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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
HDMI upscaling on a budget
I love my CRT to death, but sometimes a more compact option is needed. Does anyone know of an HDMI upscaler that doesn't cost $400, outputs 50 Hz without artifacts or dropping frames, and shows aspect correct 4:3 with black bars on a 16:9 display? The $30 converters on eBay are crap. Specifically, has anyone tried these KanexPro converters? http://www.kanexpro.com/converters/composite/ |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
I SO would love to get a proper info here myself, as my beamer just not does a good job at upscaling a pixel pixture to HDMI.
The best solution i knew in germany was those converter that f.e. Ligawo sold. There were said to be ok. Yet i don't know if they properly do 50Hz. And they seem not to be sold anymore. Ligawo answered my request with the Info, that the converter chips just can't properly handle the lowres c64 image.
Upon my asking on facebook all boiled down to the expensive Framemeister. As either options not provide a proper FullHD image or are not available properly.
Have not heard about those KanexPro devices, so looking forward there myself. |
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Clarence
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 119 |
I'd be also interested in this. Several years ago we tried at least 5-6 of the budget video/svideo to hdmi converters and all had some kind of frame tearing problem. Maybe the situation is better now.
What is also worth to consider, some of the converter boxes added considerable amount of lag (some added close to a second). For example to play games 'realtime' it is an important aspect as well. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Yeah, good point, latency also has to be taken into account. Some latency can be fine if your main purpose is watching demos and composing or pixeling, but for gaming you don't want more than a frame or two. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11111 |
you dont even want one frame, unless all you are playing is adventure games :) |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
I have my CRT for when it really counts, so I can live with < 50 ms. Less is better, and if the OSSC had S-video input I'd buy it in a heartbeat. |
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Tao
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 115 |
My ideal would be some way to feed things into an eDP; that way I finally could build myself SX-128 out of my 128D :) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
so the only solution would be rob a bank and get ze framemeister? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Framemeister is the thing that does it? 50HZ and all that? No flaws? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
yep |
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 421 |
I'd see if somebody who's into designing/manufacturing hardware could do a simpler solution. There's a lot of money in a cheap Framemeister clone.
The fact that there doesn't exist one yet, makes me think that it's actually not feasible... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11111 |
thing is that it wont get much "simpler". and if you cant just take an off the shelf IC (which those $30 solutions do that work like crap) it wont get cheaper either :) |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quote: Framemeister is the thing that does it? 50HZ and all that? No flaws?
It gives by far the best picture I've seen from a C64 on a modern display, with smooth 50hz motion.
It can be *slightly* buggy on PAL sources. Once it's set up, you're fine, but every now and again I've found changing some of the options on a PAL source can lock up the unit.
I got one because I have a number of old consoles/computers that I wanted to hook up to my TV and I think it's been a good purchase. In particular, it handles 240P RGB extremely well. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2839 |
One would think that affordable ADC+FPGA/CPLD circuits for this purpose might be around the corner... |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Oh it's quite doable, and indeed the components are out there. It's above the level of most hobbyist engineers though (myself included), and commercially it's unlikely to be profitable, so... here we are. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11111 |
krill: sure, and R&D usually comes for free :) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Quote: Oh it's quite doable, and indeed the components are out there. It's above the level of most hobbyist engineers though (myself included), and commercially it's unlikely to be profitable, so... here we are.
LFT will rescue us, no worries. Right Linus? :D |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
There's the OSSC which is an open source alternative (https://github.com/marqs85/ossc), but at the minute, it doesn't have s-video input. So, perhaps all we need is a good s-video to RGB transcoder? :)
Pre-assembled units are still fairly costly, though anyone with the skills could build their own for the price of the components. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Since the OSSC does everything right and is open source, it'd be the perfect project to build upon. Converting from S-video to RGB is unfortunately one of those things that seems like they should be simple, but turn out to be complex. The old analog chips that do it are hard to source and hard to use. This converter can be found for about $80, but I don't know if it's any good.
