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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 619 |
Questions about the demo scene of today
What do you think of the demo scene of today?
Here's my thoughts. Demos improved in the past and it is generally extremely difficult to come up with really cool effects. However, does this really matter? Demos are meant to be entertaining. Take Royal Arte, Deus Ex Machina and many other demos for example. I've been ever so impressed with the work put into the demos. They were entertaining.
As long as these demo groups are enjoying theirselves coding demos, or attending these scene parties, a massive thumbs up to them all :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5022 |
the demo scene today is still dieing and more than ever... just look at the ms2002 stuff, and you will see. I dont agree that there is nothing to improve yet, everything can be done better, and I prove this from demo to demo in my releases, but noone really cares, that I could make a texture cube about 2-3 frames faster than anyone, that I could make a fullscreen pixel plasma, ppl are imho bored and want really new stuff instead of improvements, new effects, new design, bla bla bla if one cant improve on things, he is not a kick ass coder simply... still there is so much left to be done, but fewer and fewer to realise it...
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
Well, i care if someone makes his routines better, etc.. I still like it when new demos get released, and i don't HAVE to see special, supercool, mega code, i wanna see nice demos. that's all... Thumbs up for the ones still trying!! |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: the demo scene today is still dieing and more than ever... just look at the ms2002 stuff, and you will see. I dont agree that there is nothing to improve yet, everything can be done better, and I prove this from demo to demo in my releases, but noone really cares, that I could make a texture cube about 2-3 frames faster than anyone, that I could make a fullscreen pixel plasma, ppl are imho bored and want really new stuff instead of improvements, new effects, new design, bla bla bla if one cant improve on things, he is not a kick ass coder simply... still there is so much left to be done, but fewer and fewer to realise it...
Mekka 2002 c64 stuff wasn't *that* bad... I saw worse parties in past few years. ;-)
I'm really sure that C64 scene is not dying, but returning on the right track. This Mekka was worse, next will be better. I'm pretty sure. Wanna bet? ;-))
CreaMD |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
MS2002 was a setback, but considering the releases last year I for one am a very happy camper, realizing that finally there seems to be put more thought in original concepts and idea's than just improving routines which were invented when the internet was still in black and white.
Don't get me wrong, I like a good technical demo from time to time but I prefer real depth anyday! |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Evolution has some very good parts. I especially like the sphere mapping with aditional effects. Also music is very good in this demo. I like it, although it could have been a little more polished. |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
The demo-scene is certainly not dying!!! Those who say this, aren't really present in the scene...
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 129 |
Mekka 2002 had not that good releases BUT one the other hand look at mekka 99 ! That party had not so cool releases either and look what happened at mekka 2000 :) ..
About demos in generall.... ppl have said since 1993 that senctence :) "there is not anything more to improve , there is no new effects that can be discovered etc" ..
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bubis
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 18 |
Quote: the demo scene today is still dieing and more than ever... just look at the ms2002 stuff, and you will see. I dont agree that there is nothing to improve yet, everything can be done better, and I prove this from demo to demo in my releases, but noone really cares, that I could make a texture cube about 2-3 frames faster than anyone, that I could make a fullscreen pixel plasma, ppl are imho bored and want really new stuff instead of improvements, new effects, new design, bla bla bla if one cant improve on things, he is not a kick ass coder simply... still there is so much left to be done, but fewer and fewer to realise it...
I think there are many math related effect what is not realized yet. I am not talking about new kind of plasmas. For example i have made fast rotating tunel on C=+4 (without speedcode). I have not seen this on C64. There are many new things that are still possible on this machine. I hope I'll have enought time and energy to make these. My dream is a hyperbolic plane animation on the Poincare model. Do you know Escher? :) |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 129 |
intressting no doubt about that... but i dont think any new effekts are possible without speedcode. |
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bubis
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 18 |
Quote: intressting no doubt about that... but i dont think any new effekts are possible without speedcode.
I think this is too strong statement. Every (not hardware) effect are possible without speedcode but of course speedcode is faster. |
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Carcass
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 17 |
just the fact that there was so many releases impresses me, but then we've only had 1 ntsc release this year, so i might be easy to impress right now. |
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Hello.
