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Forums > C64 Composing > Composing music in general, techniques, hints and tips

2011-02-10 11:46

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

Composing music in general, techniques, hints and tips

What I really miss is a topic about music composing in general. If I haven't found an existing topic regarding this, but if we have any, let me know about it.
(There are many topics in Composing section, thanks god there's a good seraching engine. However it would be great to have more categories inside 'Composing' for easier browsing.)

I want to start this topic about the music composition itself, which is always a mystic topic and there's no real perfect method of teaching it in schools even nowadays.
On one hand this is the beauty of composing, that it cannot be described consciously in its entire form, and one can never say he learned everything.

I want to write a book/article in the future about the logic and lexical knowledge behind music composition, as there aren't a lot of comprehensive books or webpages that give us a complete picture and directions to improve.
One good (and possibly a standard) is Arnold Schoenberg's 'Fundamentals of Musical Composition', which gives a lot of understanding to composition itself (not music theory!).

If you have knowledge and experiences which you want to share with composers all around, feel free post your replies into this topic... and at the end we will have something at CSDB which will be a guide to refresh the spirit and knowledge of musical composition.

What this topic would exclude:
-The music theory (literature about chords, staff, etc..) - many books and videos can be found all around on the net.
-The use of trackers and analog synthesis techniques of SID, which is another topic, bit related of course...and has been discussed already afaik.

I'm looking forward your contributions with tips as well as questions/replies - discussions :)

Hermit Software Hungary

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2011-02-11 20:18

The Phantom

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 360

I used to play keyboard, self taught actually. When I heard a jingle on TV or radio, I'd turn on the keyboard and play it. I'm the same way with my guitar, if I hear it, I can likely play it.

I listen to EVERYTHING! Trance is likely my favorite, but I listen to Rock, punk, some metal, a small bit of country and much more. I can play a few classical songs and have even tweaked them to the point of sounding better than the original, so I'd like to think I have that portion down.

My music teacher was actually my friend for several years. We worked in the same building, and he taught many students, LOUDLY.

There are even some trance songs I can play on guitar. Last ninja remix is one. Some floyd I can play. I guess my point is If I hear it, I can get very close to it.

Did I mention I'm partially tone deaf?

What music editor is the most popular and which is easiest?

If I can translate trance to guitar, I shouldn't have issues at all bringing it to c64. I find most editors very complex and it frustrates the hell out of me trying to figure out how to define specific notes. It was easy on Amiga, when I used acid tracker, so perhaps it would be easy with goat tracker? I've heard that was easy to use, even installed it, but never got around to using it.

I'm also guessing practice makes perfect. I can't expect to jump right in and start composing, which is what i am expecting, haha.

I'd love to see this topic continue, as I'm learning more and looking forward to actually making some music/sids. And that's something else. How do I make a sid? Is it easier to make a sid than say, using future composer or Jch's player?

Thanks everyone, this is one Topic I will enjoy reading.

2011-02-12 00:36

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

@The Phantom: Seems to be the suitable topic for your further reading about trackers (and even composition at the end, as I've just realized..):
SID music software recommendations?
What editors are PPL using now?
Sorry for not gaining that topic here, but as I wrote in the first post, I'd like to avoid tracker specific info here, because there must be topics already for that.
However in short, my experience after trying many trackers is, that XSID of Jeff is very featured native editor. GT is excellent crossplatform editor. (SDI, JCH, SID Factory, DMC, even simpler Hardtrack Composer and Ninjatracker are still top sound-quality editors, but harder IMO.) I'm also working on a C64 native tracker which will have all the required features...If I manage to finish.
---------------------------------------------------------

Staying at topic, I'm glad to see, we agree on many things. I'll bring up some new objectives very soon.

Hermit Software Hungary

2011-02-12 07:12

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

Anyone who wants to get control of what he is doing musically, should take lessons.

Learn an instrument, like piano or guitar.

And anyone who wants to develop their own music style, should do as much different as possible.

If you only make eurodance, you will get stuck, and can only do... eurodance. In this way, limiting yourself.

If you ever run out of ideas, and have 10+ unfinished tunes, and no way to see how you ever gonna get them made, then its time to listen new forms of music, be open to new things.

2 years ago i had 2x6 months of piano lessons.
It took my music from "sometimes an idea" to "always an idea", and it gave me perfect hearing, so i always can play on the synth, what is inside my head.

If you develop the inner ear, you have come a long way.

As for music theory, i dont pay much attention to that.
If i want to "do something like that", then i just do it.
If its not good enough, or as i want, i keep working on it until it is. I never stop and i never give up.

2011-02-12 13:24

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

strike that, no time.