The OSSC has everything you need to do it though, and they have already solved most of the important problems like generating proper HDMI and getting the hardware built. Integrating something like the TVP5150AM1 seems plausible. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Bought a cheap Extron IN1508 on eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222736297025
Here's hoping it doesn't suck. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2839 |
Quoting Groepazkrill: sure, and R&D usually comes for free :) I was thinking of some hobbyist design, not a commercial device. As in, affordable components + open source. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11111 |
even then it doesnt come for free. time spent on it directly translates into money lost for most people. and most people wouldnt want to solder an FPGA on prototype boards either, so someone needs to be paid for that too. (the cost of the components is almost never the relevant factor for this kind of stuff, btw) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2839 |
Yeah, and DIL/DIP FPGA boards haven't been invented yet. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11111 |
yeah, put it on a breadboard with through hole components and voila there is your high quality HF device \o/ |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2839 |
Oh, you :) My point was you can get ready-made PCBs with FPGAs on them for cheap, and can solder your well-shielded HF cable to them alright (and don't forget to remove the little antenna on that hole) signal integrity should be good enough. After all, USB2/3 and whatnot pin headers exist.
But anyways, hope springs eternal and all that, re: original topic. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11111 |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygDLpQfsCag |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Quote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygDLpQfsCag
Whoa that looks perfect! Here's hoping it'll do PAL as well.
http://www.retrotink.com/#Products |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Quote: Whoa that looks perfect! Here's hoping it'll do PAL as well.
http://www.retrotink.com/#Products
Mike Chi replied: "The RetroTink 2X will be capable of doubling PAL sources to 576p50." 👍🏼 |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
Quote: Mike Chi replied: "The RetroTink 2X will be capable of doubling PAL sources to 576p50." 👍🏼
Oh nice to hear!
Did he tell something about when this device will be available and for what price?
Still it will be interesting how my Beamer or receiver will deal with a 576p signal as the smoothing of the S-Video sucks big time quite some times.. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
No, I didn't ask - it's a hobby project so I guess it'll be ready when it's ready. Check out his YouTube channel, he seems to post updates when there's progress.
Every projector I've checked has official support for 576p50 so I don't think compatibility will be an issue. |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
Quote: No, I didn't ask - it's a hobby project so I guess it'll be ready when it's ready. Check out his YouTube channel, he seems to post updates when there's progress.
Every projector I've checked has official support for 576p50 so I don't think compatibility will be an issue.
I know my beamer can handle it, it also displays my normal c64 svideo signal. Yet the image get some sort of awkwardly upscaled making the square pixels round'ish.
Need to check how my receiver with its component input deals with the image interim.. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Many upscalers do indeed suck, but with a scandoubled signal they should at least suck half as bad. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Ok I have another very ignorant question.
I have 1920x1200 samsung tv/monitor with video input. I connected my C64 using scart and what I see on screen is sort of textured and blurry. It is usable for e.g. composing and playing, but I can't imagine doing pixelling om that. It doesn't look like sharp pixels, nor PAL.
How the Framemeister handles this? And how does retrotink does it? I wish I could use any PC monitor and have either clean sharp screen (as from emulator) or something that is capable of look like PAL screen (or both - switchable).
I have never seen output from this kind of convertors. So that's why I ask. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Ok I checked the video (two guys talking about framemeister). It looks impressive. Hmmm. Now question is. Is Retrotink as good too? For ~1/3 of money?
I checked this video (c64 with retromeister). Ok now I get it I think. It's worth the mnoney it seems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNk4FQ7aWQ |
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Fix
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 54 |
Will be interesting if The RetroTink 2X is the shit... |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quote: Ok I checked the video (two guys talking about framemeister). It looks impressive. Hmmm. Now question is. Is Retrotink as good too? For ~1/3 of money?
I checked this video (c64 with retromeister). Ok now I get it I think. It's worth the mnoney it seems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNk4FQ7aWQ
Taper wrote an article in Attitude which might also be useful.
http://www.cactus.jawnet.pl/attitude/?action=readtext&issue=15&..
I will maybe try and take some photos that show how it looks. It isn't perfect, because the C64's output isn't perfect, but it looks much better than going directly into my TV. It handles 50hz motion very well too, although that's not really something I can demonstrate. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Why there is 2 times bigger price on amazon.de?
and which one should I buy?
https://solarisjapan.com/collections/micomsoft |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
Quote: Why there is 2 times bigger price on amazon.de?
and which one should I buy?
https://solarisjapan.com/collections/micomsoft
They now sell the Framemeister with EU Delivery/Option, get that one. Will be less hassle with customs. And better get a english decal for the remote if you're not that good with japanese.. :D |
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soci
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 473 |
Is Duty+VAT included? |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
Quote: Is Duty+VAT included?
Special offer for European customers: Receive your XRGB Framemeister directly from within the EU and avoid all import fees and customs troubles. We wholeheartedly recommend this option to our customers in the EU:
Guaranteed no arguing with customs inspections
Guaranteed no additional import fees
No shipping costs for express delivery
You save up to 4000 yen compared to the import from Japan
This offer is only valid for shipping addresses in the EU.