Granted, the NTSC scene is nearly comatose. There was only one demo release by Carcass?
Oh, I also released a small demo in 2001-02. :) Check out the CSDb entry for Coca Cola Santa Claus. This is a technically brilliant demo, even though it displays an image of the fat santa sipping on a Coke.
The SuperCPU is the last unexplored territory for the Commodore 8-bitters. Demo coders can really push the boundaries of the VIC-II chip, SID and CIA's, where all bit-banging can be easily done at 1MHz machine cycle intervals.
While it is nice to see demos coming out for the C64/128, I'd like to see more SuperCPU oriented demos that truly pushes the boundaries. Give one of these SuperCPU units to Graham or Crossbow and watch them work their magic. :)
Enjoy.
-Todd Elliott |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
I think Graham & Crossbow will continue to impress us even without SCPU ;-)) |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2896 |
Todd -
That NTSC release was from the group Arcane - coded by Carcass/Arcane.
It's a tad bit confusing when there was a group called Carcass and there is a scener called Carcass.
:)
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Personally, i dislike the idea of demos that require a SuperCPU, C64 demos are all built around the same "benchmark", a machine that pulls about 1MHz; the minute that goalpost starts moving we end up like the Amiga or PC scenes where an '060 is needed or a 3D video card... |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
fullscreen fli with scpu doesnt impress so much when hcl already did 40x26 chars big ifli on stock c64 :) |
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Black Belt Jones
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 57 |
G'day all. Well here goes my *first step* into the scene.
I want to say that i LOVE what you all do. I admire all that you do, whether its GFX/MSX/FX. It dosent matter whether any code is improved or not. Put it together with great pics and a killer soundtrack and no two demos are the same. They always have something new to offer, even if its a small thing.
For idiots like me who cant code or do a thing, and I wish I could, its great just sitting back with a smoke and whacking a new demo into the drive and enjoying. The only thing better than that was actually getting a fresh demo in the mail from the BRIEF-6 mths time I was in the scene a few years ago. Im was useless with coding or anything like that but the group Dark Crystal accepted me as a spreader.
Until 30 seconds ago I was just a spectator, downloading demos and watching. As of *now* I want to declare myself a scener! Im out there. And Im re-inventing myself as a musician. Ive been pounding away at the 64 with a copy of cybertracker and im almost ready to show my stuff to anyone who wants to listen.
People that say the scene is dying make me worried, I want to pat every active group out there on the back and thank them for the hours of entertainment provided to me. The scene R O C K S. Keep the 64 alive and strong.
Sorry if this was a bit long but I wanted to make my scene message clear. I love it all.
I hope all of you will welcome me into the scene with open arms. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2850 |
Release-wise, no-one expected anything from MS2002 afaik. In fact, I even was surprised about the number of releases.
I am strongly convinced that the releases and their number will improve within short time. And yeah, there actally are people working on demos and stuff. Just expect the unexpected. |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
Well people were hoping for stronger c64 presence at ms2002, but it has always fluctuated if you look back over the years... I think that there's more to come ;-)
However I think holding one's release back because there's hardly any competition is not really a valid reason... What is finished should be released.
/Frank |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
BBJ: "G'day all. Well here goes my *first step* into the scene. "
Welcome in the CSDB forums BBJ.
BBJ "I was useless with coding or anything like that but the group Dark Crystal accepted me as a spreader. "
Sebaloz also started as a Swapper and now he is an able Graphician and Coder. Don't worry it just comes with the ammount of work you do. More you will try, better you will get.
BBJ: "I hope all of you will welcome me into the scene with open arms. "
Scene is not a closed society. If you prove yourself to be an able member it will accept you somehow, automatically ;-)). Anyway have a lotsa inspiration, I look forward for your creations.
Have good time.
Roman |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Quote: G'day all. Well here goes my *first step* into the scene.
I want to say that i LOVE what you all do. I admire all that you do, whether its GFX/MSX/FX. It dosent matter whether any code is improved or not. Put it together with great pics and a killer soundtrack and no two demos are the same. They always have something new to offer, even if its a small thing.