2011-02-12 14:31

celticdesign

Registered: Oct 2005
Posts: 148

well, you can learn instruments and play them very well. i never learned it for real, but i can press some keys and create some simple chords. i create some sequences and play with them around like hell; mostly until something turns out or until i give up. i've no fun to make something perfect. at least all that makes me just, lets say medium, composer.
i am not interested in any specific styles. i don't tend to compose classical stuff, orchestral, jazz, blues, latin or whatever. that is far to complex without deep knowledge. i always love it in the experimental way. i like music very much and listen to many different (mostly 80's) styles. i like rythms, sounds (especially synth sounds). i like electro, rap, dance, r&b, rock (progressive) and everything that gives a smile to my ears and to my soul (well, also pink or katy perry can do this from time to time such as rage against the machine, tool or clutch). just to mention some examples...
humm, i am not that good at composing or creating new sounds on 64. that's ragging on me. i wish i could do it as mighty as linus or jammer... ;-) i think fresh and fitting sounds are one of the most important thing as you can make some simple beats/sequencing and can really rock the show with using the right sounds.
but hey, all that has nothing to do with composing. you can't learn to be creative! making progress with his creativity is another point. at least you've to be unique. don't try to copy someone too much. find your own way with the right composing tool.
sorry if i didn't get the point. just some thoughts before launching...

2011-02-12 14:50

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

The discussion starts to be very interesting...good to think about all others viewpoints and argue a bit in a friendly manner.

I think Rambones's first point is to avoid limiting ourselves. BTW, somehow an instrument can be a limit too, until we don't really get a master on it. That's why an inner ear is the most important - the funny thing is, which so seems to be a contradiction: when we eventually learn to play an instrument by ear, our inner ear will improve.
It's not surprising BTW, we will face many contradictions, because music is not like math, not that perfectly defined.
Therefore I guess we can never have an absolute answer/method for 'how to make music'.
All we can do is to investigate until we find the best way to express ourselves (like rambones said), be it a fairly controlled or entirely feeling-aided process. The other thing we can do is to define some rules, because there are some rules, at least in a specific music culture, time and region. And I don't mean strict rules here, but some aids/tips/hints which fellow composers can grab to have a stable point, where to go from.

Bit philosophical point, but when we talk about music, sometimes it seems we talk about nothing. It's because we talk about many things on one or on the other side, and at the end we won't have any strict laws and a completely defined system. It's good, because everybody can decide which solution one prefers over the others. And it gives the possibility to find out new things and be unique more or less.

I agree on the music theory thing. We shouldn't let ourselves controlled/blindfolded by music theory, that's a good point. As you can see, this topic/article even excludes talking much about music theory in the beginning.
BTW, when it comes to scales, there can be found some theoretical occurences in the connection between modal scales and corresponding chords. One can hear by ear, and yet another person can only figure out chords by rules. Modal scales and pentatonic scales can be a good point to start even a piece that will be expanded with 7ths and 9ths later. But when someone wants to avoid limitation of modal scales at all, and wants to do something new, can invent some own scales. I think our mind has somehow adjusted to modal scales btw, as most of the music we listen builds upon these minor and major and compatible things. Hard to get into something different.

So as a conclusion we may agree there are no strict laws at all that we have to follow, because making such things would cause everybody doing nearly the same thing. Still unavoidable to get known to some rules, but we can use (or don't use) them subjectively, depending on us, whether we are able already to invent something new, specific and beautiful by ourselves or not...
Looking at Celticdesign's statement, it's really a good idea to not to strictly follow styles/genres of music. They are well invented routes to get something that will be favoured more likely by many people. Creating in a style can still result in a unique piece, up to a limit.

From now on I'll try to avoid the philosophical bloated sentences, and I feel the time has come to get started with concrete ideas on composition, like Rambones's tip about learning scales on an instrument.

2011-02-12 15:31

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

ok my example:
Theory Lesson 1

please read the trivia.

in my opinion you will need to use a kb/piano to figure out what i did with the scale, that is the basis of this whole tune.

the scale is: f g g# a# c d d# (f g)

i play it backwards, with every note before the scale note, first.

you should also try to do this, if you want a chance to see what is actually done.

and then remember in the end: its all just a single scale.

for non SDI users, press p on startup screen to choose pal.
then press shift + L to load tune, return to choose.

F1 to play, and f4 to see tracker play.

2011-02-12 15:47

jssr67
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2011
Posts: 33

Quote:

From now on I'll try to avoid the philosophical bloated sentences, and I feel the time has come to get started with concrete ideas on composition, like Rambones's tip about learning scales on an instrument.

I would like to put my considerations in a few sentences.

Listen to very different kinds of music. Even those that you personally dislike. Always listen to it consciously, to get an idea of what makes up the core of it, what makes up the "feeling". Either to be able to create such a feeling, or to avoid it, whatever is your intention.

Do never listen to music consciously, as it lures you into unconsciously repeating its patterns, istead of creating something new.

Learn all the composing rules of different eras. So you are able to write somthing in renaissance, baroque, classic, impressionistic, ... style. But the most important of these rules is that you have to break the rules on purpose. To be able to do so, you have to know them.

Always remember that almost all pieces of music that follow common rules, already have been written. If you have a good tune in your mind, the probability that you remember it but don't remember that you remember it, instead of invented it, is almost 1. At least, if you have listened to music often in your life.

And the most important: even though there are some common patterns to all listeners, whether a piece of music "hits" the audience is only in small parts owed to its composition. It has to be presented to the correct audience, at the correct point in time. Much good music nowadays fails in that point, not in its composition, and this is beyond the composer's scope. Actually, they even lose against pieces that are much weaker being looked at with composition criteria.

2011-02-12 15:54

iAN CooG

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3138

Quote: