| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
World Record Database
Hi!
Is there anybody who knows if there is some kind of world record database? If there is none then are there people interested in creating one in a wiki? I am thinking about creating a paragraph of the effect description of "every" demo ever released (which have world records or new effects of course), and to group the effects into categories. For example "sprite multiplexers" would be a category, listing record numbers/years going up to Crest's 120/170 sprite records (each one a link to the respective demo).
Anybody interested?
Thanks,
Noise/EHC |
|
| |
Gordian
Registered: May 2022
Posts: 36 |
Hello!
https://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recollection/?load=world_of_d..
https://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:demo_world_records_and_..
Propably not very often updated both. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting NoiseEHCAnybody interested? This kind of stuff gets silly rather quickly.
Take sprite records, for example.
There's one record for N sprites simultaneously on a video frame.
Then there's another record, but with more (N+M) but sprite-crunched sprites.
Then another with even more (N+M+L) sprite-crunched sprites at 9 sprites per rasterline, but of course every other rasterline is blank.
Now... which one of those is Best (TM)? They're all legit records, but, strictly speaking, each in their own category.
You can find many examples like this with pretty much all of the staple effects, where the sheer amount of that one countable thing used to determine records, and the theoretical limit, is depending on other factors.
E.g., bobs (size, X and/or Y degrees of freedom), Kefren bars (width), starfields/3D plots (perspective or not, numbers of degrees of freedom), etc. - and all of those with or without open sideborders and different amount of colours. |
| |
macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 252 |
What's most important is the dynamic in constantly trying to achieve the world's first, like e.g. H.T.T.M.F.C.
Boar's Head Tavern | byob.hopto.org:64128 |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting KrillNow... which one of those is Best (TM)? They're all legit records, but, strictly speaking, each in their own category.
You do not have to decide which one is best. You just have to list all of them on a wiki page.
For me it would be interesting to know whether something has been done or not, before making another world record. I just cannot remember all the effects from all a demos. |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting GordianHello!
https://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recollection/?load=world_of_d..
https://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:demo_world_records_and_..
Probably not very often updated both.
Thanks, exactly what I was looking for. Unfortunately these are very sparse and out of date... :) |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting NoiseEHCYou do not have to decide which one is best. You just have to list all of them on a wiki page. My point was that "all of them" would be quite a long list, with very similar things and rather few contestants in each category.
That, or you'd lump together separate categories and arbitrarily pick a winner.
Quoting NoiseEHCFor me it would be interesting to know whether something has been done or not, before making another world record. I just cannot remember all the effects from all a demos. You could also just ask on this forum for a list of similar things to what you have in mind, then decide if it's worth to try surpassing them. =) |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting KrillMy point was that "all of them" would be quite a long list, with very similar things and rather few contestants in each category.
That, or you'd lump together separate categories and arbitrarily pick a winner.
I understand you. But I need exactly that long list. Still no point to pick winners. Btw it would not be that long. There are not too many serious coder groups, and there are not that many demos either. I would guess the grand total would be <1000 entries for <200 demos.
Quoting Krill
You could also just ask on this forum for a list of similar things to what you have in mind, then decide if it's worth to try surpassing them. =)
Yeah, that is exactly what I want to avoid... ;) |
| |
Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 422 |
What I would like to see/create would be more like a lookup DB for demo effects.
When you type "sprite plexor" you would get all CSDb demos with that plus info on quantities, screenshots etc.
A bit similar to Plus4World where every demo has a list of fx incl. graphics modes etc.
https://plus4world.powweb.com/software/Rocket_Science
E.g. if you look for "plasma":
https://plus4world.powweb.com/effects/Plasma
Give it 1-2 years and AI would do most of that work =) |
| |
Scrap
Registered: Jan 2021
Posts: 14 |
I am with Digger. Records or not, would be interesting to have a searchable database of who did what and when... We are getting old and sometimes it is hard to remember: "hey, where did I see that effect???" Also, would be good, before boasting, to check if you are really the first with an effect... ;-) But this database would be a whole lot of work with all those demos out there... |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting DiggerWhat I would like to see/create would be more like a lookup DB for demo effects.