For idiots like me who cant code or do a thing, and I wish I could, its great just sitting back with a smoke and whacking a new demo into the drive and enjoying. The only thing better than that was actually getting a fresh demo in the mail from the BRIEF-6 mths time I was in the scene a few years ago. Im was useless with coding or anything like that but the group Dark Crystal accepted me as a spreader.
Until 30 seconds ago I was just a spectator, downloading demos and watching. As of *now* I want to declare myself a scener! Im out there. And Im re-inventing myself as a musician. Ive been pounding away at the 64 with a copy of cybertracker and im almost ready to show my stuff to anyone who wants to listen.
People that say the scene is dying make me worried, I want to pat every active group out there on the back and thank them for the hours of entertainment provided to me. The scene R O C K S. Keep the 64 alive and strong.
Sorry if this was a bit long but I wanted to make my scene message clear. I love it all.
I hope all of you will welcome me into the scene with open arms.
Welcome to our paradise!
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QuasaR
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 145 |
When I visited MS99 I was very depressed and even thought about quitting since there seemed noone really releasing anything for the C64. Then came MS2000, X2000, MS2001 and last but not least X2001 with more than everything I expected... And so it's again a "not that good" MS2002 release-wise but I'm looking forward for X2002... And what are those ppl crying out that the C64 is dying??! Just look at the maniacs doing the RR and the cross-development-stuff! i think we have still some years to have some fun on our beloved C64-scene!! |
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Hello.
I originally replied yesterday, but the reply didn't make it into the forum? So, I'm trying again. :)
I would like to see more 'themed' demos from the demoscene today, if possible.
In the past, I've viewed often incoherent demos showing off some scrollytext, some math/plotting/3-d routines, maybe a plasma, some graphics, logoart, and a soundtrack. There seemed to be no rhyme or reason in the sequence of these demo effects.
It would be nice to have demos tell us a story or entertain us for a few minutes. One good example is the NTSC demos done by the 'Fatman' where it depicted the misadventures of a demo coder in a comic book layout format. The graphics weren't very good, but that is the kind of themed demo that I appreciate.
Nowadays, there's very little technical things demo programmers can exploit and explore on the c64. So, the next progression in democoding should try to lean towards themes and stories.
Enjoy.
-Todd Elliott
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Hello Todd,
There have been a number of 'themed' demos (concept demos) in the past: Red October by Triad (which I mentioned in another thread) is one of the most important ones.
The past few years have already shown a change of direction towards such demos. I would advise you to check out the latest demo's by groups like Triad (Manhood 1 & 2), Fairlight (Pretending To See The Light absolutely rules) and Wrath Designs (A quoi ca sert?).
Ah, and do this old judge a favor, also check out 'Timewaster' by Focus :)
Beware though, the themes of these demos are quite a bit 'heavier' than the adventures of a demo coder (for example love, growing up, homosexuality, relationships and projecting personal standards upon other people).
Have fun!
/Marco |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Ofcourse I mean Red Storm, not Red October ;) It's hard to write a coherent post when your gf keeps talking to you in the background |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
I won't quite as long as I have all these concepts and ideas lying around ;-) and they keep coming.... |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
allright, i might aswell promote a few demos/groups myself.
a qui ca sert? is a masterpiece in the way that wd managed to stick to the story and having a uniform style of the graphics. this is the first demo which i felt was really 100% solid , since there were no weak points in it and no sign of diverging from the concept.
i like extends demos, with their music they feel really fresh. and just when you thought you had their design figured out, they released hunger. a lovely weird piece which i still dont really understand :)
red storm must have been quite something when it was released, and i was really impressed when i first saw it. but now after finding out where most of the effects and texts where nicked from i feel that refugee is far more interesting.
civitas havent yet released something which i felt was really solid. puterman has a tendency to say things much to clear. i have noticed that it doesnt matter how hard you try to tell things in a simple manner in a demo, people will still misunderstand you(or not try to understand at all?) so its better to leave as much as possible to the audience imagination.
rewinder x and timewaster by focus are really worth seeing, and i wish that tdj would drop his normal life and dedicate his life to the demoscene, like some of us losers have :)
iopop, twoflower & mindflow of triad all have great skills which i hope they will show off more often, with more frequent releases. over the edge felt like a punch in the stomach when it was shown on bigscreen at floppy and i hope that there will be a new demo from them soon.
of the groups that are more into regular effect demos krill/plush is the most interesting, since he combines the math effects and the hardware coding with an eye for design. graham has the first two skills but seem to lack the innovative design ideas. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2850 |
Quote: Well people were hoping for stronger c64 presence at ms2002, but it has always fluctuated if you look back over the years... I think that there's more to come ;-)
However I think holding one's release back because there's hardly any competition is not really a valid reason... What is finished should be released.
