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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Commodore 1 : lame retro-computer or cool new geek machine ?
Hi,
I think it would be quite interesting (and maybe even amusing) to see how the scene (or scene individuals) look at the new Commodore 1.
Do you see it as a poor attempt to build a new c64? Or do you see it as a great Geek machine which among other features just got some sort of c64 compatibility?
I think those people who do not like the c1 are mainly those who don't like the SCPU either: c64 purists, but maybe I am wrong?
Personally I think the Commodore 1 could be some cool "homecomputer" with great possibilities (one of those is of course the limited c64-compatibility) and be a nice machine to do music, demos, games etc. on it.
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Warbaby
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 60 |
It's think it's going to offer some great new possibilities. I'll probably buy one. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
I'd like to separate the effort, which is really, really cool -- how many could even dream of designing a computer practically single-handled,
and it's usefulness, which is to me, questionable at the moment. We'll see, how strong the C=1 community will be, and how many programs will be produced.
Of course, C=1 has very little or nothing to do with the C64 scene :) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 335 |
The C=1 does have *something* to do with the C64 scene...Or do you see Spectrum sceners waiting in line to get one?
Usefulness? People...do you use a c64 because it is "useful"?
I should hope you use your c64 because you have *fun* doing so. I know I'll have a lot of fun with the C=1.
And yes, I'm certainly going to buy a C=1. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Ah, I kind of tacked fun into the usefulness factor.. I mean, the C64 has lots of cool games & demos produced, and programming for it is a challenge.
But the C=1 to me is more like a "generic" computer, with CPU power to spare, windowed/multitasking OS coming, that's what I mean... |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
c=1 and you have seen them all.. Damn i'm good. :)
Purist |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Ouch :P hehe |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 335 |
Cadaver: 20mhz = "power to spare"? Oh come on...
The C64 has windowed/"multitasking" OS'es too, no one forces you to use them just as I'm sure no one would force you to use that kind of thing on the C=1 once it arrives.
You want a programming challenge? Make your own C=1 OS if you have so much against icons and windows.
However, I guess you are happy to stick with the C64 only. That's fine by me, but please don't try to label the C=1 as just another PC, it isn't. |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Mermaid: Do you receive sale percentages on the Commodore-1?
;) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 335 |
rOuGh: Thank you so much for your extremely thoughtful and informative contribution to this debate. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: rOuGh: Thank you so much for your extremely thoughtful and informative contribution to this debate.
Cheer up ppl. ;-) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Mermaid, I'd label the Amstrad, Spectrum or Amiga "generic" computers too, though with less power. I mean: powerful CPU, and enough power to realistically do framebuffer effects, unlike C64.
(totally personal view) I'd rather to be challenged by CPU power, than complexity of programs, 'cos if they're too complex, they don't get finished :) That's what I especially like in C64 programming: the machine sets the limits for me, no worrying of feature screep :)
As for the 'C=1 is not C64 scene' I was just taking the most anally-retentive view of the C64 scene possible. :)
Now I shut up for this subject :)
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
Seems my post went missing but C=1 really is a generic computer (by design now) where using a different CPU cart it can have a different processor (ie, Z80) and get a new compact flash file or something and the memory is configged to the new computer you want to emulate. I just want to give people the freedom to choose as I have the freedom to buy my SCPU. I personally don't see the link to the C64 scene. I consider it a great feat that 2 people can do something like this. Horray for the hobbyist. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
when i first heard about c=1 people said that it was gonna be 100% compatible with the c64, so then i thought it had a purpose by being able to replace the dying machines. now i read here 'some sort of c64 compatibility' and if thats correct i dont see any reason why i ever would need a c=1. pc+vice offers me some sort of c64 compability too |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
well, hopefully we will soon see how compatible it is.
But i guess a 100% remake of the c64 would be hard with all those chips you can't get any longer; and i guess you would not even get every documentations the developers of the c64 had. |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
Cadaver: you didn't get the sence of it ;( Maybe you should read most of the already posted info about the c=1 again!
Programming this machine will be same fun and challenge as with the C=64. We've got some records to set up!
Mermaid: good job!