The unit includes an international power adapter (Japanese plug), an RGB cable adapter and a remote control.
stated here:
https://solarisjapan.com/products/eu-tax-free-xrgb-mini-frameme.. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
They have option there where you can choose price of the goods to avoid VAT. Also there is some price where it's a bit higher but still less than 600 EUR on german amazon.
Edit: Yeah as Dano said. I think it is the best option. Still awesome price. |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
Quote: They have option there where you can choose price of the goods to avoid VAT. Also there is some price where it's a bit higher but still less than 600 EUR on german amazon.
Edit: Yeah as Dano said. I think it is the best option. Still awesome price.
The price really is annoying, but still the device offers a brilliant and so far flawless image. Weasel got one connected to his beamer and it's always a pleasure to look at. Way better than anything i saw until now (and i wish they used that one at Revision, as the c64 just looks horrible there..).
Would be nice to see some examples from that retrotink if that's worth the wait after all. Still i think the upscaling from that output may still yield some artifacts on beamers and tvs.. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11111 |
are you saying an imagepro-hd is worse than this framemeister thing?
can i have some of the stuff you are smoking, please? =) |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
Quote: are you saying an imagepro-hd is worse than this framemeister thing?
can i have some of the stuff you are smoking, please? =)
excuse when i found the colors of reluge on the bigscreen more than dull and unpleasing.
so yes, framemeister may then be better.
or it's some other jingle-jangle happening there.
and yes, this was not just my humble opinion. period. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11111 |
you are comparing apple and oranges there really. i am 100% positive that an imagepro delivers a (far) better picture than this consumer stuff when its connected to the same display device. i am also 100% positive that framemeister would not be of much help with connecting a c64 to a 4k beamer like the one used at revision. and i am also 100% positive that if you are not pleased with the quality, and you know how to improve it, the revision team will be more than happy to let you help doing it. i am not quite 100% positive though that this is actually the case :) |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
I'd recommend Solaris Japan. I've bought from them a few times over the years. I bought my Framemeister using the EU option and all went smoothly. I presume the listings on Amazon are just someone trying to make money from people who don't know where to buy one. They occasionally go out of stock at Solaris.
I don't know anything about the imagepro-hd, but I'm guessing obsolete 8/16 bit computer graphics weren't really what it was designed for. Some very high end equipment can do a pretty awful job with these signals.
Take a look here:
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de
There are processors that were sold for several thousand euros when new, which do a fairly mediocre job on the 240p tests. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11111 |
Quote:I don't know anything about the imagepro-hd, but I'm guessing obsolete 8/16 bit computer graphics weren't really what it was designed for.
they are designed to convert anything to anything. they dont care how "obsolete" the signal is, and they do everything that framemeister thing can do - and then some.
however, what they dont have are the typical oversaturated colors which are characteristic for most consumer grade video equipment :) it might just be a matter of adjusting a few settings to get the same (probably better) image from an imagepro, if what you are after are those screaming colors.
the problem here really is that some things you might perceive as "better" is really just what you are used to from what you have seen for decades. eg i have heard quite often from various people that the picture of a sony pvm monitor looks "bad" to them - when in objective terms its really much better than what most other (consumer) monitors can deliver. (for example because the typical "scanlines" are much more visible on the pvm than they are on eg a 1701). |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
groepaz, srsly test a framemeister yourself before judging it. flaming around upon people you don't regard as a pro yourself does not help.
leaving out personal perception about saturation out of sight, framemeister DOES provider a superb image. guess it does not hurt too much that it's "just" 1080p, does it?
and i guess we agree upon that the output counts not the money and and name we put on the device, right? even if it might hurt your pro-elite-übergott-heart that some gnarly consumer-hardware can do the job.