/Frank
Which groups/productions are you referring to? |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
Gunnar: I'm just refering to some rumors I heard and I would think that it was a pity if they were true... Nevermind ;-) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Gunnar: I'm just refering to some rumors I heard and I would think that it was a pity if they were true... Nevermind ;-)
Never believe rumours, there are some *really* odd ones going around about me right now...! [Looks innocent] |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
T.M.R., don't worry, I myself personally have never believed you could fit 2 joysticks in there at the same time .. |
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Black Belt Jones
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 57 |
Is that joysticks or joypads.. need further clarification. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2850 |
Quote: Gunnar: I'm just refering to some rumors I heard and I would think that it was a pity if they were true... Nevermind ;-)
Those rumours are nonsense. I swear I could not have released anything even if I wanted to. And take that literally. <=-)> |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Is that joysticks or joypads.. need further clarification.
The rumour is two joysticks, but they're both Quickshots [wiggles eyebrows suggestively] |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
Quote: The rumour is two joysticks, but they're both Quickshots [wiggles eyebrows suggestively]
I shall believe you ;-) Love your stuff, btw!
/Frank |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
joy!
I don't know how people can doubt the scene is dying. It really is, especially outside the parties. The main releases away from parties are diskmags and some of them are released at the parties which is a shame. Swapper seem to find it harder to get non party releases to spread around. That is one reason I will not contribute to the parties (I can't make anything worthwhile as it's beyond my ability). Some people try. Too bad life destroyed the scene for so many. |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 129 |
c64 scene dying ?? dont know.... but there is no newcommers on the c64 anymore. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
ofcourse the scene is dying in a longer perspective, but when i started out in the scene in 95 the swedish scene pretty much sucked and hardly any swedish demos were released. it was a bit disturbing that we in alter were told that we were lame and that our demos were shit(those opinions were ofcourse partly true), but still noone would compete with us at the parties we attended in the country. with the releases at lcp2000&2001 and floppy 2001&2002 i would say that the swedish scene is much more healthy than it was when i entered. plus the fact that in my eyes, many of the demos released today are interesting. when i look back at the demos released a few years ago, many of them dont interest me at all anymore. |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Maybe the scene is dying in a LONG perspective, but people said that the scene was gonna die very soon back in 1995 too, so it seems to me like we've got a lotta years left. (coz there're still a lotta stuff cummin' out even 7 years later)
So i don't think you should worry *too* much.
(and if you've forgot it: C64 will never die!) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Maybe the scene is dying in a LONG perspective, but people said that the scene was gonna die very soon back in 1995 too, so it seems to me like we've got a lotta years left. (coz there're still a lotta stuff cummin' out even 7 years later)
So i don't think you should worry *too* much.
(and if you've forgot it: C64 will never die!)
i remember [leans on zimmer frame and looks reflective] back when the Amiga came out and everyone said the C64 was going to die soon... =-) |
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Black Belt Jones
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 57 |
Quote: c64 scene dying ?? dont know.... but there is no newcommers on the c64 anymore.
HOLD ON THERE! "i'm here!" and I feel I have potential and something to offer in the near future, Im just trying to hone my skills in at the moment.
BTW, has anyone ever tried to GET new people into the scene? I have many non 64 mates who come down for a beer and a few smokes around the 64 and watch demos with me all the time. Its only gonna take a little talking to get them into the scene and making gfx or music, maybe not any coding though!
You would not believe how many of my mates have been shocked after showing them Krestology or Soiled Legacy or ~whatever.... they always want to see more. This has gotta say something.