Exactly. However I would prefer a wiki format, as searching with google is much better usually...
Btw that is a nice site for +4. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting NoiseEHCQuoting Krill
You could also just ask on this forum for a list of similar things to what you have in mind, then decide if it's worth to try surpassing them. =)
Yeah, that is exactly what I want to avoid... ;) But why. Afraid that someone would pick up your idea and beat you before you even started?
Quoting NoiseEHCQuoting DiggerWhat I would like to see/create would be more like a lookup DB for demo effects. Exactly. However I would prefer a wiki format, as searching with google is much better usually...
Btw that is a nice site for +4. This works well only for a specific and rather outdated style of demo.
Also note how the effects in Rocket Science are somewhat messily lumped into rather broad drawers, and how only the free form notes give some detail. (And the "parameters" column is almost useless.)
Demos have long evolved past simple effect shows and record contests, with the better of them featuring elaborate hybrids and combinations of the basic "effects" of old. |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting KrillBut why. Afraid that someone would pick up your idea and beat you before you even started?
Because I would like that way better.
Quoting KrillDemos have long evolved past simple effect shows and record contests, with the better of them featuring elaborate hybrids and combinations of the basic "effects" of old.
Demos evolved in a way that now compos can be won by things which were called "filler" parts in the past. There are so many Powerpoint Presentations today that just having a list of real world records would be awesome... |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting NoiseEHCBecause I would like that way better. "Okay."
Quoting NoiseEHCDemos evolved in a way that now compos can be won by things which were called "filler" parts in the past. Now you have piqued my interest. Care to elaborate? =) |
| |
Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028 |
Quote: Quoting NoiseEHCBecause I would like that way better. "Okay."
Quoting NoiseEHCDemos evolved in a way that now compos can be won by things which were called "filler" parts in the past. Now you have piqued my interest. Care to elaborate? =)
thats a view in the oldschool scene, I heard from hungarians the term "powerpoint" demos :) |
| |
Mr SQL
Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 116 |
This would be refreshing to see, maybe there could be a forum topic dedicated to it here, there are a lot of interesting techniques and new discoveries still to be made from pushing the old hardware.
I think the comment above related to many demos having similar filler techniques once a particular method is created like clones of one another. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting Oswaldthats a view in the oldschool scene, I heard from hungarians the term "powerpoint" demos :) Well i was hoping for some specific examples and perhaps some dissection to show why they suck. :) |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting Oswaldthats a view in the oldschool scene, I heard from hungarians the term "powerpoint" demos :)
Ebben semmi meglepő sincs, mert én találtam fel ezt a kifejezést... :) |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting KrillWell i was hoping for some specific examples and perhaps some dissection to show why they suck. :)
I think "suck" is a little bit too strong word here.
But essentially it is about that "demo" is an art form where code+graphics+music is presented in a perfect composition. And code was supposed to push the boundaries of what is possible in Impossible Land. Now that last thing - pushing boundaries - faded away in the last decades.
Now I personally do not have any problem with people who cannot create something new and just rehash the same old effects over and over again. I also have no problem PowerPoint Presentations winning demo compos, as people who vote have no idea what they are seeing, so it is somewhat expected. I also do not go to demo parties and so I am not forced to watch 4 disk sides of animations either... :) What I have a problem with is that this is presented as the "Right Thing (tm)". It is not.
For example in my latest megademo I spent a lot of time with the turn disk part, which is a rotating floppy drive animation. It took ages to make it, because it was 5 colors so d800 had to be animated as well, and in order to fit all phases into memory the bitmaps had to be mirrored while the animation was running. And there was a sprite multiplexer above the graphics, which kinda sucks to write. So I do understand that even making animations is hard, but on the other hand I would never make 10 such parts filling 4 disk sides and release it as a demo. Never. Ever. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting NoiseEHCBut essentially it is about that "demo" is an art form where code+graphics+music is presented in a perfect composition. And code was supposed to push the boundaries of what is possible in Impossible Land. Now that last thing - pushing boundaries - faded away in the last decades. I posit that it didn't fade away, it's just not as glaringly obvious any more as it used to be.
