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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Mr. Rating Balancer - hello !
Mister :D Whoever (or whatever scripted) you are and scanning people's/prod's ratings and "voting" low, like 4 or 6 to keep those people/prods suddenly not appearing high on lists you are my hero and I love you. [ Just seen this "voting" again on Stinsen's rating page ].
C'mon, don't be shy, reveal yourself. :) |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
oh look it's this thread again |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
yeah, it's hilarious |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 833 |
mmmmmmmmmm ... sprouts! |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Oh for fucks sake.
I quite frequently vote 6 for products which are in my opinion just above average and 4 for those which are just below average.
Although, I'm not doing it anonymously, so you're probably not searching for me. |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
we have a "6" for comaland - too... but tbh it just makes me smile sometimes.
i almost stopped worrying about such votes a long time ago. upvoting / downvoting / namevoting... its just part of c64 scene history. so be it |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Yazoo, if there wasn't that 6... Comaland would be top in the csdb Top demo chart after X-2014... and that would be just fair, because according to voters at party and overall mood of comments it's the most entertaining demo seen in last years. I don't know what's reasoning behind this vote, I can only guess, but for me it's embarrassing on multiple levels. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Sprooooouuuuuts!!12 |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5022 |
Put a 10 on ComaLand, did not help it tho I havent put my 10 on Uncensored (yet:) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Scheisse porn!
And chickens don't hibernate. |
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Britelite
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 51 |
Quote:I don't know what's reasoning behind this vote, I can only guess, but for me it's embarrassing on multiple levels.
Is it really that impossible to imagine that someone doesn't think the demo is that great? |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: |
The "1"-vote on Uncensored is gone and/or censored at least. :) |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
BUt the 6 for Comaland remains, and reasons are indeed embarrassing... |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quote: Quote:I don't know what's reasoning behind this vote, I can only guess, but for me it's embarrassing on multiple levels.
Is it really that impossible to imagine that someone doesn't think the demo is that great?
It's not this mate. It really looks like deliberate attempt to control the scoreboard :)
Again, sorry, Stinsens rating
Votes Percentage Rating
8 42.1% 10
8 42.1% 9
2 10.5% 8
0 0% 7
0 0% 6
0 0% 5
1 5.3% 4
0 0% 3
0 0% 2
0 0% 1
First of all, on composer page web says that's 9.1/10 (19 votes)
You go on rating page, and he's 54th with Metal (which has another excellent idiotic balancer *single* vote 3)
54 Metal 9.07
Stinsen 9.07
Which is a miscalculation
Now, the true rating should be somewhere 9.21 let's say (175/19 right, it's not 9.1 but 9.2 , 9.21)
this should give him position around [31] Shogoon
however, ruling out the Mister RB vote, he's then simply 169/18= 9.37 same as
11 Laxity 9.37
..and that's where it's reflecting this persons current tunes quality, which is a subjective rating of course, but just go and listen in HVSC if you please.
Fair enough? Am I an idiot? I am, but just saying - if we want to have some proper crowd rating system, why not make one and cut this crap out? |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3136 |
Quote:
cut this crap out
yes. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quoting iAN CooGQuote:
cut this crap out
yes.
Indeed.
Who gives a flying fuck? |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
lolz who gives a fuck about anything? if you don't give a fuck then don't! ;) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Perff from 2002:
"I will not describe exactly how it is calculated, but I'll try to come with a brief explanation here.
The weighted average is a modified mathematical average which take into account the spread and number of votes.
This results in that the weighted average will always be smaller (or the exact same) as the mathematical average.
The higher the spread and/or the fewer votes, the lower the weighted average is compared to the mathematical average.
Noone said that this is the correct way to do it, but it's better than simply using the mathematical average."
Also Perff, a year later:
"As I posted in another tread I have made a new 'weighted average' function that tries to find and eliminate the fake (extreme) votes."
