. But knowing it’s a font conversion, the appreciation is much less.
‘Lazy logos’ is interesting, making something look simple, and good, is usually the most difficult :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
So maybe same way every effect in demos should be labelled if realtime or not code is copied from another coder or not, and SID pieces too, why only GFX gets this threatment?
How do we know that Vision logo is original work?
https://www.dafont.com/barett-street.font?text=Vision |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: So maybe same way every effect in demos should be labelled if realtime or not code is copied from another coder or not, and SID pieces too, why only GFX gets this threatment?
How do we know that Vision logo is original work?
https://www.dafont.com/barett-street.font?text=Vision
You can never be sure it's original, but I am. :) |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 491 |
Quote: So maybe same way every effect in demos should be labelled if realtime or not code is copied from another coder or not, and SID pieces too, why only GFX gets this threatment?
How do we know that Vision logo is original work?
https://www.dafont.com/barett-street.font?text=Vision
Maybe, I’ll leave that to the programmers.
Good point about the Vision logo, as Hein did not mention a source, I assumed it was his own. That’s how it works.
In case of Carillon I recognized the font and asked Aleksi to be open about it. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: So maybe same way every effect in demos should be labelled if realtime or not code is copied from another coder or not, and SID pieces too, why only GFX gets this threatment?
How do we know that Vision logo is original work?
https://www.dafont.com/barett-street.font?text=Vision
The comment about code is one that I was thinking about today… there’ve been some demos of late that have quite seriously borrowed others’ ideas.
The music bands playing instruments along to the music
The Daah! Those Acid Pills (copied a few times, most recently in Multiverse).
Comafight
Performers’ weird D800/anim scrolling layers thingummy (Lethargy made a homage to this)
Etc etc. I’m sure I’ve done it myself too.
I’ll try to give references in future for things that I’ve copied, if i do… but I tend to try to avoid just downright copying others’ work - unless I see an avenue to make them seriously better (eg. The “Bob-trail” effect in No Bounds - adds a scrolling background AND more bobs than Bob had, and pretty much matches what fREUd was doing but without needing REU). |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
Quote:How do we know that Vision logo is original work?
Because Hein said so, and that should be more than good enough for us.
As for coding copies, my knowledge here is severely limited, but a vastly more skilled coder once told me that reverse engineering code is a few orders of magnitude harder than nicking a font. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
UPDATED RULES:-
1) we will now allow 6 (SIX) entries per person;
2) entries will be split into 4 (FOUR) categories - "MultiColour and Mixed", "HiRes", "PETSCII" and "ECM". Please tag appropriately on CSDb. I'm open to suggestions on how best to do this .. the "compo" dropdown of course doesn't have the right categories.............. but on C64GFX.com I'll tag everything appropriately ahead of voting.
Updated rules here: https://www.c64gfx.com/compo/CharSetLogoCompo2024.html |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quoting 4gentereverse engineering code is a few orders of magnitude harder than nicking a font.
You didn't see my 80s demos then ;p .. Expert Disassembler was the Google/Codebase64 of the 80s. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 491 |
Quoting RaistlinThe comment about code is one that I was thinking about today… there’ve been some demos of late that have quite seriously borrowed others’ ideas.
These code analogies don't work in this context. (And concerning that, the desired solution is of course being transparant about it).
Let's talk about the pixel graphic and the compo instead.
The first rule 'All entries must be original'.
Love that of course, creativity should be encouraged.
Therefore I personally judge on ideas, style and handcraft.
I'm personally not against using fonts for this compo, but please be open about it, and at least give it a creative twist of your own. There are many cases inbetween the Vision and Carillon logo of course. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
Quote: Expert Disassembler was the Google/Codebase64 of the 80s.
I was a caveman that never got past Smon. ;-)
Sorry for this distraction from the subject. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
@Raistlin:
C64GFX.com says 5 entries per person. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: @Raistlin:
C64GFX.com says 5 entries per person.