For me: it's just the same as a C=64, but about 10years younger in functionality and power. The fact that only Jeri does all of it's design makes me accept the fact that it 'seems' like a 10year-old computer.
And actually, I've decided long time ago to create the Monster-Tracker (yeah, 16 SID-channels and 8 for Samplestuff, great!).
For all who didn't correctly understand the Generic-stuff:
This machine will be limited thru it's FPGAs. If you put in another CPU it won't be compatible anymore, same is with another FPGA-config. If you do these changes to the board, then it's the 'ONE'. If you leave it as it's delivered, then it's the 'Commodore ONE'. So we have a whole bunch of extra-usability coming thru the 'ONE'-board, where the 'CommodoreONE' is installed on. Do you get my point?
COOL NEW GEEKMACHINE! Actually cooler than anything before! |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Argh.. can't resist :)
St0fF: I'm sure it will be cool to program, that's what I'm hoping, that it'll have many enthusiastic programmers working on it. I know it'll have the features of the C64 expanded, in addition to the framebuffer stuff etc.
But I'm just speaking of my personal viewpoint; to understand my personal apprehension to anything more powerful than C64 (in the sense of game- or demoprogramming), one must know how I bounced through different platforms (C64, Amiga, PC/Dos, PC/Windows) only to arrive back at C64 to actually get something useful done :)
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Dosoo
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 32 |
Few years ago they talked about WebIt -computer which was supposed to be the comeback of C64. Somehow I have a feeling that this machine is lost and we will see it no more.
What I like to say that there is a possibility that huge Commodore user group may not have enough money and enthusiasm for the new computer. Even CMD's effort showed that most people are quite comfort with the C64 as it is. I myself won't buy Commodore one as I have upgraded my C128 so much. Yet I'm not putting any barriers to development, even this kind of retro-related development. |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Quote: rOuGh: Thank you so much for your extremely thoughtful and informative contribution to this debate.
It's my pleasure.
Seriously, thoughtful and informative posts are pretty rare here, yours was surely one, wasn't it? |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Fuck... why does C64 discussions allways end up in some 'mature' semi-polite/semi-provocative way of saying "i'm innocent n' you're all wrong" (no matter who is right)
(Now, if u gotta battle, u gotta do it rite and just totally fuck the motherfuckers tryin to mess with ya, threathen with voilence, declare wars, etc... that's the real C64 spirit! (oops... guess i'm gonna get some reactions 4 diz one))
Sorry... this was off topic, btw..
About C=1:
Commodore One is cool - but i don't think i'm gonna get one myself. I'm a standart-C64 freak only. Ofcoz it's kool to expand the C64, but still for me the mission with making something on the C64, is to push as much as you can outta da old computer from 1982 (that everybody (also every non-scener) knows from their past), and make them go "wow". The mission is to make stuff on the 1MHz computer, dat'z cooler than the newest PC demos! (maybe that goal can't be reached, but it's the goal anyway!) |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
basically most demos are cooler as boring 3d-scenes for 5-10 minutes on the pc 8) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
The WebIt fell on it's arse because it was a bad idea - it was a low spec 486 with CCS64 1.09 loading off Flash to make it a "C64" so the two potential audiences weren't there; us lot because we didn't see the point and retro gamers because they could get a half decent PC for the same price!
The One is a different concept and personally i find it very interesting, but i want to know how compatible it'll be before any cash is laid out... |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
not much to battle about. roughs suspicions where pretty much proven when St0fF posted 'Mermaid: good job!' ;) |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1056 |
I'm getting a C=1 because together with a J-PAC interface I can make my own arcade games for my cabinets. And that's hella cool.
And hollow, Jeri has never talked about being 100% C64 compatible, if anyone else has claimed 100% it's their words. This is a computer implemented in programmable logic that loads the hardware config from ROM when you power it up. It can be pretty much anything you want it to, and the default is a C64 compatible mode. It's a machine for hackers, coders, and enthusiasts, not C64 purists. They will never accept anything but a genuine breadbox and 1541, and they are clearly not the target for this machine.