Not sure how the algorithm works (I'm assuming it removes extreme downvotes and upvotes), but if it was up to me, I'd remove all those votes from the calculation which are unusually "lonely" and strike out from the average as well. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Calculating charts only from public votes would show respect towards people who vote publicly. As far as anonymous votes are concerned, they can still be counted in the product detail page.
edit: people who don't care, can continue not caring, and those who do, can finally spend their time lobbying, accusing, arguing and disrespecting the shameful public downvoters. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: |
Again: more voters will make "fake"-votes insignificant to the end result. That is the -only- problem. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: |
-> solution. Require login. Let downloading cost pointa. Earn points by voting. :) |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
agree to jackasser... more voters... problem solved |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quote: Calculating charts only from public votes would show respect towards people who vote publicly. As far as anonymous votes are concerned, they can still be counted in the product detail page.
edit: people who don't care, can continue not caring, and those who do, can finally spend their time lobbying, accusing, arguing and disrespecting the shameful public downvoters.
Actually prods got public/ano ratings displayed, why not the same for ppl?
More voters needed yeah (not gonna happen).
Anyways there's few words about crowd sourced ratings in "How to predict unpredictable" by the guy who wrote "Are you smart enough to work for Google". Vaguelly remember ratings with average scores lie, you should look at those which are occuring most, because they tell how the most of the public is voting. If you see the example I gave above (which is why I acutally did this thread) a lone, one low vote is drastically changing the scoreboard position. However this one vote is only 5% of all votes.
Any bells ringing regarding proper display of how crowd is voting vs scoreboard mess caused by ONE voter? :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
More votes doesn't completely prevent destructive effect of manipulative anonymous voting. Effect is visible in highly competitive categories. Even single vote can change the position of entry in chart. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 716 |
Why is 6 downvoting? Only if you compare to all the 10s, but perhaps not compared to what that person voted for other entries.
Now, Joe/Wrath Designs already explained all this last year (or was it two years ago? probably 5 then :P).
My own opinion is that the 10s are actually the problem. The voting system degrades after a few years, and today the only sane vote you can give is a 10 for a good prod, 9 for an average, and 8 for some really ugly shit. Pehaps the one that voted 6 on Comaland actually took the time and reviewed all his/her votes and normalized them around 5, and the voting system became useful again.. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
When adjusting happens on single entry and kicks it out of first place in charts it can also be easily mistaken for downvoting. Adjusting can't happen selectively on just some entries.
And for votibg system becoming useful again... I think it needs some assistance from the developer of this site. He could make some kind of adjusting / decreease the value of points? / over the time... |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quote: Why is 6 downvoting? Only if you compare to all the 10s, but perhaps not compared to what that person voted for other entries.
Now, Joe/Wrath Designs already explained all this last year (or was it two years ago? probably 5 then :P).
My own opinion is that the 10s are actually the problem. The voting system degrades after a few years, and today the only sane vote you can give is a 10 for a good prod, 9 for an average, and 8 for some really ugly shit. Pehaps the one that voted 6 on Comaland actually took the time and reviewed all his/her votes and normalized them around 5, and the voting system became useful again..
There's something in what you say, perhaps voting system should get +5 points :)
Vote 6 is statistically best to ruin the rating, that's why it's easy to use it.
There's difference between down voting in purpose, and rating properly, though.
When you see most % of votes are around 7,6,5 and there are only like 5% of 10 or 9 then this looks like an attempt to up vote a shitty prod, simply, or someone might just have a mood to give it high, or just thinks differently.
Likewise 5% of 6 on something 95% of crowd voted 10,9,8 is simply either a deliberate try to control the scoreboard, or someone just has a different opinion.
THAT"S FINE FFS
Problem is when you have 5% of votes DRASTICALLY mangling on the scoreboard. (see my example earlier post 14). That's why the rating should ignore the lowest % of votes. Then the scoreboard will more accurately reflect the crowd rating. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 716 |
Ok.. now that both Uncensored and Comaland have left #1 in the top list, perhaps we can just bury this thread together with all the other anual rating system discussions and forget about it. I hate that i wasted 5 more minutes on it already. |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
yep... we better make a demo about it. oh wait... the Anonymous Downvote Cowards already did that ;-) whoever that is :D |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
See HCL? Hehe, someone wants to put out two best newest demos out of top list by MINORITY of low votes and it's so easy to do - not by definiton, but because ratings code is simply wrong :)
Perchaps charts I've suggested for ppl (past year activity) could be extended to prod charts (past 5years).