And the advances are getting smaller and smaller the closer we asymptotically approach some hard theoretical maximum.
No idea which demos you've watched recently, but i did see some envelopes pushed at X23 and other recent parties. =)
Quoting NoiseEHCNow I personally do not have any problem with people who cannot create something new and just rehash the same old effects over and over again. Inventing new types of effect is the pinnacle of demo coding, and happens so rarely that any coder achieving this has always been an outlier rather than the norm.
And breaking some "world record" (previously held by another implementation of the same concept) is by definition the exact opposite of inventing a new effect.
Quoting NoiseEHCI also have no problem PowerPoint Presentations winning demo compos, as people who vote have no idea what they are seeing, so it is somewhat expected. Or they just have different opinions and taste than you do.
But, care to name just one "PowerPoint demo" which then won against some "proper" code-porn demo?
Quoting NoiseEHCI also do not go to demo parties and so I am not forced to watch 4 disk sides of animations either... :) What I have a problem with is that this is presented as the "Right Thing (tm)". It is not. Neither is it presented as (the one and only) "Right Thing", nor is your hyperbole anywhere close to The Truth (except the 4 disk-sides part).
Quoting NoiseEHCSo I do understand that even making animations is hard, but on the other hand I would never make 10 such parts filling 4 disk sides and release it as a demo. Whatever floats your boat.
But animations in themselves are specific kinds of effect in their own right, and also lend themselves to comparison and record contests, if you're so inclined.
You can push boundaries in bitrate, update frame rate, resolution and other metrics. |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting KrillAnd the advances are getting smaller and smaller the closer we asymptotically approach some hard theoretical maximum.
You are sooooooo wrong about that... ;)
Just for the record: there is still some $d011 stuff have not been done.
Quoting Krill
And breaking some "world record" (previously held by another implementation of the same concept) is by definition the exact opposite of inventing a new effect.
Probably I could have been more clear: by "World Record" I mean not only something which has a numerical value which is increasing in every iteration, but all "World First" effect, which have not been done before. I thought that it was quite obvious. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting NoiseEHCQuoting KrillAnd the advances are getting smaller and smaller the closer we asymptotically approach some hard theoretical maximum. You are sooooooo wrong about that... ;)
Just for the record: there is still some $d011 stuff have not been done. How does that contradict my assertion?
Quoting NoiseEHCProbably I could have been more clear: by "World Record" I mean not only something which has a numerical value which is increasing in every iteration, but all "World First" effect, which have not been done before. I thought that it was quite obvious. I must have missed the "or new effects of course" bit in the OP.
That would boil down to a database of general demo effects and their underlying technical details.
Who made them first isn't so relevant (except for the respective creators' egos) as the information that it has already been done at all.
Of course, such a database will never be complete, thus may always yield false negatives.
So in any case, whether or not your grand idea has been done before, why not just enjoy typing it in for an actual .PRG, then see how people react?
Just don't get carried away, claiming unproven facts ("Worldfirst!") in the scrolltext or so. =) |
| |
Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028 |
there is no wrong or right way of doing a demo, there are only opinions. but I must agree the creativity is often lacking, the same effects are repeated ad nauseum. even in tier A demos. |
| |
Frostbyte
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 174 |
I've been often pondering about such effects database. It'd be great for random "Wow, such many dots, but is this the all-time record or has anyone displayed even more dots at some point" wonderers, as well as people who enjoy (and have the skills for) breaking such records. :)
However due to the many factors (e.g. other effects on screen at the same time) that may affect the interpretation of what can be considered the best, imho a wiki would be one of the least useful places for it. To me such database would be all about attribution, and powerful search, filtering and ordering utilising it.
For example: If you want to buy a t-shirt from an online store, you don't just go to the store and search for t-shirt, and buy the only hit (or let alone google for "ACME Online Store t-shirt"). Instead, you may e.g. select a main category (men's clothing) and then filter down the t-shirts subcategory by selecting certain attributes or attribute ranges, e.g. size: L -> fit: regular or loose -> material: cotton -> colour: blue, and then sort the results by e.g. their rating, price etc. Or you may search for t-shirt and drill down from there.
