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User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 12 December 2024
Quote:I don’t like seeing people chased out of the scene.
@Raistlin:
I understand. But you got it backwards. Here's a real story. Bear with me. I won't name any names. I was 'accused' last year, a little bit roughly, that I was "chasing someone out". By a scener whom I love and respect. It hurt, and got me thinking. As it later turned out, nobody got chased out. These days, another scener I have a lot of love and respect for, a fine gfx artist, is all set to leave the scene, to take a break of unknown length, because of all this dishonesty and mindless doubling-down. So, from what I saw with my own two eyes, your argument (concern, fear) just failed to stand the test of reality. In fact, your concern and sympathy seems to be pointed in the wrong direction. |
User Comment
Submitted by Electric on 12 December 2024
| @Raistlin I must point out that there always was a difference in ripping someone's code straight or looking at the code, learning how it was done and executing it on your own. 'Learning' is the key word here. The case is pretty much the same with AI gfx that in the end abuse other people's work. |
User Comment
Submitted by Zierliches Püppchen on 12 December 2024
Oh dear, that's coming to the big bang faster than expected. Is it possible that your nerves are on edge in your private life and at work thanks to AI?
Today I look at pictures more than just a souvenir when I meet a few friends at a party.
The great art offensive of world culture is not my thing. But I like to see technically crazy things and if AI supports implementation, why not. When I see a real work of art with its own recognizable style, I rate it extra.
Always remember, it's almost Christmas, you'd rather work on the family. :-) |
User Comment
Submitted by El Jefe on 12 December 2024
@Raistlin: It's nice to see that you're so upset and that you can only resort to trying to defame other artists like The Sarge, to defend what Facet has been up to for the past few years. Facet was of course “clever” enough to stop using existing images at a certain point and generate his own through AI.
Anyone who has experimented a little with prompt to image AI has of course recognized how Facet and others (e.g. his c64 apprentice Critikill) proceed to create their “unique” motifs.
This and the timelapses that CopAss has posted regarding real and faked workstages should help to understand. Its so ugly to see how workstages are faked, it really hurts and makes me sorry for the guys who feel the urge to do it.
What pleases me most, of course, is how desperately you try to attack me and deny me the right to criticize certain people because I don't release anything ... and to see how nobody cares about it. :D
I promise you that, if I ever release anything, I will dedicate it to you personally. <3
PS: You did not really understand what Higgie posted about "rules" in the demoscene.
PS2: To be honest, I prefer 100.000 Talents/Facets/Critikills to rage-quit the scene due to criticism about their "work" than only one single honest artist quits, because he notices that most fellow graphicians are cheaters! |
User Comment
Submitted by PAL on 11 December 2024
Critiquing art for being 'unoriginal' or demanding step-by-step proof is like grilling a magician about their tricks - just enjoy the magic instead of spoiling the show with endless skepticism!
kill it or leave it - up to you all! |
User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin on 11 December 2024
I did say re: “rules” that -the scene- never had rules. Compos, of course, but the scene was somewhere where anything goes. In cracking, there were recracks. In demos, people copied code, or just “cracked” a whole demo. In graphics, loading pictures were ripped and signatures added. And everything in-between.
“Best Practices” sounds more acceptable, for sure. But if people don’t follow them, just drop your evidence in the thread and perhaps stop chasing with pitchforks - it’s not a great look for the scene.
Re: language in the scene. There’re never been rules about that either, anything goes. Does CSDb have that rule? Maybe, I have no idea… if it does, just try to remember that CSDb isn’t the scene, it’s just a website supporting the scene.
Apologies if I was rude yesterday. I don’t like seeing people chased out of the scene. It went way too far with Talent last year .. and Critikill’s just come to the C64 scene and been met with this aggressive feedback too.
That all said, if compos have no-copy rules, for sure, anyone caught copying should be disqualified. It’s up to the orgas to decide that once the copying is known. |
User Comment
Submitted by Joe on 11 December 2024
| It was hijacked to begin with - claiming to be crafted artwork, which it's not. Now he will enter as I, will sit in my chair and keep watching for the Burgtheater actor to enter. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
@hedning:
Yes, I agree. I think it would be far better if offtopic (unrelated to the release) discussion got steered to the forum right away when the topic hijack begins. Or never. The arbitrary way it works now is, well, let’s say sub-optimal. |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 11 December 2024
| Copass, 4gente: I just meant moving this discussion to the forum. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
User Comment
Submitted by jmin on 11 December 2024
| Don't care much about the (repeated) AI discussions, but Thomas Bernhard and the Wiener Burgtheater (my second living room so to speak) being mentioned made me smile. What a crossover 馃槉 |
User Comment
Submitted by Joe on 11 December 2024
| I feel like Thomas Bernhard in his "Woodcutter", sitting in the chair watching all the guests coming, just waiting for that Burgtheater actor, this clown, to show up. |
User Comment
Submitted by Higgie on 11 December 2024
Are people seriously talking about “rules”in the demoscene??