As I said, 50% shot is it looks like deliberate attempt to controll the scoreboard accross CSDb - with one or two votes in too many places. :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: Ok.. now that both Uncensored and Comaland have left #1 in the top list, perhaps we can just bury this thread together with all the other anual rating system discussions and forget about it. I hate that i wasted 5 more minutes on it already.
I wasted much more time getting my head around what I saw... disappointment. ;-) Anyway it's now "solved" some more people have shown that they disrespect the charts and downvoted their own productions.. hooray.. \o/ day is saved.. ;-| |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Don't call this charts, you don't have them yet :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
all this whining from people who cant do maths. LOL |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
gpz, as moderator, I should probably remove your pointless provocative comment, but I think you will appreciate when I just point out that fact to you. ;-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
provocative? just stating fact :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Anyone can state a fact... for example, fact is that no matter how many votes entry gets, you can hurt it's score just by 1-2 dowvnotes (in higly competitive charts where differences between entries are "hundredth" so your popular doctrine that with more votes comes more fairness isn't an universal solution. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
lol |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: Quoting Perff from 2002:
"I will not describe exactly how it is calculated, but I'll try to come with a brief explanation here.
The weighted average is a modified mathematical average which take into account the spread and number of votes.
This results in that the weighted average will always be smaller (or the exact same) as the mathematical average.
The higher the spread and/or the fewer votes, the lower the weighted average is compared to the mathematical average.
Noone said that this is the correct way to do it, but it's better than simply using the mathematical average."
Also Perff, a year later:
"As I posted in another tread I have made a new 'weighted average' function that tries to find and eliminate the fake (extreme) votes."
Not sure how the algorithm works (I'm assuming it removes extreme downvotes and upvotes), but if it was up to me, I'd remove all those votes from the calculation which are unusually "lonely" and strike out from the average as well.
When do we get to see the algorithm, so we can have a proper up and down-voting weekend? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: lol
lol my ass... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
only 39 posts and we are talking about your ass - well done! =) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
It wouldn't be possible without you. Thank you. :-p |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
you're welcome =D |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
ITT: people crying over imaginary internet points. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quote: ITT: people crying over imaginary internet points.
Indeed.
Competitions, challenges, rivalry, building prestige, demonstrating preeminence and power, votes and charts built this fucking scene and those roots are still deep in the ground. You can't except from people who literally grew up in this overly competitive ambient to suddenly hold their hands and sing the jolly, careless Knoeki-song just because you're not affected by the obviously flawed vote system. |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting CreaMDAnyone can state a fact... for example, fact is that no matter how many votes entry gets, you can hurt it's score just by 1-2 dowvnotes (in higly competitive charts where differences between entries are "hundredth" so your popular doctrine that with more votes comes more fairness isn't an universal solution.
Interesting :) I was about to prove you're wrong with screenshots but I could not take them at the time (I was on the road). Regardless. I've checked the board with the phone (sorry dunno how to take screens with shitty blackberry, never needed it). Anyways, today earlier when HCL complained both of Uncensored and Comaland were off the tops I checked that and by that time it already changed - Edge of Disgrace was first, Uncensored second, Coma Ligth 13 3rd and Comaland 4th. (unsure about 3/4rd place but no matter).
I had an idea to cheer up our good man HCL and to make BD demo to be on the top I've simply changed my vote 10 on EOD to 1 and viola! Magic! Uncensored first again.