Sorry! Fixed now. I was home alone trying to update this at the same time as doing spellings and math with my daughter - so missed pushing an update.
Probably more info than you needed though :p |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
@Raistlin:
Yeah, “I was home alone” would suffice. ;-)
Anyway, thanks for doing all of this. |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 430 |
Quote: Sorry! Fixed now. I was home alone trying to update this at the same time as doing spellings and math with my daughter - so missed pushing an update.
Probably more info than you needed though :p
But.. but.. did you learn something? Pretty generous from your daughter she teaches you math. And spellings d-Ö-b two thumbs up! |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
So, I've now split the logos up into the 4 categories on the C64GFX website: https://c64gfx.com/compo/3391
I'm not sure if there's a way to show this split on CSDb nicely..? There just aren't the right categories here really.. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
Good job 👍. |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 229 |
Please excuse this off-topic plug, but maybe this is of interest for some in here. I liked it, since it reminded me of my prepress operator days: Graphic Means - A History Of Graphic Design Production (2017)
A pretty decent docu, and i believe there's some inspirational value. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
I've added some code to my site-generator for www.c64gfx.com to allow me to "fix" lots of the compo names.
So, for example, for Fjalldata 2024: https://www.c64gfx.com/compo/3332.html
I do this with some very simple "patch" XML, which is how a lot of the patching on C64GFX works. I just have a script that uses this:-
<!-- Fjälldata 2024 -->
<Event ID="3332">
<Compo Name="C64 Graphics" NewName="Graphics"></Compo>
<Compo Name="Mixed" NewName="Monochrome Graphics"></Compo>
<Compo Name="Mixed Graphics" NewName="PETSCII"></Compo>
</Event>
and remaps everything from CSDb's compo-naming to "proper" ones. I can remap on a per-release basis as well if absolutely necessary ... but the above is much simpler. I can also set the display order by just using the order of the lines - so in the above example we'll have Graphics, Monochrome Graphics, PETSCII.
Everything I'm doing with C64GFX I'm trying to do in a way that's easily maintainable and that will merge changes made on CSDb.dk with those made on C64GFX.com - the latter overriding the former, of course, as the site slowly moves away from being "patched CSDb screenshots". |
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bepp
Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 264 |
@Raistlin Looks grate! \o/ Awesome to be able to view the entries side by side. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
@Raistlin
I think You should remove this from PETSCII and put it into multi-color.
Hokuto Force Deco
or out of “mixed” compo category and into “C64 Graphics” category. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
4gentE: thanks! I’ve fixed that here and will update on C64gfx tomorrow :-)
There are also several releases in the wrong categories on CSDb now .. locked entries though. I’ve fixed them for C64gfx but can’t do anything about their category on CSDb unfortunately… |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1825 |
You could just paste the entry link with a comment like "should be something else" as a message to mods (or basically any mod in PM even) and we will check it.
You can also throw lists at us or use the "Discuss this release" link for a straight drama! :)
Most of us usually answer and work on the DB even though we are all nazi stalker mods. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3137 |
I've removed the pixelnacho bitmaps from the charset logo compo, I guess he hasn't read or understood the rules. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Thanks Ian.
There were a few more logos where the displayer was showing bitmaps ($d011=$3b) but where the logo -does- work as a charset. In those cases, since the logo does actually convert to a single charset, they're allowed.. though ideally we should be presenting the logos directly in a form that proves that restrictions are met (I don't want to add this as a rule as it would be unfair at this stage).
These 2 pics from Pixelnacho only work as bitmaps, though, so need to be excluded from the compo :-( |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
EDIT: ignore me .. I saw your post now. So if an entry doesn't meet the rules, it goes to Out of Compo. If there's a valid entry that the submitter wishes to not be in the compo, it goes to OOC. Aha :-)
Was removing them from the compo the right thing to do though I wonder..? Isn't precedent to move to "Out of Compo", such as with the Medusa logo? |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2084 |
Quoting iAN CooGI've removed ... bitmaps from the charset logo compo, I guess he hasn't read or understood the rules.
