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Nightlord
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
UFLI?
Hi everyone,
I tried to google around in order to learn how ufli works but could not find anything. I know how fli, afli, shfli, shifli and finally xfli works.
can someone please explain how ufli works and what are its limitations. i tried to look at the displayer code of that veronica picture. i see sprites involved. but i do not understand the code... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028 |
you can mess up the VIC's sprite gfx counters with the spritecrunch fx. so it is possible to have a 168 line high sprite, with different gfx in each line of it (if you change also d018 each line), altho the memory layout and the code would be a hell on earth. Maybe this fx would make possible to have a 168 line high ufli, but with every line fli. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1993 |
As I mentioned before, sprite crunching repeates the sprite three times, not four. It really simple to see. What happens is that a byte is skipped and a sprite will not stop render until byte 3 on a line is #63. Since it skips one byte, the last byte will be #64, and after yet another 21 lines it'll be #62, and not until the third run it'll be #63 which will terminate the sprite. So, one simple $d017 sprite crunch will generate a sprite that is 63 gfx lines high, but since it also requires them to be y-stretched the complete sprite will be 126 raster lines high. But as WVL mentioned you can easily multiplex them in the beginning and add an additional 42 lines. So all in all you will have 168 lines.
(I did get that right didn't I?) =D |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quote: The problem is not to do that code, it's to code the editor for it and then find someone stopid enough to use it ;). I've had the idea for a while, but i probably wouln't do it.
I'd be interested to hear the opinions of other graphicians on this, but my feelings are the best way to get people to use it is to build an editor for the PC.
Whilst I have done some things in UFLI which may get released at some stage (if I finish them :) ), there's 2 reasons I've so far been put off fully adopting it:
1. Pixelling with a keyboard for hour after hour, in a mode that is heavily technical as it is, just isn't much fun to me. The scene is no longer made up of school kids who have nothing to do but sit behind a computer day after day.
2. Most people don't just pixel Boris Vallejo rip offs anymore, where you know exactly where you're going with a picture from the start. I like to play around with my compositions and experiment with ideas. It's disheartening to have to spend 3 hours pixelling something in an awkward editor, only to find it doesn't really work.
Maybe everyone else will disagree, I dunno, just an idea! :)
I would definately like to use some of these hires modes, if only they weren't so frustrating to work with. It's quite possible that I'm just lazy though :) |
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NoiseEHC
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 51 |
Using NINJA's code will not allow interlace not to mention will limit you to 168 pixels... Creating the 200 pixel high effect in interlace is WAY HARDER than creating an editor (modifying my PC editor would take ~5 hours...). Note that a C64 editor usually means that you think that graphicians should suck big :) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
@Deev: you could start with ditching your TV..saves plenty of time. ;)
Seriously,I know UFLI is slow to work with.
And you are right that´s it important to know where you´re going. (look at Veronica - I lost it,bigtime!)
UFLI is not a free-way to create what you have in mind,the restrictions are too many for that.
Think hard about what you want to create and mind the ´X-limits´.
Experimenting with colors in UFLI is something better done previously.
Best is to start with a picture in your mind,it will take long enough to do that. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 717 |
@Deev: There will never be any true-color mode, so bitching with pixels is THE way to do it. If you want a free-hand painting prog on the PC, why not load a proper palette into your favourite PhotoChop and go on? Converting it to whatever mode you want later on..
I've been into PC-painting myself for quite a long time, only producing crap. But i found the joy of pixeling again when i returned to a *real* lo-tech bitmap editor :). It's not the amount of pictures that count, it's the quality and effort that counts!! |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1993 |
Regarding UFLI-MAX...
I did a tiny calculation, please correct me if I'm wrong:
* 6 sprites take minimum 1+6*2=13 cycles (if you use RMW-instructions).
* FLI char fetch takes 40 cycles.
* D011 write to make FLI takes 6 cycles.
Left is: 63-(13+40+6)=4 cycles.
Now, how on earth is it possible to make any screen or bank flip in 4 cycles each line? Of course you could flip every second line or so... |
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Bizzmo
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 82 |
I can see what Deev is getting at. Personally I find it incredibly difficult to do anything where I can't play around in a "freehand sketch" mode. I find the thought of doing everything in a zoom window pixel by pixel very daunting. I have a lot of respect for anyone who can work that way.
The way to encourage more people to take on a technically difficult format is to create an editor (on whatever platform) that gives the "artist" as much control and easy of use as possible, and prevents them from spending days banging their hear against the wall due to technical frustrations!
I can see that formats that push the 64 to the limit are going to be difficult/impossible to draw directly, so this would seem to be the perfect opportunity for a tool that gives you these functions!
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Quote: Regarding UFLI-MAX...
I did a tiny calculation, please correct me if I'm wrong:
* 6 sprites take minimum 1+6*2=13 cycles (if you use RMW-instructions).
* FLI char fetch takes 40 cycles.
* D011 write to make FLI takes 6 cycles.
Left is: 63-(13+40+6)=4 cycles.
Now, how on earth is it possible to make any screen or bank flip in 4 cycles each line? Of course you could flip every second line or so...
just check out ninjas routine.. he's using WICKED illegals to have a different d018/dd00 combo each line, using only 4 cycles for that, and 4 cycles for the $d011 write..
@tch : ULFI is 200 lines high, because you still have some cycles free to do multiplexing.. there's even enough cycles free to split spritecolors vertically every once in a while.
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quote: @Deev: There will never be any true-color mode, so bitching with pixels is THE way to do it. If you want a free-hand painting prog on the PC, why not load a proper palette into your favourite PhotoChop and go on? Converting it to whatever mode you want later on..
I've been into PC-painting myself for quite a long time, only producing crap. But i found the joy of pixeling again when i returned to a *real* lo-tech bitmap editor :). It's not the amount of pictures that count, it's the quality and effort that counts!!
oh yeah, I realise it will always be difficult to work in, but never underestimate the simple pleasures of a mouse, and a few brush options :)
Don't get me wrong, I still use c64 editors for quite a few jobs, but there's something about these hires modes that begins to rot my mind after more than a couple of hours :) I agree quality matters more than quantity (not sure effort always counts, some great stuff can sometimes be pixelled in an evening), but it's a shame when the quantity is zero because the editor drives you insane. Maybe that's just me though :) |
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