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
i've never been expecting 100% compatible, but one of my main reasons for buying a One is to reduce the desk space needed for the machines knocking around - if the percentage is going to be *significantly* lower than the 98-99% that the PC-based emulators offer it starts to look less attractive to me at least... |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
If is theoretically possible to make the CPU part compatible as some people have made their own 6510 100% compatibler FPGA (or something) cores and possible to clock them at their own speeds. It don't help the rest though. Still, let people judge the C=1 from official announcements for what it is. Still would be nice to have an all in 1 solution for a C64 replacement, even easy way to select SID models etc. |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 250 |
how will the SID be emulated? i reckon they wont run the real thing in it (as its hardfetched these days). and the possibilities to connect it with a real c64 and e.g. a 1541?
if it is 99% ok i reckon it would be cewl to store all those tons of disks ive got on it. if it is easy to connect it with the breadbin, that is.
will it be sold plug-and-play or just as a motherboard?
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1056 |
Quote: i've never been expecting 100% compatible, but one of my main reasons for buying a One is to reduce the desk space needed for the machines knocking around - if the percentage is going to be *significantly* lower than the 98-99% that the PC-based emulators offer it starts to look less attractive to me at least...
VICE and CCS64 are way more compatible than 98-99% these days. There are only a handful of demos that don't work correctly.
The C=1 is *not* going to replace your C64 setup. It will not handle stuff like FLI or VSP or any other advanced vic tricks. It'll run at 20 MHz, so things like that will just crash & burn. It'll be compatible enough to play old games, but it's not designed to be a C64 replacement.
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
i know VICE and CCS are very close to 100%, i'm just willing to allow a looser margin for a machine like the One before i start to question what it will and won't be for me personally. At the moment, my main reason for what is a substantial outlay of cash is that it's C64 compatible and the more that is eroded the harder i'll find it to justify the outlay to She Who Must Be Obeyed and myself come to think of it.
It's going to be too expensive for me to justify with the "it's a fun thing to play with" reasoning, there's loads of stuff i have filed under that category but i can't afford them either... |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 250 |
Quote: VICE and CCS64 are way more compatible than 98-99% these days. There are only a handful of demos that don't work correctly.
The C=1 is *not* going to replace your C64 setup. It will not handle stuff like FLI or VSP or any other advanced vic tricks. It'll run at 20 MHz, so things like that will just crash & burn. It'll be compatible enough to play old games, but it's not designed to be a C64 replacement.
VICE more than 99% compatible? dunno about that.. when i run stuff using VICE on my PIII 733 mHz its odd. the sound is often pretty much crap and effects and graphics can act peculiar.
if the C=1 is going to be less compatible i'm not going to buy it for that cause anyway. which doesn't mean it couldn't be a cewl thing.
how come it's not in the producers' interest to have it more or less fully compatible? and don't come saying it's impossible.. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
I hope a flamewar doesn't burst as a result of this post :), but I believe the C=1 originating from NTSC-land is a significant factor, as the use of more extreme VIC tricks has been more prominent in PAL scene. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1056 |
Because you can't be compatible and at the same time get new features like VGA graphics, IDE interface, 20 MHz CPU, 32 MB ram, 16-channel SID with 16-bit samples, and a few other things. Remember that this project started as a 24-bit graphics card for the C64. The first prototype was an expansion card in the sid socket of a breadbox.
So yes, you can clone the C64 in programmable logic with 100% compatibility -- but that's not what the C=1 is. It's a new computer that happens to default to a C64 compatibility mode.
As for PAL vs NTSC, Jeri's not a scener or demo coder, so she obviously has a different perspective on things.
Again, if you want a C64, use your breadbox. If you want a new computer to play with, get a C=1.
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 250 |
someone ought to mail jeri some (ntsc-)fixed c64 demos with neat effects and killing graphics.
so how will i store my collection? does anyone know where to fetch a hd or how to build one? |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Okay, so i know *i* couldn't do it, but how easy would it be to build a C64 clone with a high compatibility using programmable logic and, just as importantly, how cheap...? |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1056 |
Quote: someone ought to mail jeri some (ntsc-)fixed c64 demos with neat effects and killing graphics.
so how will i store my collection? does anyone know where to fetch a hd or how to build one?
CMD HD, IDE64, or 64HDD are all easily available.