One would think a C64 graphician would know what the difference is... obviously that assumption was wrong as in OCD Logo (Multi-Col Chars) or before H0kut0 F0rce Logo
I think, 90% of the competitors get the concept and terminology. However, rules on https://c64gfx.com/compo/charsetlogocompo2024 is coined a little like beating around the bush and will leave some competitors as helpless as they are. And even if only 10% of the upcoming entries till end of April are in Bitmap Mode, it will drive sane people crazy and cause a lot of cleaning up and detective work and be it only the audience to figure out and discuss in comments IF it was possible (due to no. of tiles) to display the same in CharMode... Well, if it's possible, then, dear competitor, please DO IT FFS, e.g. in PixCen it's actually super-easy, you can set Mode:Char and *abrakadabra* export a valid entry in CharMode, even as crunched c64 executable, pretty sure, other tools can do the same.
Bottom Line:
I think it makes a lot of sense to explicitly exclude any entries with $d011 having bit 5 set.
The most harmful consequence of such a rule could be teaching gfxians sth about the VIC-II, so if this is all Greek to you, read in German here: https://www.c64-wiki.de/wiki/VIC#Speicheradressen_des_VIC-II or in English here: https://dustlayer.com/vic-ii/2013/4/22/when-visibility-matters |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
@TheRyk: creating PRGs in char-mode isn't difficult, I know, the problem is more the delivery platform than those.
1) C64GFX doesn't currently hold PRGs/D64s. I might look into it sometime - but I'll see... it's not a "collect everything" database like CSDb, there is a little bit of moderation going on and planned;
2) CSDb's rules are clear. If a new release is made, a new entry needs to be created, which would be unfair for the entry on CSDb. CSDb isn't the compo-platform, though, so it's what's submitted to C64GFX that matters - and there we don't need the PRG, we simply need a way to validate an entry... eg. CharPad files. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1047 |
For those needing to convert pngs/gifs/jpgs to charsets on linux/win/mac, feel free to check the current dev version: png2prg 1.5.2-dev.
Only thing not supported yet is PETSCII, will add that for official release later.
@Raistlin, I like how you found a loop-hole to trigger TheRyk ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
If someone needs to produce a prg from petscii, just send me a PM (or mail) with the pic (any format, including png) - the upcoming petconv can do it :) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118 |
Or you can, I don't know, poke one byte-table to $0400, the other byte-table to $d800, all in the same loop. It will make you feel invincible. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1047 |
I have just released png2prg 1.6, which now supports all standard charset modes as well (PETSCII, ECM, mixed mode and individual d800 colors per char). |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Hey Everyone, please PM me your email address if you would like to be able to vote on the C64GFX.com CharSet Logo Compo 2024! As mentioned earlier, this compo will be voted on separate to CSDb - the CSDb scoring system doesn't apply.
We have something very cool to try out with the voting - I can't wait to see how it goes :-)
ALSO, please ensure that your entry is grouped correctly on CSDb and on C64GFX.com. Any that are in "Out of Compo" that shouldn't be, please change to match others. If you're not sure, just set "C64 Graphics" and I'll fix it for you. If you're in "Out of Compo", I have to assume that that's by choice.......... |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
5 days left for entries!
Let me know if you want to vote. CSDb votes mean NOTHING in this compo :-)
Anyone interested, too, the voting system is really really cool. So nice. It’s third party - I’m not bigging up my own solution here - and it’s just so so nice.
Drop me a PM with your email and I’ll add you to the list. Voting opens on 1st May! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
Quote:CSDb votes mean NOTHING
fixed :) |
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dm
Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 8 |
Hi, I'd like to ask Raistlin (as the organizer) why are my two entries (Victory Vindicator Logo and Victory Cyan Logo) placed out of compo eventhough I correctly categorized them?