But if some groups feel like they are starving for ideas, Im sorry if this next idea has been done already, but remember I'm not a master YET! Why dont groups bring in some sort of a director/concept designer to almost "WRITE" the movie on paper, the coder give them a few demos to show what they are capapble of, then the designer starts writing, on paper, a rough intro concept, storyline, mood swings in the music. ending etc.... kinda lets the wizard coders do their magic, rather than drop off the scene when they run dry with ideas.
Im working on a few mates at the moment and who knows, maybe if between us we find a coder, well have a new crew! Im sure as the months go on many people like me are deciding to make the step from just a member of the audience to being IN the scene. mabye heaps of them are just reading C64Db, c64.ch, c64.sk, lemon64.com like I used to and are thinking, I wish I could be involved but I cant do ANYTHING on the 64.
Maybe we need to have some sort of FAQ pages on the net of how to become a graphician, musician or coder. Imagine, reading a document:
"so you want to be a graphician, first you need to get yourself a copy of..........."
i guarantee well get many newbies like me who have been waiting years to finally develop some sort of ability and GET INVOLVED, C64 will live forever!!! |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Not many of us, web-enabled (or addicted) people are able to get back to swapping, but at least we found better ways to spread our works over the web (finally). Look, few months ago you even didn't have to place to talk about dying scene ;-)). Look, less than year ago you didn't have convenient and well visited place to post the news about your works. Look, few years ago we didn't have place to argue about releases and discuss them. We also know much more about parties organised all around the Europe and thanx to the fact that we are all (at least as far as age is concerned) grown up, and more-or-less financially independent, we can travel around the Europe, meet our fellow sceners, and simply live the scene life to it's fullest.
I don't care whether the scene is dying or not, what is important for me that it's finally starting to work much better than few years ago. We are communicating more than before. It's all starting to feel like movement again. I'm not optimist, but rather, well informed pesimist and I see that people are on the move. Not only "oldcomers" (ask CSDB maintainers how many celebritneys joined the forums in last few days ;-)). I'm sure that some newcomers (not necesarilly young guys ;-) are getting more and more involved. And hey as far as inactive people is concerned, we not only need active people, we also need those who are lurking around, watch our works, and live with us. Those who contributed to the scene before us and still feel attached to it and also those who never contributed but enjoy your work of art.
roman
PS: I have few unaswered packages at home rite now. I'll send back soon!! ;-) (and I mean it) |
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bubis
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 18 |
Quote: c64 scene dying ?? dont know.... but there is no newcommers on the c64 anymore.
Except me. :) My very first C64 production was "Voxel Shade" and it was #5 on the MS2002 4K intro compo. :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: Except me. :) My very first C64 production was "Voxel Shade" and it was #5 on the MS2002 4K intro compo. :)
I'm sure, you are not alone. ;-) |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Quote: c64 scene dying ?? dont know.... but there is no newcommers on the c64 anymore.
There are still some newcommers, be sure of that!!!
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I for one hope these 'newcommers' bring a dictionary :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: I for one hope these 'newcommers' bring a dictionary :)
Aww c'mon, you're being a little harsh there... Terrible spelling and piss-poor grammar are the heart and soul of the scene, we'd be lost without them! =-) |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 592 |
Quote: What do you think of the demo scene of today?
Here's my thoughts. Demos improved in the past and it is generally extremely difficult to come up with really cool effects. However, does this really matter? Demos are meant to be entertaining. Take Royal Arte, Deus Ex Machina and many other demos for example. I've been ever so impressed with the work put into the demos. They were entertaining.
As long as these demo groups are enjoying theirselves coding demos, or attending these scene parties, a massive thumbs up to them all :)
This question is being asked for more than ten years now.
Anyhow, the scene still isn't dead yet, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm pretty sure it'll last for atleast another decade.
Wanna know why?
Way back the coders had that immense pressure of making several demos a year. (Otherwhise they would have been called 'lazy' and all that stuff...) Nowadays people release their stuff whenever they want - there's no rush involved anymore. That's why things still get better every time! More time - more ideas - cooler demos.
Well, that's what I think!