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LordNikon
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 42 |
Hmm, i dont think that i will buy a c1... i love my full expandet c64 more than this thing. But remember. If everybody want to demos, music and grafix for the new commodore 1 with its new features... hmmm whats with the original c64 then? Maybe there will be no demos are something for our good old machine anymore if everybody wants to use the new features. (this new grafix modies and so on... ) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Well, that didn't happen when the Amiga appeared, either :)
Anyway, still about the compatibility; thinking about it a bit more, and stepping outside the scene, with its AGSP scrolling Vallejo FLI-pics :)))), the team is indeed implementing everything officially in the C64 spec, so in that way it's 100% compatibility; too bad the "side-effects" are so nice & useful.. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Staying outside the scene, what happens if badlines aren't the same as they are on the C64 - suddenly all those games with vertical scrolling and a status bar that the programmers spent ages getting a rock solid split for stop working properly...? =-) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Maybe it'll look like Frodo / PC64 / C64S (basically works, but may not be super-neat looking)?
At least I don't remember the score-panel actually bouncing, or something more ugly, in those emus (except for 1942 showing a black playfield on C64S :))
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Ah, one more point: developing C64 programs on C=1 will then be quite a bit risky, just like developing them on C64S :) |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1056 |
Quote: Maybe it'll look like Frodo / PC64 / C64S (basically works, but may not be super-neat looking)?
At least I don't remember the score-panel actually bouncing, or something more ugly, in those emus (except for 1942 showing a black playfield on C64S :))
Yes, I'd expect compatibility to be about equal to C64S or PC64. She has simple things like correct raster timing. It's the undocumented stuff that'll be missing -- though she said she'd implemented many of the things the same way as the VIC-II (thanks to the VIC-article), so there's a chance of some effects still working.
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QuasaR
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 145 |
Just to get things right... Aren't we talking about a platform which is "programable"? So, if there's any bugs (like incorrect VIC-timing, etc...) we just have to flash another memory-card with a fixed version and voilà, the glitches will go away... Or did I get something wrong? |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1056 |
Quote: Just to get things right... Aren't we talking about a platform which is "programable"? So, if there's any bugs (like incorrect VIC-timing, etc...) we just have to flash another memory-card with a fixed version and voilà, the glitches will go away... Or did I get something wrong?
Yes, you're right -- someone "just" has to do it :) You'll also need to supply a 6502 processor card for illegals to work.
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taper
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 119 |
If anyone could make a 100% clone of the c64, I would be dead happy. Looking att all the things Jeri has invented for the Commodore One, it wouldn't be impossible at all. But it takes skills. Our c64's are aging, and now and then some decides to give in for good. New replacement machines would make me sleep a hell of a lot easier at night. I would rather have such a clone than a Commodore One.
Having said that, I'm still very impressed about Jeri's work on the C1, and I have full respect for the fact that she wants to make a new computer. It´s her project, and why should she do anything she doesn't want to do?
I will most probably buy a C1, but since I even think emulators are too uncompatible I wont use it for normal c64 activities, watching demos and so on. I will use it for the same thing as Magervalp, putting it in my arcadecabinette with a Jpac to be able to play some of the classic games (using an arcademonitor will provide a better more suitable picture than a vga monitor aswell). I don't expect it to run the more advanced games, though.
Besides, I don't have the right to bitch about incompability if I don't buy one, right? ;)
When the Commodore One is finished, is there any way we could talk Jeri into making a pure c64-clone aswell? Would be worth a try... ;)
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LordNikon
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 42 |
The biggest problems are new graphic modies and this scpu prozessor. But maybe the is a possibility to build an grafix card for the c64 (+scpu) to use this new graphic modies... |
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Optic
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 28 |
Ok, it's my time to contribute to this thread..
Bring on the Torquemada!
The upper sentence was meant as a comment to someone's post about purists vs. hackers/enthusiasts/whatever..
I am definately going to get myself one as soon as my financial problems are solved..
Honestly, I can't even begin to consider myself as a C=64 purist. My first computer was a VIC-20, after that i had a few C64's and C64C's with different diskdrives.. after those i went with Amiga.. Along came PC with emulators.. Good to test and preview stuff found in internjet..