Sorry for bringing this matter to forum, but you didn't reply to my PM and I am looking forward to sorting this out before the compo deadline, so I thought this may bring it to your attention. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Hi dm,
I've fixed that now. You had the "Compo" setting on your releases set to "Out of Compo". I'm not sure whether that's the default on CSDb, actually, it might be?
I'll update the C64GFX.com website now too - that grabs the compo types from CSDb if they're set there.
I can't assume anything with entries, if entries are placed in "Out of Compo" on CSDb then I can only assume that that was done deliberately - eg. if the person has created more than 6 logos, or they don't wish to compete, etc etc.
Sorry for delay answering your PM .. I've been prepping to move house this week - I timed the end of the compo badly perhaps (but all will be fine, don't worry). |
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dm
Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 8 |
Oh yes!
Thanks a lot! |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Our voting system is prepped, I shall be turning on voting at midnight (CET)!
https://pollunit.com/en/polls/c64gfxcharsetlogocompo2024
Please let me know if you would like to participate in voting - ALL CSDb registered users can join. Just send me your handle and email address through PM or at raistlin@c64demo.com.
You'll love the voting system, honestly, it's soooooo smooth. I just test-voted ALL the entries, doing a "gut reaction" mark-out-of-ten, and it took me less than 5mins!
Good luck everyone! |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
By the way, for anyone wondering how I'm validating entries..
1) for any where $d011 is set to char-mode (eg. $1b) or ECM ($5b), I just check for writes to $d000-d3ff (VIC and shadow-registers) at run-time .. some logos are using IRQs, so hitting $d019, and then not doing anything else - this is of course totally fine. If a logo was changing $d018, $d011, $d016 or other on various raster lines, that would of course not be fine. Some displayers might set these every frame - totally fine so long as the values NEVER CHANGE (repeatedly setting $d018 to $18 doesn't harm anyone);
2) where $d011 is set to bitmap mode, it's harder. We need to do a deeper dive to be sure that the logo is -possible- in charset mode. In future maybe easier to ask for the executable to use char-mode.. but anyway. These logos must use 256 chars or less. One logo in particular hit bang-on 256 chars .. but in a popular conversion tool was showing as 257. 256 -was- definitely possible, though, as "blank" chars aren't needed - they can be blanked by setting the screen colour value to match the background (so long as the background is a 0-7 colour).
So, yeah, someone had suggested that I post onto each pic a count of the number of chars used. IMO, this isn't necessary - it's enough to just agree whether or not each logo meets the criteria. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
Voted. Smooth experience. Didn't care that much about format, just intiutive voting. Awesome voting system. Smooth compo organization. Thumbs up. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Thanks CreamD :-)
Voting seems to be going well. Lots of positive feedback coming in :-) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Anyone interested in voting in the compo, please PM me :-) .. 41 voters registered so far - though only 29 of those have cast votes to date. |
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bepp
Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 264 |
Perhaps the "steps required to vote"-flow could be made more clear? I tried myself but failed on the first attempt.
> ALL CSDb registered users can join. Just send me your handle and email address through PM or at raistlin@c64demo.com.
I tried to login to Pollunit with my Google account but was not allowed to vote. Do we need to register with handle on Pollunit? Or can you add it somehow? SSO with csdb? =)
Thanks! |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: Perhaps the "steps required to vote"-flow could be made more clear? I tried myself but failed on the first attempt.
> ALL CSDb registered users can join. Just send me your handle and email address through PM or at raistlin@c64demo.com.
I tried to login to Pollunit with my Google account but was not allowed to vote. Do we need to register with handle on Pollunit? Or can you add it somehow? SSO with csdb? =)
Thanks!
Sorry! Anyone wishing to vote just needs to give me their email address - over PM here is easier (so that I know your handle from CSDb) :-) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
@bepp, did you still want to vote? I PM’ed you too but never heard back..? |