As far as I can see, such demo effect database would only be useful if it would have enough metadata (attribution, properties, parameters, whatchamacallit) against the records to narrow down exactly what you're looking for.
As an example, "most sprites on screen at once" record(s) could be accompanied by several attributes:
- Number of sprites (integer)
- Crunching (boolean)
- Stretching (boolean)
- Top/bottom borders (boolean)
- Side borders (boolean)
- Framerate (float)
- Released (date)
etc etc.
Then people could search for (or navigate to using filters) exactly what they want, for example
- Most sprites
- Most crunched or stretched sprites
- Most sprites in all borders, sorted by no of sprites and framerate
Of course the possible combinations of attributes is nearly endless, but at least the attributes would be there and it would be up to you to determine if they're relevant for your upcoming record breaking case or not. You probably get my drift. :)
In order to actually implement this, I'm sure there are plenty of open source search engines that could build their index based on dynamic, typed attribution, as well as provide filtering and sorting dynamically, and maybe something suitable for the frontend too for both users and the ones who contribute. Not saying this wouldn't be a pretty large task though. And we haven't even talked about CSDB integration yet, as of course we'd want to do that. ;D |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting FrostbyteOf course the possible combinations of attributes is nearly endless, but at least the attributes would be there and it would be up to you to determine if they're relevant for your upcoming record breaking case or not.
I think you are overengineering it. In this I agree with Krill that there are too much variety to have meaningful categories. So we have to go with broad categories.
What you seem to overestimate is the number of entries. If we ignore filler parts, then my guess is that there are <1000 effects in <200 demos (considering only modern demos and not every raster+logo combo). So if you have 100 entries in a broad category, ordered by year then you can just use your brain to filter the rest.
It can be done with GitHub Pages and Jekyll blog -> HTML conversion. Because what is needed is an (blog) entry for all "serious" demos (with pictures and link to csdb), and tags/categories, which the blog engine already supports. Then you can filter to tag/category, which are the effects. So this can be done without any software development or anything. I will set up a repository and fill up the Graffity and Crest groups. Then anybody can contribute, hopefully every proud coder will write about their brilliant Word Record... :) |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting KrillHow does that contradict my assertion?
It does not. These are just opinions, there is no One Real Truth (tm) which can decide whether one opinion is right and the other is wrong.
Quoting KrillI must have missed the "or new effects of course" bit in the OP.
You have not missed anything, it was a bad word usage from my side. We used to call everything a World Record 3 decades ago, I did not know that there is an accepted word usage now which is different.
Quoting KrillSo in any case, whether or not your grand idea has been done before, why not just enjoy typing it in for an actual .PRG, then see how people react?
That would just destroy the best thing in demo making: surprise. The ???HOW??? factor. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting NoiseEHCQuoting KrillHow does that contradict my assertion? It does not. These are just opinions, there is no One Real Truth (tm) which can decide whether one opinion is right and the other is wrong. On that we agree. But what was i "sooooooo wrong about" then? :)
Quoting NoiseEHCQuoting KrillI must have missed the "or new effects of course" bit in the OP. You have not missed anything, it was a bad word usage from my side. We used to call everything a World Record 3 decades ago, I did not know that there is an accepted word usage now which is different. No idea whether scene-wide accepted standard or whatever, but to me "world record" and "world first" were always different things.
You can be the first to surpass someone else's record-holding effect, in which case both terms conflate,
but when coming up with an entirely new thing, you're first all right - but only technically hold the record, as the one and only contestant thus far. =)
Quoting NoiseEHCQuoting KrillSo in any case, whether or not your grand idea has been done before, why not just enjoy typing it in for an actual .PRG, then see how people react? That would just destroy the best thing in demo making: surprise. The ???HOW??? factor. Not sure i understand. Destroy the surprise on whose side? The demo maker's? The audience's? And why would it?
If you drop some novel effect or technique just like that, why would there be no surprise or "htf does this work" with the audience?
And if in another case that effect turns out to be not so novel after all, perfectly surprising for the creator, no? :D |
| |
Mr SQL
Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 116 |
Quote: Quoting KrillAnd the advances are getting smaller and smaller the closer we asymptotically approach some hard theoretical maximum.