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Black Belt Jones
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 57 |
I totally agree!, theres more of a feeling of anticipation now for a killer demo to come out. Its about quality, not quantity, as long as we dont see like 1 demo every year!
Its a bit like a band, you dont want your fav group to pump out average albums... you want them to take their time and produce something wonderful.
Yeah Matt, i second that :) |
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Bert/RDS
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 17 |
Quote: c64 scene dying ?? dont know.... but there is no newcommers on the c64 anymore.
I disagree. There are newcomers (like me). The sad thing is that most of the "celebrities" and super-sceners of today don't seem to appreciate it, but keep ignoring them or making fun of them.
BERT |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: I disagree. There are newcomers (like me). The sad thing is that most of the "celebrities" and super-sceners of today don't seem to appreciate it, but keep ignoring them or making fun of them.
BERT
It's not so simple to get a respect. Some people might look high-nosed, but do you know anyone who gained respect or fame just by claiming that he is here. Everyone who is highly respected in todays scene gained his fame after the years of hard work. And still, some people stay unrecognised for ages. Raiders is quite known to me. I remember your Dual-Head and I'm sure when you will release more things you will get more attention. I (we all ;-) look forward for your creations guys.
Roman |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: I disagree. There are newcomers (like me). The sad thing is that most of the "celebrities" and super-sceners of today don't seem to appreciate it, but keep ignoring them or making fun of them.
BERT
The scene functions in a way that means you need to actually prove yourself to some degree before you're accepted - this is probably not the best way for a group of people to act, but old habits die hard and if you look as far back as the first ever demo coders (the PDP coders at MIT) they behaved in the same way.
What doesn't help for newcomers is that the C64 scene as a whole is full of piss-takers and if you watch #c-64 on IRCNet and you'll see what i mean; loads of insults, terrible jokes, insinuations but all done in *fun* because we *enjoy* ragging on each other.
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
Some thoughts..
Personally, i think the way the scene is today requires something a bit different than Groups.
Just look at the situation, there are alot of graphicians & musicians (judging from party entries) but not a lot of coders.
The real hardcore coders can be counted on one hand..
That creates a problem, as every coder is actualy a Group.
Its very rare to find a group with more than one coder today & i think this has to change.
Having one coder in a group work on a demo by himself is the major reason for the big gaps we have between big demo releasing.
Its a hard & demanding work & there's no one to share it with!
I started 64Ever not as a group, but as a label.
I want to work with as many ppl i can on different projects, doesnt matter if they're part of a group or not.
Cooperation is the key word here!
I think the result will be more quality demos released in shorter periods of time.
I'd like to read your thoughts on this :)
Raven/64ever |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Raven:
It depends I think. If you're just creating 'normal' demos cconsisting of a bunch of effects & pretty pictures your idea will suit fine. Ofcourse this still means going back to the 'coder is leading' stance.
However, if you want your demo to be more coherent, and you're not able to do everything yourself (which very few people are) then you need to have a really special relationship with your co-creators. People who know you, understand you and feel the same way about the road to be taken. If your ideas are somewhat wilder than "let's create another plasma effect, now with even more colours in the border", these people will be hard to find. And if you've found them, you don't want to let them go, you you make them sign a contract which binds them to you for life. And thus you have a group :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Raven, i think the scene is already proving you right on that count; look at how things are now compared to say ten years ago, with co-operations being the norm rather than rare occurences. Crest & Oxyron working closely together, GRG churning out vast amounts of quality music for anybody who asks politely, Jailbird doing the same for graphics and these are random examples, there are more.
Although i think the "scene in harmony" philosophy has as much chance as a frog in a blender, we're a much more tight knit community than we were; part of that is the enhanced communication we have but it's more due to necessirty than anything else. |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
@TDJ :
Its not really about being able to do everything alone, its more about the time it takes.
We sceners are not highschool kids anymore (*sigh*) with half the day free for coding & no worries at all..
Its just my experience working on Insomnia.
Making a high standard , polished demo requires huge amount of time.
Ofcoz you'll have to be on the same 'wave' with your co-creators, but you wont know unless you try :)
I already found one such dude, Vip , who did all gfx ,music and improved on my screenplay & design.
