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mstram
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 112 |
Do you compose with midi or trackers ?
Just wondering what the workflow is for the musicians here now and in the "old" days ?
Are you composing with a midi keyboard / software, then converting to a tracker / utility to create SID "instruments"?
If so, what conversion tool(s) are you using?
Or are you composing directly in tracker / other software .. i.e. not "playing it in realtime" ?
Mike |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
I compose directly in a tracker, mostly. But have a synth that I use for coming up with ideas (the notes). |
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mstram
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 112 |
Hi Jeff,
I have a bunch of your tunes in my playlist(s) :)
That's (sort of) surprising that you mostly "track".
But do you input notes with the tracker "stopped" .. i.e. "one by one", or do you "play" the computer keyboard while the tracker is running. Renoise is one of the few trackers I've found so far that lets you do that.
I probably say that since I've only learned about, and started playing with trackers recently.
I have used midi sequencer software, starting with Logic / Notator on my Atari ST (still have them both ! ;) )
But even with that, I was playing into it with my Korg M1 (heh still have that too ;) )
My music-theory skills are novice level, and it would take me "forever" to "analytically / track" something like your "8th Frame" tune.
I *can* however quickly play along with the various rhythms of the song on a keyboard, and let the software figure out figure out the exact note timing / placement.
Mike |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
i make music directly in the tracker, from the head where the music is. then i find out some stuff on the synth, mostly chords.
i think you should just get started.
i created video tutorials for SDI music tracker, to get more people to start, or bring back old composers.
you will find the first one here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOTDMXVPXw8
they are all on my youtube channel, named 01 SDI xxxxxx, 02 SDI xxxxxx, etc.
Sidwave's youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/diabelez?feature=watch
in the menu, click videos (i dont know it appears from outside)
Good luck.
forget about midi, and forget about converting anything usefull. make your own tunes, for each tune you finish, you improve. there is only one way to learn to play, its to keep doing it :)
There is a SDI 3 with midi, but its not finished, and it will be a long time before it is.
There are other trackers, but i only want to mention the modern ones, which are im works/where there is an active person behind them, to make improvements or fix bugs.
using old programs from 80s and 90s.. then you never get anything made :) IMO
so i will only mention 4 programs: SDI, SID WIzard, Goattracker (PC), and Cheesecutter (PC)
the rest, are very.. crappy workflow.
workflow is the key to make what you want, in no time.
Check my videos. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Try watching this, here is me making a tune, you can see how it works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4_rWas_dVg |
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Mr.Ammo
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 228 |
SID wizard has this nifty tool that converts midi to SID Wizard format. That is, if I'm not mistaken (http://sourceforge.net/projects/sid-wizard/).
Goattracker for mac supports midi input. Don't know if you can record when playing midi, but you can use it to (step) input notes (http://www.sidmusic.org/goattracker/mac/). |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
For C64 i'm using SDI.
On the PC I've been using Orion by Synapse (a traditional DAW) for around 12 years. I'm thinking about switching to Studio One by PreSonus. I used to do the music editing with mouse / keyboard in the piano roll for the longest time. Just recently i've acquired myself a M-Audio Oxygen25 keyboard.
I tried Renoise for tracking on the PC and it seems very powerful. But i'm feeling a bit too old to relearn another tracker. Took me 6 years to get used to SDI. And i still dont have a clue what i'm doing :-D |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
While I have several synths and guitars I only use them to jam around to gather ideas.
All my C64 stuff is directly hacked into the tracker. I doubt you'll get very far trying to "convert" instrument data since you have to be knee deep into the sid to get decent results.
I also compose stuff in Renoise and Logic Pro (a traditional DAW) where things are different, of course. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Mstram: Yes, I type in the notes when the tracker is not running (not using some recording feature or so). It's pure editing. |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
Just as I thought, SID composers are really machine code programmers! |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 321 |
Quoting mstramAre you composing with a midi keyboard / software?
i use goattracker and sid wizard. i sometimes use a midi keyboard when making music on PC using various trackers and sequencers.