You are sooooooo wrong about that... ;)
Just for the record: there is still some $d011 stuff have not been done.
Quoting Krill
And breaking some "world record" (previously held by another implementation of the same concept) is by definition the exact opposite of inventing a new effect.
Probably I could have been more clear: by "World Record" I mean not only something which has a numerical value which is increasing in every iteration, but all "World First" effect, which have not been done before. I thought that it was quite obvious.
I agree there are still plenty of discoveries waiting to be made, $d011 and beyond. Some intentional and some accidental by those willing to explore the old technology with a fresh perspective pushing the boundary of innovation and imagination.
Looking forward to seeing your idea developed. csdb seems like a good place to discuss regardless of the competition venue or itinerary you select. |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting KrillBut what was i "sooooooo wrong about" then? :)
You are wrong on that we are nearing some limit. The demo JustinBlue was released this year, and it still had 3 (or 4 depending on who you ask) completely new effects from 30 years ago. And I have a ton of new ideas. Maybe coders just became lazy, as good design seems good enough?
Quoting KrillNot sure i understand. Destroy the surprise on whose side? The demo maker's? The audience's? And why would it?
The audience's. And by "audience" I mean other coders who read these forums.
The coder's surprise about recreating a record will be hopefully fixed by the World Record Database... :) |
| |
Frostbyte
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 174 |
Quote: Quoting FrostbyteOf course the possible combinations of attributes is nearly endless, but at least the attributes would be there and it would be up to you to determine if they're relevant for your upcoming record breaking case or not.
I think you are overengineering it. In this I agree with Krill that there are too much variety to have meaningful categories. So we have to go with broad categories.
What you seem to overestimate is the number of entries. If we ignore filler parts, then my guess is that there are <1000 effects in <200 demos (considering only modern demos and not every raster+logo combo). So if you have 100 entries in a broad category, ordered by year then you can just use your brain to filter the rest.
It can be done with GitHub Pages and Jekyll blog -> HTML conversion. Because what is needed is an (blog) entry for all "serious" demos (with pictures and link to csdb), and tags/categories, which the blog engine already supports. Then you can filter to tag/category, which are the effects. So this can be done without any software development or anything. I will set up a repository and fill up the Graffity and Crest groups. Then anybody can contribute, hopefully every proud coder will write about their brilliant Word Record... :)
I do agree that such attribution would need some effort to implement (and take longer to enter the data, and require more discipline to maintain it), but at least some would be needed to make the top lists somewhat meaningful. A 1002 dot plotter isn't a world record if it is updated every 2nd frame and another 1001 dot plotter is updated every frame. :)
What I do disagree on is that we have to go with broad categories. You only need to do that if you don't have enough variables to categorise your entities on. E.g. a "fastest car" category would be only half the truth, as a fastest rally car and a fastest street car are two completely different things, both fastest in their own subset of cars.
Anyway, I don't have time to develop such database, and even if I would the scene would need to be fully behind it and collaboratively fill the data in and maintain it, so take everything what I just said as just a fellow scener's brainstorming session (or brainfarts session if you wish) rather than me trying to be the infamous Ideas Man who throws ideas at people and expects them to do the actual work. :) |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting NoiseEHCYou are wrong on that we are nearing some limit. Disagree.
I didn't say that there aren't any new discoveries to be made, but that they are finite, thus ever fewer and farther between as we go along.
It's just a fact after dabbling for more than 40 years and counting on the same machine.
Quoting NoiseEHCThe demo JustinBlue was released this year, and it still had 3 (or 4 depending on who you ask) completely new effects from 30 years ago. And I have a ton of new ideas. So? Fine! :)
Quoting NoiseEHCMaybe coders just became lazy, as good design seems good enough? Matter of taste.
Personally, i enjoy complex "math-based" routines more than early-90s-styled raster-only effects, while the underlying raster techniques of the latter are perfectly suited as building blocks to achieve this or that visual thing in the former.
(Not saying that there can't be an overlap between the two! Or that there are just the two, for that matter.)
Now, if you invent a new low-level rendering or sample replay technique, hats off to you, good sir!