I have always considered myself more of a hardware freak than coder/GFX/music dude.. So if someone makes interesting stuff in the spirit of old-things-commodore, i want to see how they work and see what kind of stuff can be done with it..
I'll buy it even out of curiosity.. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
I agree with Taper.
Things won't last forever, I am especially having problems lately with 1541 drives and 5.25" floppys disks.
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1056 |
Quote: The biggest problems are new graphic modies and this scpu prozessor. But maybe the is a possibility to build an grafix card for the c64 (+scpu) to use this new graphic modies...
No, because the C64 doesn't have the required bandwidth to work with hires modes. It takes a whole second just to clear an 800x600x16-bit screen over the C64's 1 MB/s bus, if you could somehow write one byte per cycle. There's also no way of addressing the video ram, unless you have a SuperCPU -- and that costs more than the C=1 will.
There's a reason why Jeri ditched the graphics card project and made a whole new computer instead...
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1056 |
Quote: If anyone could make a 100% clone of the c64, I would be dead happy. Looking att all the things Jeri has invented for the Commodore One, it wouldn't be impossible at all. But it takes skills. Our c64's are aging, and now and then some decides to give in for good. New replacement machines would make me sleep a hell of a lot easier at night. I would rather have such a clone than a Commodore One.
Having said that, I'm still very impressed about Jeri's work on the C1, and I have full respect for the fact that she wants to make a new computer. It´s her project, and why should she do anything she doesn't want to do?
I will most probably buy a C1, but since I even think emulators are too uncompatible I wont use it for normal c64 activities, watching demos and so on. I will use it for the same thing as Magervalp, putting it in my arcadecabinette with a Jpac to be able to play some of the classic games (using an arcademonitor will provide a better more suitable picture than a vga monitor aswell). I don't expect it to run the more advanced games, though.
Besides, I don't have the right to bitch about incompability if I don't buy one, right? ;)
When the Commodore One is finished, is there any way we could talk Jeri into making a pure c64-clone aswell? Would be worth a try... ;)
The C=1 has all the hardware you need for a 100% clone of the C64, it's "just" a matter of rewriting vhdl code. The supplied code for the default C64 compatible mode should be a good start -- you'll have to rip out the new incompatible features and reclaim that space for more C64 compatibility.
It really shouldn't be more complex than writing a cycle exact emulator like the VICE or CCS64, and someone managed to do that...
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Ah, I kind of tacked fun into the usefulness factor.. I mean, the C64 has lots of cool games & demos produced, and programming for it is a challenge.
But the C=1 to me is more like a "generic" computer, with CPU power to spare, windowed/multitasking OS coming, that's what I mean...
I agree to that one in 100%!
I am sure, she is right!
All the best!
Bye!
Joerg |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: The C=1 does have *something* to do with the C64 scene...Or do you see Spectrum sceners waiting in line to get one?
Usefulness? People...do you use a c64 because it is "useful"?
I should hope you use your c64 because you have *fun* doing so. I know I'll have a lot of fun with the C=1.
And yes, I'm certainly going to buy a C=1.
Well, I thought a lot about that, well, and yes, I don't use it for anything else than fun, but I want to get some new happenings for that!
If I only would have used and would still use it only for fun, then I would be statisfied with some old games and that's all for fun.
I like the fact, that the C64 has a friendly scene and I like to be a part of it. Also, because I like it and it makes fun! :)
Maybe a bit confusing, eh?! Now, the question is, if C=1 would need an own "scene" or if it gets involved with the existing C64 scene...
But I am not yet sure if I would by such a motherboard...
All the best!
Bye!
Joerg |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: I agree with Taper.
Things won't last forever, I am especially having problems lately with 1541 drives and 5.25" floppys disks.
Yes, I agree with both of you!
Give me a 100% clone of my existing one, and I would buy some! I am sure! Also drives! Yes, I would buy one!
I had 1 year problems with my 1541-II's but since 2 years, my problems are fixed. I have got several. And even since there are different builts and manufactures, there is a difference of quality of mechanics in some 1541-II's.
Not every mechanic/model is 100% the same.
And there are games not working to load on every 1541-II!...
All the best!
Bye!
Joerg
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