He also surprised me with some code-improvement ideas.. :)
I approached a few coders in the past, to work on a demo together.
They refused on the grounds that 'every coders works in a different way'.
Ofcoz we do. Thats why we're individuals!
That can also make a demo much more interesting to watch imho, having more than one distinct style.
Anyway, back to work! have to get the demo done :)
Raven/64ever |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Raven, just 2 lines:
"Ocoz you'll have to be on the same 'wave' with your co-creators, but you wont know unless you try :)"
Ah, but why would you risk losing time getting on the same level if you already have such people in your group? Just compare it with a relationship: if you already have a girlfriend you feel comfortable with, why test others?
Ofcourse if you don't, then it's different, then you almost have no other choice than to just 'fuck around' :)
"That can also make a demo much more interesting to watch imho, having more than one distinct style"
Hmm, that's where we disagree, I like my demos to have one distince style. Meaning that the whole demo feels really as a whole, not just effect-shows thrown together. Ofcourse that's also possible when there are more coders working on it, but that means lots of communication and in my experience, most coders are not too good at that. Believe me I know, I've seen 2 very talented groups I formed (Focus and Analogue pc) going bust because the coders continued to do their own thing.
Oh if only it would work out, then I could hire you to do our coding and I could concentrate on writing scrolltexts :)
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Working together in harmony is NOT what this scene is all about :) personally I enjoy all the ragging and slamming and I disgust at the idea of being 'friends' with everybody, just bcoz they're in the 'scene' too.. what does the 'scene' mean anyway nowadays? To me it's just proving your own worthiness...
btw, I never had other coders wanting to work together with me anway.. (well, at least not the guys I'd *want* to work with..) PPL are just more interested in *their* own productions..
btw2 : when are you going to release Raven? 'Your' (and other ppl's) demo looked almost finished (except for some small bugs in the drive routines and that border-scroller) It's been almost one year now! :)) hurry up! :))))) ppl will get mad at me, for not having forced you to release it ;) |
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Raven wrote:
<<<
Just look at the situation, there are alot of graphicians & musicians (judging from party entries) but not a lot of coders.
The real hardcore coders can be counted on one hand..
That creates a problem, as every coder is actualy a Group.
Its very rare to find a group with more than one coder today & i think this has to change.
Having one coder in a group work on a demo by himself is the major reason for the big gaps we have between big demo releasing.
>>>
Hello.
Why do I sense a huge swing of the power pendulum swinging my way? :) It's wierd to see that my skills would be so scarce as to command demand from the demo scene. :)
I'd rather have quality over quantity these days. If it takes longer for talented demo crews to do their art form, the better as long as quality releases are the end result.
While I may not have the time to do coding tasks that is the foundation for the demo scene, I certainly do have the patience to wait until the next great release.
Enjoy.
-Todd Elliott
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
@WVL:
I'm surprised you feel this way, but thats your opinion.
Working together with other ppl is part of the fun i think.
About the demo, the story is very simple. I knew i'll be going on a trip to Europe only about a month before X2001.
I didnt have time to finish the demo like i wanted but i didnt want to arrive empty-handed.
What u saw was a nearly finished Side-1 (some bugs & sync problems left) and 60% of Side-2, with almost no real linking at all.
About the so-called drive bug, it never happened before or since so i really cant do anything about it.
I think it was an old & misaligned drive, thats all.
My bad luck...
Anyway, its been 6 months not a year (still too long) but i hope demo will be out in the next couple of weeks :)
It'll be worth the wait :)
@Eyeth:
Problem is, there are too many ppl sitting around waiting for releases instead of doing something creative..
Think about it.
Raven/64Ever |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
"Problem is, there are too many ppl sitting around waiting for releases instead of doing something creative.. " (Raven)
I second that.
Roman |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Raven :
I'm not angry or anything :) I just want to get a new quality release in my empty hands! Spend all the time you think you need to polish it and make it perfect, I've got patience.
Also, I don't think there are a lot of guys just sitting around doing nothing, the number of really good guys CAN be counted on one hand! |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
sorry about the double post, but here goes :
Raven : at x2001 Insomnia ran on a 1571 drive, maybe that's the problem? What kind of loader are you using? what's weird is that side 1 didn't seem to have problems with the drive, and the drive is in *fantastic* condition, it's not misaligned a bit..