But don't berate others for using it to create different styles (with entirely different audiovisual impact), refining it but without coming up with new basic techniques on their own. =)
It's a bit like fundamental research vs. applied engineering, or the now-forgotten difference between Technologie und Technik (sorry, that doesn't work so well in English).
Quoting NoiseEHCQuoting KrillNot sure i understand. Destroy the surprise on whose side? The demo maker's? The audience's? And why would it? The audience's. And by "audience" I mean other coders who read these forums. Still not sure i get it. We're talking about just coding whatever you have in mind and releasing it, without asking "Is this new" beforehand, yeah? Then no beans are spilled. |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
OK, here is the beta version: https://noiseehc.github.io/c64wrd/
Unfortunately this static website generator called Jekyll is kinda lame, and the programming language of it called Liquid is an abomination. So two things remain:
1. Fix that the left/right arrows of parts move to the next post, and not only inside the demo.
2. Somehow create a preview to the Pull Requests on github, but I just became very-very tired of this.
Creating a demo entry takes a long time, so I will be interested how many people will take the time to actually do that.
Pull Requests for new entries, bug fixes and css are welcome.
ps: And yeah, categorizing effects is very-very hard, as was predicted by multiple people... |
| |
Mr SQL
Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 116 |
Quoting NoiseEHCOK, here is the beta version: https://noiseehc.github.io/c64wrd/
Unfortunately this static website generator called Jekyll is kinda lame, and the programming language of it called Liquid is an abomination. So two things remain:
1. Fix that the left/right arrows of parts move to the next post, and not only inside the demo.
2. Somehow create a preview to the Pull Requests on github, but I just became very-very tired of this.
Creating a demo entry takes a long time, so I will be interested how many people will take the time to actually do that.
Pull Requests for new entries, bug fixes and css are welcome.
ps: And yeah, categorizing effects is very-very hard, as was predicted by multiple people...
This looks cool, read the contribution guide and like the guidelines.
I tried to find the prg or d64 with the demo but only saw md files where I expected to find the demo. |
| |
Martin Piper
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 645 |
Is this only limited to effects in demos? What if the effect is first used in a game? |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting Mr SQLI tried to find the prg or d64 with the demo but only saw md files where I expected to find the demo.
You have to click the part itself (for technical reasons) and on the bottom of the page there is a download link. I will probably change this to be more usable then, just it was very awkward to work with this statis site generator and gave up... :) |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quote: Is this only limited to effects in demos? What if the effect is first used in a game?
Only demo effects. But if a demo effect was first used in a game then I would like to know about for sure! :) |
| |
Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
As with Krill, I want to know the names of some of these PowerPoint demos :-) … you can’t just drop that bombshell and then not name them ;) … the groups behind those demos will already know what they have, they’re not going to be offended by you pigeon holing their demo.
As for a database of demos and their records/effects, I honestly can’t see it happening. The amount of work to do that would be a massive amount - and just so that a few of us can quickly go onto the site to find out whether we have a “first” or a “record”? I’d rather see the tagging system on CSDb that people keep asking for - but that ain’t happening either I’m told. |
| |
Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Also… I can’t believe that I’m agreeing with Krill so much today… but… he’s right, again, about that there are of course going to be less and less “firsts” and inventions. That’s just how things work. Most things. Go invent some “new” cocktail, or a new pasta dish.. that doesn’t taste like absolute shit of course. It’s not easy. In the 80s, you would have new C64 effects, and new hardware tricks, in every part of a Crest demo. New graphic modes, new crazy DYCPs, etc etc..
Now? Trying to think of something new is hard. Bloody, damned hard.
My last “creation” was that “finite bobs” part in No Bounds. Not even 1% original. But still worth doing I think - the nearest I’d seen to that was in Hoaxers’ “fREUd”. A REU demo (where, of course, the effect was easy - no need for all the complex memory copying and compression because they simply had a shit ton of memory to use). But i can’t call it a first. A damned hard thing to code, 100%, but it’s the merging of 20 different things that people have invented before me into one effect.