Quoting mstramutility to create SID "instruments"
SID instruments are not too difficult to create from nothing using the tracker's instrument editors. :) |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453 |
i compose on keyboard, arrange in milky tracker, program instruments in goat tracker and then the translation process starts. tiresome, ain't it? |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Arranging in Milky Tracker and then transfering to GT? That's tiresome indeed! :) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
As I've done many music routines myself, I have ofcourse done tunes in assembler many times aswell. ;) |
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psych
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 140 |
I put notes directly into tracker, but from time to time using keyboard to play with chords. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 501 |
No keyboards. Not on 64 nor doing the real world thing ;) |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 833 |
I put notes directly in the tracker. I also programmed the instruments from scratch for every tune I've done, because I always tend to make the instruments during the process of writing notes. Personally I don't like the idea of starting a fresh with pre-loaded instruments. |
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mstram
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 112 |
Quote: I put notes directly in the tracker. I also programmed the instruments from scratch for every tune I've done, because I always tend to make the instruments during the process of writing notes. Personally I don't like the idea of starting a fresh with pre-loaded instruments.
Heh, why not rewrite the tracker software for every song while you're at it ?
j.k. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 501 |
+1 to what Owen said :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
I compose straight from my head, no jamming* (although I'm humming the ideas sometimes). I'm sure that lack of skills as far as instruments playing and sheet music reading is hearable in my tunes, but I do them mostly to amuse myself, if they hit someone else's tastes, good. I usually start editor, load some old tune (or worktune) that fits my mood and tweaks sounds while composing. I'm not doing all sounds from scratch, but as I usually forget how I did use them last time I end up rewriting many of them. I can't compose in the trackers that have parallel columns, it bores me to hell (sort of (and the tunes are also kinda boring.. I did 2 tunes in GoatTracker I and GT II and they suck)).. I'm too used to DMC(v5), although it is getting confusing as the tune grows and keeping the tune synchronised, especially after using different durations in channels is sometimes quite tiresome. Also, I can't compose on PC in emulator, it feels totally unnatural to me. I sort-of need to hear the SID noise in backround whenever there is a pause.. or silence. ;-)
*I love to play piano keyboards (with one finger ;) I wish I knew how to play it ;-). |
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Wisdom
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 90 |
Straight from mind to SID, playing on keyboard with a purpose, playing on keyboard without a purpose. A blend of these three usually give me the best results now. Previously (till 2007, when I have bought a MIDI keyboard), I used to enter all notes from mind to SID.
Edit: Forgot to mention that I also use voice recorder app on my phone to record ideas by means of whistling, beatboxing etc. |
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pievspie
Registered: Apr 2011
Posts: 16 |
guitar to brain to paper to sid. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quote:Heh, why not rewrite the tracker software for every song while you're at it
That would be how jeff does it ;D |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Quote: Quote:Heh, why not rewrite the tracker software for every song while you're at it
That would be how jeff does it ;D
And not just Jeff. :) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Just writing a new player doesnt count stellan.
You need to actually code a whole new editor too.
And never finish it.
And only make one or two tunes with it, then abandon it because some punk prereleased it. or because your cat got sick. or .. :-D |
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Stone
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 168 |
Quote: And not just Jeff. :)
You guys are nuts :) After using the same Prosonix tracker since 1987 or so, this fall we finally step into the future with a native PC/Mac tracker (albeit with the same old playroutine). Of course there has been some abandoned new-tracker projects along the way...