yep! :)
if it's just the word "rules" that triggers you, i might also could have said "guidelines" or "best practices" or ... pick your favorite or add your own!
rules might change over time. but they do because something else changes. nowadays we have "mighty" generative AI and other means of faking at our hands. we ("the scene") are trying to find a way to deal with it. and I for myself try to evaluate the new/upcoming technologies and practices against the "rules" i have learned during my scene-years. If I find that things somehow don't fit, I will say so. That doesn't mean the end of the discussion. And I don't want to enforce anything neither could I. But as long as there are releases popping up that are raising questions for me, I will use the comments function to voice my concerns - though not everytime. i still have other things to do. ;)
btw: if you are denying the existence of rules/best practices/... in the scene context, i think english shouldn't be the main scene language anymore, what it certainly is. please let everybody use the language he/she likes.
Ich fange mal mit Deutsch an. ... Aber das ist ja zu einfach. Das kann man sich ja ganz einfach mit Google übersetzen lassen.
Villicht schölen ik dat mit plattdüütsch versöken? ;) |
User Comment
Submitted by CopAss on 11 December 2024
@Raistlin: "post-processed converted image" vs "drawing from scratch"
the final image never matches the sketch, as the content and composition are constantly evolving along the way. it is refined.
fools gold - joe: https://ibb.co/yVgXcPj
slobber - the sarge: https://youtu.be/hOPguluQUDA
escaping an dinner - copass: https://youtu.be/fLU7HeTB7c0
end boss - critikill: https://ibb.co/TH282r2
green man - facet: https://ibb.co/58MdKhy
do you see the difference?
joe,sarge and I have reworked either the whole image or just parts of it several times.
with facet,critikill the contour is there perfectly and they don't touch it once.
they don't touch the sketch because they copy from a finished image.
you can't see how the image was created, just "puff" and there's a finished contour and all you see is dithering! wtf?!:D
Anyone who has ever drawn knows what I'm talking about. |
User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin on 11 December 2024
“Raistlin, how would you feel if lame demomaker demos got voted to top spots by your fellow sceners? Because it’s all good fun and they don’t care. Would you go on coding with same gusto?”
Sure. I mean, maybe not demomaker.. but, for me, many demos charting and winning compos are lame - code wise at least. It’s been that way for a while now. Demos are no longer about the best code - it seems we’ve gone the way of the PC demoscene so that stories and animation ideas win over technical wizardry. It’s sad and annoying… but we press on and we’ll be back at future demo compos for sure.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand the argument here re: AI or wired art .. but to attack every posted image.. and to not give evidence of copying etc.. I dunno, it’s a bit weak.
Compo orgas can ask for workstages or whatever proof they want. Maybe there can be some live-drawing compos as well?
Facet’s pics are stunning. I’ve only seen 1 piece of evidence of a copy, the car pic, and that’s the same evidence that El Jefe showed me a long time back. If there’s more, it would be interesting to see. But even with that car pic, although the shapes match, a ton of work was done on coloring - copying that I’ve seen of others, including those who’ve weighed in on the no-copy thing and shown the 5-fingers logo, has had much less extra work done. If those fighting the no-copy cause are also copying, isn’t it a bit hypocritical..? |
User Comment
Submitted by CopAss on 11 December 2024
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
| Constantly adding fuel to the fire, actively pushing for one side, then occasionally crying out for moderation is getting old. |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 11 December 2024
| Maybe some moderation would be good here too? |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
Quote:I don't know what you would say if demos filled with AI pictures from your shared source code started flooding the scene.
The real question here is: Raistlin, how would you feel if lame demomaker demos got voted to top spots by your fellow sceners? Because it’s all good fun and they don’t care. Would you go on coding with same gusto? |
User Comment
Submitted by CopAss on 11 December 2024
@Raistlin: if a competition is not regulated then this is what will happen:
fucking cheaters win and flood the scene with shit...
we are talking about the two biggest cheaters: Critikill and Facet.
it has been proven 100x that they copy/montage/AI images, convert, faking the workstages.
this is not art! this is trash!
you don't recognize it by its art style, but by the effects and lame compositions.
but let them create freely, post it here, anywhere. no one limits them in this.
BUT they have no place in a fucking graphics competition, where everyone follows the rules and submits their own work!
a photoshopwizard like this comes along and copycat, AI generates it.