guess your hell will freeze over when even this retrotink device will do the job. oh dears.. |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
Quote: you are comparing apple and oranges there really. i am 100% positive that an imagepro delivers a (far) better picture than this consumer stuff when its connected to the same display device. i am also 100% positive that framemeister would not be of much help with connecting a c64 to a 4k beamer like the one used at revision. and i am also 100% positive that if you are not pleased with the quality, and you know how to improve it, the revision team will be more than happy to let you help doing it. i am not quite 100% positive though that this is actually the case :)
oh and yes, i recommended framemeister to the revision staff already. it's not rocket science to plug that one between the c64 and the capture-card-recording-whatever thing. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11111 |
*sigh* recommending random hardware of which is unknown if it would work or not in the existing production chain is NOT helping anyone really. and rewiring the recording setup every time someone needs to record some c64 stuff isnt really an option either. and still, the imagepro DOES provide a very very nice picture. its sharp, it doesnt drop frames, and you can adjust the colors and every other parameter including those you never heard about all you want. i am still 100% positive your problem is all about personal preference and could be solved easily by twiddling some knobs. you can always become part of the compo team and then do just that :) (and you can bet money on that afterwards, some people will bitch at you how you fucked up the colors =P)
(other parties have been using framemeister, btw. cant say i noticed a significant difference in picture quality though)
edit: just to make that clear: no doubt framemeister is an excellent device and does the job. but so is the imagepro (its the defacto reference for all and every scanconverter - and for a good reason). |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quoting GroepazQuote:I don't know anything about the imagepro-hd, but I'm guessing obsolete 8/16 bit computer graphics weren't really what it was designed for.
they are designed to convert anything to anything. they dont care how "obsolete" the signal is, and they do everything that framemeister thing can do - and then some.
however, what they dont have are the typical oversaturated colors which are characteristic for most consumer grade video equipment :) it might just be a matter of adjusting a few settings to get the same (probably better) image from an imagepro, if what you are after are those screaming colors.
the problem here really is that some things you might perceive as "better" is really just what you are used to from what you have seen for decades. eg i have heard quite often from various people that the picture of a sony pvm monitor looks "bad" to them - when in objective terms its really much better than what most other (consumer) monitors can deliver. (for example because the typical "scanlines" are much more visible on the pvm than they are on eg a 1701).
I'm not referring to colours. This image from the site I linked above demonstrates my point about high end equipment...
The shot behind is a Faroudja processor displaying 240p, that is quoted as costing $9000USD when new. You may dispute the use of the word "better", but whilst I'm sure it handles video extremely well, I'm confident it's not what most people want to see from pixel graphics.
Happy to take your word on the imagepro-hd though. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
It might be a heated debate, but nevertheless oh Yeah I Like It...
Good reading. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11111 |
Quote:The shot behind is a Faroudja processor displaying 240p, that is quoted as costing $9000USD when new. You may dispute the use of the word "better", but whilst I'm sure it handles video extremely well, I'm confident it's not what most people want to see from pixel graphics.
i dont know that device, but this picture is clearly post-processed and somehow antialiased - the imagepro doesnt do that in the setup we have used at revision (actually i dont know if it even CAN do that).
and, the complaints i have heard in the couple of years (mostly when i was in the compo team myself) were almost always about colors. sometimes they are "dull", sometimes they are "too bright", sometimes they are $insertfavouritecomplaint. :) thats why i recommend those who complain to join the team, and do it the way they think it should be done. and face the consequences of course (there _will_ be complaints =)) |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
thanks Dano, Groepaz for confirming the quality
And thanks Deev, knowing a scener has purchased means more to me than google recommendations.
I've been holding off on buying a framemeister for over a year now.. having a very large retro/console collection it probably is worth it, but having B&O's and a small PVM I kept pushing the decision forward due to price.
That said, it's Christmas and towels and socks this year are just not making me happy so far ;) so pulling the trigger based on this thread, thanks all.
Few questions..
- Not only for C64's, but also for all the other machines (mostly generation 1 to 6 consoles) are there any options (cables, etc) from Solaris that I should consider a must buy, or at least a recommended purchase alongside so I can piggyback them saving extra shipping or third party?
- For recording, can I match the framemeister to an legato? (I recently got the version with component cables, but am assuming have the framemeister inbetween the source will improve recording? please correct me if wrong).
And hardware mods..
- Also assuming proper RGB mods where available are still going to give a better feed into the framemeister as apposed to composite right?
- And c64 specific lumafix, I'm guessing this one is no longer relevant when using the framemeister, correct?
thanks
Tim |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quoting TimAnd thanks Deev, knowing a scener has purchased means more to me than google recommendations.
No problem :) I was also heavily influenced by Taper's article, which I linked above!
Quoting Tim- Not only for C64's, but also for all the other machines (mostly generation 1 to 6 consoles) are there any options (cables, etc) from Solaris that I should consider a must buy, or at least a recommended purchase alongside so I can piggyback them saving extra shipping or third party?
I'm not sure if you're aware, but Japanese and European SCART wiring is different.
As a standard, the Framemeister comes with a Japanese-wired SCART input adapter, but they give you the option to replace it with a Euro one.