When I compose, I usually start with the guitar. Lately I have worked a little with the piano also. I have never done any direct-to-hex composing since I wrote my first tracker back when my musical knowledge was zero. It was actually tracking that prompted me to learn the guitar. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Same here, Stein. Protracker made me want to actually learn instruments some 20 odd years ago. |
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
I punch in note by note in the tracker. No Midi. However, a synth is my best friend for cooking up some chords. |
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Flex
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 102 |
This is my style: First Renoise and midi keyboard for making the chordline (some "humming" at the same time). Type the chords into Goattracker and then just some basic bassnotes/-lines. Then I let it play and try to find the perfect melodies with renoise & keyboard. This way I many times get the core for my tunes and then comes the "polishing" and arrangement etc.. That's when the real sid work starts for me.
Composing with the ALD routine in assembler was not the easiest/funniest way, later on I made the tunes with FT2 and typed them into our player. Well, double the job anyway... Luckily I got to know Goattracker. :-) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: This is my style: First Renoise and midi keyboard for making the chordline (some "humming" at the same time). Type the chords into Goattracker and then just some basic bassnotes/-lines. Then I let it play and try to find the perfect melodies with renoise & keyboard. This way I many times get the core for my tunes and then comes the "polishing" and arrangement etc.. That's when the real sid work starts for me.
Composing with the ALD routine in assembler was not the easiest/funniest way, later on I made the tunes with FT2 and typed them into our player. Well, double the job anyway... Luckily I got to know Goattracker. :-)
when you have done that..
why not some renoise versions of you tunes ?
could be nice to hear Flex |
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Flex
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 102 |
Quote: when you have done that..
why not some renoise versions of you tunes ?
could be nice to hear Flex
I was probably not too accurate previously..
Actually I only use Renoise to get sounds out of the midi keyboard.. Therefore nothing is saved and no luck with renoise versions.. :-) |
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groms
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 4 |
This is my pipeline or whatever:
1. start goattracker
2. make a sound
3. type notes
4. polish sounds/notes
5. repeat point 2, 3 and 4 until I am feedup(sometimes I let it rest for some weeks/months before relistening and maybe get inspired to: 1. do more 2. release 3. delete)
and I do use a tiny casio synth/keyboard(no midi) for chords/arps....
SALUDOS! |
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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
Mr Ammo was rigth, SID-Wizard has the addon called 'SWMconvert.exe' that can convert (only the first 3 tracks) of XM/MID into native .swm
There are restrictions during the conversion, as MIDI doesn't contain exact information on pitch-bending/vibrato ranges by default, so at this time only simple notes are transferred and chords aren't converted into arpeggios...
Also, it's good if the MIDI file is as exact as possible to ease quantization if needed.
You can find some practical description and an example made by Necropolo for his tune 'Midichlorian':
8 steps
In SW1.5 we'll include the 'Lights On' tunepack example as well which was also done by Necropolo and was first composed in Reaper, than converted to SW for instrumentation...
Personally I also like to compose everything on the real C64 machine, but when time is constrained MIDI-to-C64 conversion can become useful for people who prefer editing via piano-roll view in modern music programs... |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
I'm with groms. But I don't delete scetches, but very often I don't finish or release them either.
I sometimes experiment with chords and themes on a synth set to electric piano preset first. |
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Stinsen
Registered: Feb 2012
Posts: 71 |
Mostly I start out at the piano trying to find some kind of chord progression to work with. Then I add it in the editor and play along it to find a melody to go on top. Since I mostly need to be able to play the whole shebang on the piano, it is of course a bit limiting. :) |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
I like to compose with an instrument in the hands. I am a guitar player but surprisingly a big number of actual guitar riffs that find a home in a rock album come from synth playing or C64 tracker composing. For example, this song existed as a C64 tune first:
https://soundcloud.com/wackormusic/borxx-redux
This is the original SID:
https://soundcloud.com/necropolo/borxx
Recycling my own stuff is not stealing I guess. I am not fuckin' Timbaland :)
When I use synths I prefer MIDI as I could build up a speed with it during the years. If creating a song in MIDI is 1 time unit then creating a song in a tracker is at least 10 time units. Now'days the time for fun stuff became drastically reduced for me so I prefer doing everything in MIDI then set the sounds in SIDwizard. As Hermit already mentioned, you can find some know-how in 8steps and an actual Reaper example included in SW1.5 and SW1.6.