So he can't draw a fucking rabbit by himself, but he can't even compose...
With this fucking great "freedom" it was achieved that at every party several cheaters get into the top 3...
real artists don't add picture. because why would they if an AI-wizard wins anyway.
példa:
Mystdata: 7 picture entries, 4 AI convert.
results: 2,3,4,6 AI converted entries.
last place Leon! Leon who has proven a million times that he can draw!
I don't know what you would say if demos filled with AI pictures from your shared source code started flooding the scene.
then you wouldn't say that. |
User Comment
Submitted by Electric on 11 December 2024
| @Raistlin I suppose people just don't really like getting flooded with AI – similar reaction all over, not just here. If this was about ripping someone's code the treatment would be different which tells there are at least some unwritten r###s. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
Quote:I really enjoyed the show here -
a little social experiment like expected.
One would be pardoned to think that this statement should slow down if not completely stop both "sides". Or at least the "freedom defending" one. The Amiga fatcat tells you it was a an experiment to agitate you ridiculous C64 lab mice. That your silly antics are enjoyable. Like a circus. Yet you go on. Hilarious really. |
User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin on 11 December 2024
Are people seriously talking about “rules”in the demoscene??
Compos.. yes. Set by the compo orgas. The scene? Absolutely not. Never was and never should be. Do whatever the f*** you want IMO.
I wish people would stop throwing their toys out of the f***ing pram because others aren’t doing things quite how they like.
So much whining in the scene nowadays.. seriously, I think there was less when you were all teenagers.
And El Jefe: I’d comment on some of your releases, seriously, I would. Except THERE AREN’T ANY. I can’t see anything that you’ve actually done - which makes your incessant whining even more annoying. Sorry, man, but you really need to get off your arse before real sceners take you seriously ;) |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 11 December 2024
| Yes. Dodo birds should have been the natural pick for a C64 scene mascot, instead of cats. |
User Comment
Submitted by Isildur on 11 December 2024
Nice details, even if it is AI convert. Just wondering why so many guys are obsessed with cats here :D
CatSceneDatabase |
User Comment
Submitted by Higgie on 11 December 2024
"it’s really fascinating how serious some take
their demoscene-life"
Taking things serious and having fun at the same time is nothing out of the ordinary. That's the case with many hobbies. Else it would be just foolishness. But if that's your hobby - ok. ;)
If you are e.g. into hiking (like your funny bunny) for fun, you should take things serious too. Else you might pick the wrong shoes, get lost in the woods or get eaten by a bear.
To me the demo scene is a team sport which comes with certain written but mostly unwritten rules that developed over time. And most of them have proven to be useful. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2024
| But what's up with all the ailurophobia? |
User Comment
Submitted by Critikill (CK) on 11 December 2024
I really enjoyed the show here -
a little social experiment like expected.
With lots of human made emotions and it’s really fascinating how serious some take
their demoscene-life :-D
Cheers
Love. Peace. Demoscene |
User Comment
Submitted by Higgie on 11 December 2024
what is art and what's not?
my brain's full of (k)nots!
what knots?
cat's paws!
i need a pause!
i need some air rest!
(#humanmadepoetry) |
User Comment
Submitted by El Jefe on 10 December 2024
| This seems to mark the pinnacle in one of the most bizarre series of debut releases from a gfx artist in the c64 scene to date! Congrats! :D |
User Comment
Submitted by Burglar on 10 December 2024
| too many ppl with assburgers here ;P |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 10 December 2024
hendig :D
And it’s spelled “hamberder”. |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 10 December 2024
| And Burger is spelled "burger". :O |
User Comment
Submitted by Burglar on 10 December 2024
| I especially like the incorrect English :) |
User Comment
Submitted by astaroth on 10 December 2024
| The image really made me laugh, fantastic idea, therefore 10/10 |
User Comment
Submitted by CopAss on 10 December 2024
| another AI crap by CopyKill! |
User Comment
Submitted by Joe on 10 December 2024
| 50 year old men with no fantasy of their own. Hilarious! |
User Comment
Submitted by Joe on 10 December 2024
| I could bet that was a Black Friday pixel off for a cheap prize XD |
User Comment
Submitted by E$G on 10 December 2024
| Nice, it looks more like a Spectrum-style graphic. We won't fall for the AI's bait |
User Comment
Submitted by Joe on 10 December 2024
| Nice! Is there any workstages on this one? |
User Comment
Submitted by jmin on 10 December 2024
User Comment
Submitted by katon on 10 December 2024
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 10 December 2024
| Oh, I see, finger cropping is a matter of a wider artistic style. Let’s see if it catches on. |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 10 December 2024
| Lol! The FBAI Will take you all! |
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