In the 80s, for the time it took me to make that, I could’ve made 15-20 new effects. |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quoting RaistlinMy last “creation” was that “finite bobs” part in No Bounds. Not even 1% original. But still worth doing I think - the nearest I’d seen to that was in Hoaxers’ “fREUd”. A REU demo (where, of course, the effect was easy - no need for all the complex memory copying and compression because they simply had a shit ton of memory to use). But i can’t call it a first. A damned hard thing to code, 100%, but it’s the merging of 20 different things that people have invented before me into one effect.
If "it’s the merging of 20 different things that people have invented before" then that is a new effect. I would be the happiest coder if I could see demos made only parts like that.
The site was reworked, as I found out that on github you can have your own build system running, and that way I can use the already existing jekyll-archives plugin. So now there are /category, /effect, /year and /year/month pages which work as filters. You do not have to create /group, /demo and /effect .md files anymore, so it is easier to create entries.
The Date of an entry now is a link which goes to CSDb where you can download it.
I will create a "how to create a pull request using only github web", as it seems that not everyone can use github, which I did not expect to be honest.
Updated the contribution guide to be more specific:
"How to name effects and what is and is not in the effect category is highly subjective, discuss it in the CSDb forum before starting a flamewar. Note that while we try not to judge demo parts, it is not possible to avoid that: it happens when you decide that an effect is so commonplace that it is now a “filler” part, while some time ago it was considered a notable effect. Another judgment happens because the same effect can be used for differently looking things (for example the colorcycling with animated bitmaps is used in like hundreds of different parts, and some of them look different), and it is quite subjective whether it is considered the same effect or a different one. Unfortunately we have to draw the line somewhere not to flood this database with only that one effect, but on the other hand it could be also argued that almost all VIC effects are just $d011 changing code, and so that they are all the same." |
| |
Mr SQL
Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 116 |
Quoting NoiseEHC
The Date of an entry now is a link which goes to CSDb where you can download it.
On the code tab I see the date of an entry as 2 days ago, but it is not a hyperlink.
Which tab or page has the date of the entry with the link to thel prg or D64? |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quote: Quoting NoiseEHC
The Date of an entry now is a link which goes to CSDb where you can download it.
On the code tab I see the date of an entry as 2 days ago, but it is not a hyperlink.
Which tab or page has the date of the entry with the link to thel prg or D64?
For example on this page: https://noiseehc.github.io/c64wrd/effect/chessboard/
Maybe you have to Ctrl+F5. But if it is not obvious then I will change it again (and link the Year/Month with the date).
BTW I found this today:
Hohlhippe
They made in 1993 the Hues:
Hues
LOL :) |
| |
Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: For example on this page: https://noiseehc.github.io/c64wrd/effect/chessboard/
Maybe you have to Ctrl+F5. But if it is not obvious then I will change it again (and link the Year/Month with the date).
BTW I found this today:
Hohlhippe
They made in 1993 the Hues:
Hues
LOL :)
That’s also the sort of thing where it’s hard to say “X did it first”… unless it’s a named method, like a well known, named type of colour blending, how can we ever say who did it first? |
| |
NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Quote: That’s also the sort of thing where it’s hard to say “X did it first”… unless it’s a named method, like a well known, named type of colour blending, how can we ever say who did it first?
Yeah, agree.
I really like the Hues demo, it was beautiful and perfectly executed. That is why it was so surprising that the effect itself has been done 30 years ago. I think I have seen Hohlhippe (or maybe not), but even if I saw it back then, I did not remember this part at all. If only there would be a list of effects done before... :)
ps: BTW since yesterday I now have TWO never been done $d011 effects. Ok, I am not sure about the "never been done" part... |
| |
Mr SQL
Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 116 |
Quoting NoiseEHCFor example on this page: https://noiseehc.github.io/c64wrd/effect/chessboard/
Maybe you have to Ctrl+F5. But if it is not obvious then I will change it again (and link the Year/Month with the date).
BTW I found this today:
Hohlhippe
They made in 1993 the Hues:
Hues
LOL :)
Thank you I found it, very cool!
I was just checking out the Chessboarding demo, the link is here:
https://noiseehc.github.io/c64wrd/graffity/justinblue/cheesboar..
I never noticed it because I never scrolled down, I thought that was a popup decision page where I could go to the discussion forum or to view it on github. |