Which you need purely depends on your output cables, not the region of the consoles (the signal is the same, just the pins are different).
There isn't anything else I can think of, though bear in mind it's a Japanese unit, so you'll need a step down convertor or alternative transformer.
Quoting Tim- For recording, can I match the framemeister to an legato? (I recently got the version with component cables, but am assuming have the framemeister inbetween the source will improve recording? please correct me if wrong).
I don't own any recording devices, but it outputs HDMI or DVI at the usual resolutions/frame rates (1080p, 720p etc at 60hz or 50hz), so I'm assuming that if your Legato has either of those inputs, it should be fine. I'm pretty certain it will look better incorporating the Framemeister. There are lots of examples on youtube.
Quoting Tim
And hardware mods..
- Also assuming proper RGB mods where available are still going to give a better feed into the framemeister as apposed to composite right?
Yes, the difference between RGB and composite is huge! Consoles which output RGB look almost emulator-like through the Framemeister.
The Framemeister does a better job of composite than my LCD TV, but it still looks pretty poor. RGB is where it excels.
Quoting Tim
- And c64 specific lumafix, I'm guessing this one is no longer relevant when using the framemeister, correct?
If you mean to reduce the vertical bars, it might actually more relevant! The image is quite sharp with a Framemeister, so the vertical bars can be strong. I actually horizontally blur the image ever to slightly to reduce this, but they're still visible on certain colours (cyan is especially bad). The C64C I currently have is particular bad for vertical bars, on my older bread breadbin C64, they were less noticeable, but sadly it died. The newer model is the only one I've been able to test with the Framemeister. I do intend to try the lumafix eventually!
I also get a small amount of bleeding on certain colours. Not sure if this is the C64s output, or my cable. I don't see it on other hardware, so I don't think it's the Framemeister.
I want to emphasise that The Framemeister doesn't deliver a perfect image, especially for the C64, but it is by far the best image I've seen from a C64 on a modern display. In some ways a PVM is probably better, but it's nice to sit on the sofa and watch C64 demos on my 42" screen (and I know some people have far larger TVs!)
I do intend to try and take some photos at some stage to better demonstrate what I'm describing, I've just been a little busy with Christmas! :) |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
Awesome Deev, many thanks.. and Ill be sure to drop Taper a thank you on Antidote!
Yeah, I noticed they had two bundles (JP21 / EU Scart) on the site, but no option to get one bundle and order the other separately, so I have dropped them an email asking if their EU warehouse perhaps had both and if they would consider me ordering a separate adapter to piggyback on the same order.
If they cant Ill just go with the Japanese bundle and get the eu cable from www.retrogamingcables.co.uk might as well now that I think of it, since Im expecting the remote control will be Japanese and Ill need to pick up the English overlay from them anyhow and do some research on the other items they have.. take my money already! lol
Ps, also picking up the D-terminal to component adapter, seems like a must have too
Yah, those specs match the Elgato, perfect sounds like a winning combo.
At some point I have some recording I would like to do, but Ill wait not till the framemeister arrives, perhaps even do some comparisons myself.
Ah ok.. well then Ill still need to go through the devices for RGB mods then.. not in a hurry, have the components here already for some months for a few, but keep finding other project to keep me occupied.. sigh.. endless time (Y/N).. wheres a trainer when you need it ;)
Ok, so also Lumafix still on the menu then.. ordered those months ago but never arrived.. sigh.. but yes as you said, I find myself wanting to watch demos on the big screen and use youtube more often.. sometimes useful, but Id rather use my own machine.. somehow the sid never sounds quite right on youtube despite matching specs.
Thanks again Deev, big help! |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
FYI incase anyone else was interested too;
-----------------------
Hi Tim,
Thank you for contacting us!
Yes, you can add the second RGB Adapter Cable to the order to get both.
Just use this coupon so you won't be charged shipping for the extra cable:
FREESHIPPINGRGB
Regards,
Jacob |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
so.. orders finally done.
With lack from further replies from Solaris, I just went for the JP21 bundle shipped from Europe.
From retrogamingcables.co.uk I picked up the rest.