Blessings to Hermit for the magnificient SWMconvert.exe :) |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
I usually compose a few bars in my head, and then transcribe them into Goat Tracker or whatever, and the rest tends to build itself from there. Never use any instrument or other piece of software than the target editor. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
I compose by arseing about on a keyboard (ESQ1 or piano, usually), but from there I type numbers into data arrays or function calls in the Python script that generates data for the player routine. I think I tried using a few trackers on the c64 back in the day, but never completed anything going down that road.
For the Katy Perry cover I did for Jam Ball 2 I didn't use a keyboard, just kept hitting recompile on the script each time I added a few notes. Think I actually got hold of the score for that one to use as a starting point.
I do keep meaning to write my own tracker, but I've never quite gotten around to it. |
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Scarzix
Registered: Aug 2010
Posts: 143 |
I used JCH-editor back then and since I came back I have been using CheeseCutter as its like a modern version of JCH-editor, but running in 800x600 on all "modern OS's" (Win/MacOSX/Linux) so its pretty fast to work with multiple tunes and keep workcopies. (Thanks to Abaddon/TRIAD for coding that awesome piece of toy!)
When I compose, I have multiple ways of starting a new tune:
1) Start the editor. Play around with some instrument ideas, jam some notes in, see how it works, just to have fun and hear whats possible (I have 20 years to recall, so a lot of experimenting to do)
2) Play around with a real keyboard/synth or on a synth app on a tablet. Find a nice lead, bass or chords. Then try to enter those into the SID editor.
3) record my own "none pro" beatboxing in the recorder of my smartphone, while I drive to and from my office, then when I have the time, try to make that bass/rytme/lead into a SID... which have worked a few times too.
Unfortunately I get a lot of ideas in the bath too, but I dunno if its a general problem with SID editors or something, but the computers tends to break down when I start composing in there, so I dont do that.
www.berggreens.dk
www.berggreens.dk/c64 |
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Overthink
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2013
Posts: 10 |
If I want to compose on the C64 all by itself I use MSSIAH Sequencer with a 1351 mouse. Unless someone asks for a tune for use in a C64 production, then I have to use SID-Wizard. I love trackers but struggle with creating synth patches in the form of hex tables. Generally though SID-Wizard is great, and I don't use it with MIDI although that might be cool if I ever decided to build an interface.
If I'm making music wholly on the C64 alone, I prefer to do everything with native C64 software, running on real hardware.
I use MIDI extensively in the rest of my studio though, and for projects where the C64's are integrated into other music, that's where MSSIAH shines.
Stuff I do is here...
soundcloud.com/overthink |
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Gop
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 4 |
I've used most C64 trackers, but these days mainly use Renoise or FL Studio on PC and convert to whatever format. The hardest part is finding time to do anything! Real life intrudes often... |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Notes directly into GT, instruments from scratch in every new project. I never have entire tune in my head - almost every one is practically improvised and composed in 'realtime' :D
My commercial projects, which recently oscillate mostly around orchestral scores are done with FL Studio and bunch of plugs. Composing methodology similar to the above. I click everything in piano roll, which scares the shit out of my fellow composers :D |
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GH
Registered: Sep 2014
Posts: 77 |
Nice to get a better insight into peoples workflow :D
Long, long ago in a Galaxy...I Started out with Logic 3.0 Audio till 5.5 (last PC version at that time) and soon I got into Steinberg related products such as Cubase and Nuendo. Also used FL Studio, Renoise and Reason back than.
Recently I started working with Reaper since Bas Bron (Thanks for convincing me since I was too much or better again, totally Nuendo minded:)) told me you get can get very good and quick results in userfriendly environment on the spot. I will drink more "Cockos" nuts from now on :D
Personally I try to take one musical idea, like one main lead melody, one rhythmic phrase, or just one "feel", and devolop that into a song.
