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Marq
Registered: Sep 2011
Posts: 47 |
Help needed for a scene-related article - looking for oldtimers!
Hi,
I'm writing an article about the origins of the demo/pirate/cracking scene for a WiderScreen thematic issue (http://widerscreen.fi/call-for-papers/) and would like to hear some first-hand accounts as to how things were back in the day. I have Finland pretty well covered already, but other countries not, so if you were active already in the 1980s and could spare some minutes for answering a few questions, I'd love to hear from you. And as usual, I'm in a big hurry with this :) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 617 |
I seriously doubt the story of the scene will ever be told, because trust level 0. |
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Marq
Registered: Sep 2011
Posts: 47 |
Thanks for the help :) Well, seriously, good stories are interesting too. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
Just a critique:
So far, most documentaries and articles about scene have been bit disappointing. Often the story begins very late from early 90's PC scene or speaks about sceners that ended up starting game industry. But for many the hobby started in the 80's, and the story is really a personal story about growing up - even if none of the results of the hobbies or games ever got published, entered a competition or were seen by anyone and even if these people did not later work on IT or games industry. Also, some documentarists just interview their immediate contacts and do not care to dig deeper. There are approx 7000 groups listed here in CSDB only just c-64 groups. Pouet and other resources have more to research.
I hope that this article by Marq is not just one that lists a number of "scenes" with just a short overview and anachronistically observes something that goes on today as a result of what happened in the 80's. That would be wrong and bad research.
Grendel once pasted an interview video in IRC where he and couple of other "oldtimers" were interviewed. What they tell on the video is closest to my truth so far.
Looking forward to reading the results. |
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Marq
Registered: Sep 2011
Posts: 47 |
I've been trying to be a bit more punctual or "academic" about it than what the typical overviews are :) Actually, in this article my aim is to dig into the divergence of the crackers and the demoscene - and even question if it ever really happened. Having started only in 1991 myself I have no first-hand memories of the early days, which is why I'm asking here.
Here's the demo publication list I've been maintaining for almost ten years with Antti "NF" Silvast: http://www.kameli.net/demoresearch2/?page_id=4 |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:I seriously doubt the story of the scene will ever be told, because trust level 0.
indeed. the more someone knows, the more bullshit he will tell - because the truth isnt for the public. and thats good in my book :) |
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Marq
Registered: Sep 2011
Posts: 47 |
I'm not after any raunchy details, just trying to preserve a tiny bit of the heritage of one group of people. But if it's SOOO very secret or shameful to discuss it, then I guess not :) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 617 |
Basically it was a unique time, and "you had to be there". As groepaz said, people will just spout bullshit... Since the "scene" means very different things for different people also.
There was a saying from the 70's, it was "form your own community" , and that's what the scene was. It was an underground (and should remain so) community of people with entirely different ideals, which are viewed as "dangerous and subversive" by the general population and powers that be.
These ideals haven't changed, and will continue. They are misunderstood, misjudged and misinterpreted by outsiders. They will continue to be so, so it's not in anyone's best interest to share the views and actions of the "scene" with the general populous as it may (and probably will) reflect negatively on those making such statements and others involved.
Even this short summary is probably too much... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:I'm not after any raunchy details, just trying to preserve a tiny bit of the heritage of one group of people. But if it's SOOO very secret or shameful to discuss it, then I guess not :)
you cant tell the history of the scene without going into those details. if you dont know the details, bullshit will be the result. you can verify that by getting the available books that try to do it =P |
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Marq
Registered: Sep 2011
Posts: 47 |
Quote: Quote:I'm not after any raunchy details, just trying to preserve a tiny bit of the heritage of one group of people. But if it's SOOO very secret or shameful to discuss it, then I guess not :)
you cant tell the history of the scene without going into those details. if you dont know the details, bullshit will be the result. you can verify that by getting the available books that try to do it =P
Well, this is an interesting topic: how do you people view those attempts? As far as I know there have been only a few books or other publications that have tried to discuss the early days in any detail:
- Tasajärvi's book, "Demoscene: The Art of Real-Time", which didn't get far
- Freax, which is quite elaborate (but completely mixes reality with scene rumors)
- My own attempt (Computer Demos - What Makes Them Tick?) whose shortcomings I'm painfully aware of by now :)
- Patryk Wasiak's "Illegal Guys", which, as far as I've seen is among the best accounts
Plus plenty of small histories and FAQs written by scene members themselves, ofcoz. |
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
I don't buy in to all of that "scene mythos" bullshit. There are no secret handshakes and no one wears silly hats.
I was active in the NTSC scene from 1984-1989, mostly as a waresrunner and phreaker. Ask away. |
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Marq
Registered: Sep 2011
Posts: 47 |
Oh, I forgot "Commodork" by Rob O'Hara, even though that's much less about demos. |
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titan_ae
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 46 |
Commodork online :
http://tinyurl.com/opu4zsj
seems to be interesting. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
just avoid anything this guy wrote /o\ |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
And yes, I agree with Jon. There are no secrets about any 80s "underground scene". It's just some jerks trying to pretend to themselves that their mainstream hobby is something special/underground/outstandingly cool while it is not. Everybody who's trying to make a big story of it, is still stuck in his adolescence which is a common problem with people who are capable of coding on a computer but have no clue of the slightest bit of anything else. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
being stuck in his adolescence is a common problem with pretty much everyone still using a c64 in 2013 =)
and seriously, that computer stuff wasnt mainstream in the 80s by far. quite the contrary actually, normal ppl were skateboarding and riding their BMX bike instead =P |
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
I just finished reading Commodork. If you're interested in anything NTSC scene related, skip it. From what I read, he had little to no exposure to the scene outside of Oklahoma and a majority of it isn't about the Commodore 64 at all (he spends a ton of time discussing his Apple II and PC activities, probably moreso than his C64 activities). He might be worth an interview, though.
And yeah, I think my adolescence holds me here, too.
Jon |
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 500 |
I guess the only two things that makes all those scenes a bit of undergrounnd is, that as for the illegal times noone wanted to get busted due to silly mistakes of some morons. In the nowadays demoscene noone wants to be confronted with clueless people as it is mostly impossible to explain them your fascination. So the underground is not any shelter but occurs due to the huge distance to the things that happen in normal lifes.
Also, usually people want to play without being disturbed by noobs, no matter in what scene you play. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Scene is maybe not so interesting as skateboarding, but after 10-20 years and some scandals, etc. maybe someone will look at it from the right hollywood angle and make a totally innacuarate but entertaining and emotional story of it. ;-) |
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Marq
Registered: Sep 2011
Posts: 47 |
After a heavy crunch the thematic scene issue is finally out:
http://www.widerscreen.fi/
My article on the roots of the (demo)scene directly here:
http://widerscreen.fi/numerot/2014-1-2/crackers-became-us-demos..
Thanks once more to everyone who helped! |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
the demo visualizations including time dimension are impressive. |