EOD has 308 votes, and one vote from booker vote made it smack down from the first place to the second. YAY I'M a scoreboard God - I CAN MOVE IT :D And EOD has only one vote of 1 - MINE! Cool :D
Do your maths again sir, or maybe even beter, open your eye (one closed is still ok)
With warmest regards
Your friendly bitching booker [closely being watched over] back from the dead :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
solution: ban the idiots that vote 1s =) |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 833 |
Human beings are hilarious! |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting Groepazsolution: ban the idiots that vote 1s =)
hehe it's not such a bad idea after all :) ban the troll voters from voting, but really, just proper code needed ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
also ban everyone who complains about the votes :) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
glad no ban to those who just ask for proper code =) [yet] |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting HCLOk.. now that both Uncensored and Comaland have left #1 in the top list, perhaps we can just bury this thread together with all the other anual rating system discussions and forget about it. I hate that i wasted 5 more minutes on it already.
Left where?
This weeks Sunday's nightly ratings are sponsored by numbers 4...and 6 :)
 |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Okay okay, just kidding, that wasn't fair either. =)
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Booker, maybe it's news to you, but the votesystem's defects were obvious and known since CSDb is around. I remember threads from more than a decade ago, dealing with similar problems. Most of us who tried to change something in a positive way, gave up the fight a long time ago.
The sad fact is: most likely, no one will ever fix the votesystem.
So, it's you against the windmills. Just learn to deal with it gracefully. |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
Also it doesn't fucking matter anyway. People are going to vote in ways you don't agree with. Whether the system is balanced, public, anonymous, whatever.
The best solution is to stop crying over imaginary internet points... unless you're just making demos so other people can vote them into the top, in which case I hope you enjoy your life. (: |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
Quote:People are going to vote in ways you don't agree with. Whether the system is balanced, public, anonymous, whatever.
yup. asking for opinion and consensus at the same time is a stupid idea to begin with. |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 243 |
a fair voting system with entres that have less than 100s of votes? dream on =) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting JailbirdBooker, maybe it's news to you, but the votesystem's defects were obvious and known since CSDb is around. I remember threads from more than a decade ago, dealing with similar problems. Most of us who tried to change something in a positive way, gave up the fight a long time ago.
The sad fact is: most likely, no one will ever fix the votesystem.
So, it's you against the windmills. Just learn to deal with it gracefully.
It's not a news to me, I remeber this.
Quote:
booker
Registered: Jul 2003
I'm not fighting with anything :) Just been a bit provocative here and brought the charts idea there and that's it. I'm done really. Thanks for your support JB.
@Knoeki, I have no idea how to answer to you, because you either don't read with proper attention, or don't understand what you are reading. I'll silent it out :)
Cheers
b. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Vote 10 for sproutka! |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 716 |
Quote:
Anyways, today earlier when HCL complained both of Uncensored and Comaland were off the tops
In didn't complain, i was happy because the root cause of this discussion was gone.. But, no(!?). I am sure some of you (no names) can go on with this forever, i just think it is so boring.
The moment you start thinking of *how* your vote affects the result, you're already on the wrong path. Amen. |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Cool then, I was a little worried :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quoting HCLThe moment you start thinking of *how* your vote affects the result, you're already on the wrong path.
Exactly. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting HCLThe moment you start thinking of *how* your vote affects the result, you're already on the wrong path. How can people avoid that? You're asking the impossible. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
What HCL said and bring up/piggie/down from pouet here. Case closed, thank you ;) |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 243 |
Quote: Quoting HCLThe moment you start thinking of *how* your vote affects the result, you're already on the wrong path. How can people avoid that? You're asking the impossible.
at elections here in germany the feeling that my vote can affect anything is rather low to zero ;) get the masses voting on csdb, and "your" vote will suffer the same way =) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
You are talking about millions of votes per entry, Peacemaker. :) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting JammerWhat HCL said and bring up/piggie/down from pouet here. Case closed, thank you ;)
Indeed m8 case closed thank you >> http://charts.c64scene.pl/ |
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Brush
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 21 |
Just a short question - not full related to the topic (but a bit relevant anyway):
How about creating a public repository of CSDB source code somewhere on bitbucket or github? This way, the rest of us mere mortal sceners could either understand how the system (including voting) works and/or contribute fixes or enhancements. |