Sometimes I start with the bass first where the little orchestra in my head mirrors it or decides what accompaniment/chords progression goes where.
Jeff Lorber fan ;)
I didn't know about the xm/mid 3tracks SW converter and will def. try it out since I often play the solos in/edit in matrix or quantize them. So I don't have to type in all the note for note lead and bass manually. It's still lotsa work, I know but in some song structures(less is sometimes more less but a good lesson;)) it can really be helpfully I think. So an extra cheers to Hermit!!
Now let's all release some more sids in 2015... ;) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
first making midi tune, and then convert + a bunch of manual work to make sounds, isnt worth it.
tune straight from head or parts rehearsed on piano first, is the fastest way. music must come from inside, not tedious editing.
the guy who started this thread, is just one of many, who wish for a quick fix to make sids, but has no knowledge, and is seeking the magical midi converter. to those guys: forget it! :)
always these questions like: "what editor/daw do you use ?" - people ask them, thinking they can reach your level of production, if they just use the same program as you do.
well, you cant :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
production skill/workflow, come from doing it over and over. far too many have been asking for the great editor, and when they get it, no tunes are made, coz the first is already stopping them dead in their tracks, coz its too hard. there is only 1 way, the hard way :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
its too hard for me to hack around with hubbard routine, i tried, and failed. it was my first dream.. it never happened. instead i made my own first tunes in a mediocre editor called music master by chris hulsbeck. for the time, 1987+ it was awesome. it was the first public domain tracker! before "soundmonitor" came, only elite like Red, MON, Yip, BOGG, etc - (sceners) did convincing music. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Soundmonitor excells at one point: it has quantized record!
Without any musical skill at all, i played in live those leads in the old tunes. never edited a byte, just rehearsed first, then press F7 to record, done! |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
When I used to compose, I actually only used a jews harp with midi... |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Buy this Soren, then you can make all the tunes by banging a single drum!
http://www.korg.com/us/products/drums/wavedrum_global_edition/ |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Sidwave: why would I want to do that? :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
i've tried doing conversions by going MIDI to (i think, it was a few years back now) Screamtracker, hacking it down to three channels in a four channel MOD file with MODPlug Tracker and then pushing the result through Goat's MOD converter...
My results were, well lets call them "interesting" for want of a less harsh word but it's at least possible to use the process in order to get a stream of notes over that someone with actual musical talent could try tidying up to get something decent going... =-) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
You are all lame! I compose with  |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Believe it or not, dear Jailbait, but the Kawasaki Rhythm Rocker is the sole reason I became interested in composing. I played with it for hours and hours back in the late 80s until I was able to convince poor mommmy to scramble up some money for an Amiga 500 after seeing Soundtracker in action at a neighbor's place. Poor mommy had to scramble up even more money that wasn't there for a Yamaha PSR keyboard a year or two later. Needless to say, Kawasaki Rhythm Rocker is a red rag to her .( |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
we could make a Rhythm Rocker music competition, bu ti guess it will fail, because people are not willing to spend the time to learn using it.. :)
I tried to make a tune in Geor Feil's (Synth Sample) editor, but i just failed. its some BASIC like command system, and well, 30 mins.. then i stalled. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Put a decent "how to" doc together for it first, then run a competition...? |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Compose ? I used to just hack shit into SDI until it sounded like something. Now i dont even do that anymore. I'm old and retired. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Yeah, it sounded like ... uhm ... "something" indeed! :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5022 |
Quote: You are all lame! I compose with
I got a lot of enjoyment out of that neat little program-in its days. it was really nice to fool around in it. |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
I make music by slapping wet toast with spoons. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Linus : exactly :D |
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GH
Registered: Sep 2014
Posts: 77 |
I see that Kawasaki Rhythm Rocker has a Dub-Step option with
F3-F5? ;) |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
... and it works surprisingly well. Way ahead of it's time, that's what it is. |