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
@WVL:
Seems you dont remember correctly..
First time, the demo ran on a C64/1541 combo, where it failed duo to bad loading.
Then you guys switched to the 128D and it ran perfectly.
So, the only thing i can think of is that 1541 drive..
I myself own about 7 1541 drives, 3 1571 and one 1570.
The demo runs 100% on all of them so i cant blame the loader here..
It also ran fine on Vip's 1541mkII in the party-place.
Like i said, i wasnt able to make that problem happen again at home so i cant even try to 'fix' it.
But, i have an idea. On the demo disk, i'll include a small tool which will load & calculate checksum for all the demo files and let you know if the loader is working 100% on your drive.
Good enough?
Raven/64Ever |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
>Crest & Oxyron working closely together, GRG churning out >vast amounts of quality music for anybody who asks >politely, Jailbird doing the same for graphics and these >are random examples, there are more.
wow...you can get material from people outside your group? amazing :)
anyway, cooperating always seem to be difficult. even though i often have a quite clear idea of what i want to accomplish i never manage to do that, because i suck. also i like to decide everything myself and this does not work that good. when i ask goto80 for a tune in a certain style, i usually get something different in return. always great music, but usually not what i had in mind. then there is the thing with deadlines, wiggen usually completes the fonts in time, like the night before the party. i got the music for 'pretending to see the light' at floppy so synching stuff in the demo to the music was quite impossible. wiggen and goto80 are however very reliable compared to a few other people who i wont mention here:) but i can imagine that working together with lots of people, perhaps living in othe countries is a nightmare.
to avoid such problems i try to do most of the stuff myself, this has its disadvantages like the demos looking like crap but atleast they get done. and you will just have to live with "hollowmans trademarked bad graphics" |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Actually that different countries shouldn't be an issue, when all of the developers are on the net and can transfer stuff to their c-64s.
The only obstacle can be language or people thinking it's good practise to download emails once a month :)
In the internal bit of the padua page we have a collection of all unreleased logos, musics, fonts and routines and a preview section, the works.
A real timesaver...
But style IS an issue, and my experience so far was that the more people work on a production, the harder it is to style it correctly without deviating into different small styles.
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
> wow...you can get material from people outside your
> group? amazing :)
Sarky git. =-)
Seriously, if i'd tried asking someone of Jailbird's calibre for a picture five years ago i'd have been laughed at (maybe it's easier if you're in a "big name" crew...?) i do speak from a little experience, check the credits for "Contraflow" where i ended up doing half the sound work myself because nobody else in Cosine had time and nobody outside seemed willing to help short of T.L.F. and we were just using his old tunes as supplied by Kenz.
Okay, so it's not working together in the way you mean, but then again we have different approaches to demo coding. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
raven :
You're right, my memories were a bit clouded :) forget about the loader, bcoz it's very well probable the 1541mkII wasn't in that great order.. I should've use the 1571, as that one was in really good shape, but then again, some loaders don't like 1571's, do I didn't use it for the compo. Anyway, make me happy very soon please :)! |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
I was lucky..
When Vip came on board we both had jobs with 24/7 inet connection. We worked infront of computers so basically we were both on ICQ all day, every day.
I think i barely did any work for a long time.. we spent hours every day discussing design, gfx, music and exchanging stuff.
We sent previews to one another on almost a daily basis!
That was a great experience, getting almost immediate feedback (sometimes it was immediate.. i'd send a piece of code and Vip would watch it on the CCS the second he got it).
I didnt quite feel we live in different countries :)
Raven/64Ever |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
Although being able to develop with others in person would be nice. Some things are hard to explain etc. It has been something I have hated about living in Australia, all others still doing stuff like code, gfx and music do not live here :( |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Strykker it works on the job as well: Distributed development, actually sometimes the time difference can work in favor for you as well. :)
For example I do my video conference with my developers in India when I leave the office, and next morning when I come in the work is done :) (let's not start talking about quality though)
But working next to another is a lot faster, that is true.
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