- XRGB Mini Framemeister English Remote Translation Overlay lexan - white
- CSYNC EuroSCART to Framemeister XRGB-mini adapter
- Commodore C64 S VIDEO SVHS cable cord lead
..as well as a Sony PVM csync cable (bout time I replaced a dodgy cable I have) and a separate sync board to chop up an existing cable for another device to round up a nice order over the 75gbp ex vat mark for free shipping)
thanks again guys for advice and help! |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
..short update, 10 days later and Solaris still has not shipped.. sigh.. |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
sorry to hijack this one again, but today i took a minute and did a compare of the revision version vs lemming caption vs zoolon capture:
https://ibb.co/kf5ayb
so far for colors. be sure i never ever even had my 1084 turned down this far.. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Time to revive this thread, as I received a RetroTink 2x from the first batch the other day. We're using it together with the OSSC at Datastorm 2018, so if you're curious check it out in the compo booth and the screens at the party (or the live stream, it will be a direct feed from HDMI this year). Quick summary:
• Composite/S-video/component to HDMI
* Pass through (240/288p), line double (480/576p), or filtered (emulator style, bleh)
* PAL & NTSC
* Virtually lag free at ~300µs latency (~5 scanlines)
* Can be daisy chained in pass through mode into an OSSC via a VGA adapter, to add scanlines and other tweaks
* Low pass filter on the input gives the image a fairly smooth look, but individual hires pixels are visible.
If the device could be flashed to default to s-video on power up and the LPF brought down a notch, I'd declare it near perfect. Even so, I'd say this is clearly the best option available for upscaling the C64 right now.
It'll be sold for £79 at videogameperfection.com and you can read the specs at http://www.retrotink.com/
VGP's review: https://www.videogameperfection.com/2018/07/23/retrotink-the-ve..
PS: The Amigas and other RGB devices at the party are upscaled with the OSSC. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
I'll buy one for sure if it passes the Datastorm test! :)
thanks MagerValp!!! |
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oziphantom
Registered: Oct 2014
Posts: 478 |
So it can handle a PAL C64, good to know, thanks. |
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Jope
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 25 |
MagerValp, what is the horizontal output resolution of the RetroTink 2x?
My recipe is a Sony YR-1000 + OSSC, because that way I can get 1:1 c64 pixel vs HDMI pixel mapping. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
I’m not sure, check with Mike Chi in the vgp forum. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Were you happy with the RetroTink 2x at Datastorm? |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Yes, though I have to play a bit more with it before my final verdict. I could only stay until 9pm on Friday and missed most of the party, but it performed well until then. |
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Mr.Ammo
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 228 |
The stream looked like cam-quality. Did you use this new device as a source for the stream like you announced a few post earlier? |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
SceneSat couldn't get their capture card to work, so they set up a cam instead. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4595 |
I took MagerValp's place and ran all C64 stuff on Datastorm and I am very happy with the quality of the picture. No apparent jerky pic, lag or other disturbing stuff. |
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soci
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 473 |
Ok, so does this mean scrollers are smooth and stable and it doesn't try to de-interlace? |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Yep. The RetroTink 2x doesn't do any frame rate conversion since it's scanline based, and it outputs a progressive 480p image which your TV won't try to deinterlace. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Jope: Would you mind sharing your OSSC settings for a pixel perfect image? |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
Reviving this thread ;-)
So... in order to try to get things right for Transmission64, I went above the budget and bought an XRGBmini, also known as Framemeister on eBay. It seems to be mostly working fine, and I got the colours pretty much adjusted BUT when the brightness on the screen changes fast, it seems that the framemeister adjusts the overall brightness. I can't seem to find the option that causes this. Any idea? Or can anyone change their settings that do not do this?
Here's an example recording with timestamp from a test stream:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/940339220?t=00h10m23s
Setup is C64g (with Lumafix) -> SVHS -> Framemeister -> Elgate HD60s -> OBS
I connected it directly to a TV via HDMI, too and saw the same brightness fluctuation. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
…and now that this thread is back, has anyone tried any of the newer RetroTink offerings? It seems the original 2x is hitting eol. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
The current 2X line all use the same chip, the only differences are which connectors are used and some minor firmware variations. For the C64 the Mini is hard to beat. |
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AlienTech
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2019
Posts: 3 |
How are you able to watch the screen without throwing up? I tried moving from a TV set to a monitor to play my dreamcast and after 10 mins got a huge headache and almost threw up.. The picture also did not look good since people used tricks to blend colors that bleed on a TV set unlike on a monitor.. upscaling this only makes it look far worse.. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
Cheers MagerValp. |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
Quote: …and now that this thread is back, has anyone tried any of the newer RetroTink offerings? It seems the original 2x is hitting eol.
I still only have the older one.
I will try running this to an Excom DSC 301 HD scaler shortly, to see what that looks like. |
