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Wired AI Ninja Compo 2023 |
Event Type :
Standalone Compo
Dates :
4 - 24 December 2023
Organizers :
hedning, The Sarge
Competition Results :
C64 Demo
C64 Graphics
Mixed Graphics
User Comment
Submitted by ws on 27 March 2024
| This compo really changed alot of things, I HOPE. |
User Comment
Submitted by Digger on 2 January 2024
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 1 January 2024
| Results updated! Congrats to everyone, as we together created a huge debate and discussion about this AI thing. |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 25 December 2023
| Voting phase starts now, and I will screenshot the results jan 1st 2024. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 21 December 2023
| Let’s hope the flooding ends when the compo ends. This is a warning about the future. |
User Comment
Submitted by Peacemaker on 20 December 2023
yeah, csdb has now more ugly looking wired images, where you see 99% they are wired.
i see 1 or 2 exceptions.
and we learned too: workstages prof nothing, can be faked and are looking better than "original workstages". |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 19 December 2023
| Successful compo it seems, whatever discussion we had. I am happy that it at least stirred the pot, and made people aware of the AI "problem". |
User Comment
Submitted by DjS on 14 December 2023
Most of those pictures are super pretty, I'm wondering whether I should even bother anymore to pick up my wacom pen and draw+pixel stuff by hand...
Hmm...
I'm a bit sad that it has come to this somehow... |
User Comment
Submitted by Oriens on 14 December 2023
Some nice art in there.
As long as it is tagged "AI" I do not see why there should be space on this.
The C64 scene is very conservative and close minded, I'm not surprised of all these comments. |
User Comment
Submitted by bexxx on 14 December 2023
| Guys, seriously, I started to code on C64 this year to get away from all that modern crap, and now I sit at my desk and use OpenAI DALLe to do something for this compo ... |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 13 December 2023
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Submitted by rexbeng on 13 December 2023
| @Electric & @Shocker; I kind of already did that on the forum branch of this conversation, although perhaps I took that argument a little bit further. Why has this discussion been split between two different areas, anyway? |
User Comment
Submitted by Electric on 13 December 2023
| Agree with what @Shocker says - would love to see Facet's process. It seems to me as heavily smashed PhotoShop collage retouched for C64. |
User Comment
Submitted by El Jefe on 12 December 2023
@The Sarge: You are talking about soulless gfx. I totally agree with you but I wonder why nobody wants to mention any "artists", so I'll do the first step. Some pics i really wonder about how they came to life are some of Facet's works:
WaterFall
RollerCoaster
Archimedes' Dial
just to mention a few ...
Would love to see worksteps of these pics and see how facet created them step by step out of his inspiration. |
User Comment
Submitted by chatGPZ on 11 December 2023
| Photography is a good analogy indeed (including all the esoteric rage around it). Except so far AI generates pretty random results :) |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2023
| Like the annoying “that’s what photography did to painting” speech. Yeah, man, you do realize that the photo camera didn’t come embedded with all the pictures ever made. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 11 December 2023
A technological tool aims to liberate humans from the boring work so that he/she can concentrate on fun and creative part.
I think that what we colloquially call “AI” in this conversation aims to liberate humans from fun and creative work and leave them with the boring part.
So, no, I don’t buy “this is just another tool” speech, in fact that kind of speech sometimes strikes me as being superficial. |
User Comment
Submitted by Frantic on 11 December 2023
| @sarge: yes, someone said that AI isn't a tool like a hammer, but (at least in some respects) more like hiring a carpenter to do the work for you. At some point a difference in degree becomes a difference in kind. |
User Comment
Submitted by The Sarge on 11 December 2023
Exactly @Higgie. This is what I've been saying all the time. This is what I meant earlier with this all risk end up being AI watching AI generated stuff. Totally soulless without any connections to the human soul. Totally uninteresting.
What I also read here is the some think that AI is "just another tool" so we should deal with it and use it to our advantage. It really isn't. Up until now all new tools for making art, music, code etc has been tools that has helped the creator with making his art. Like drawing a circle, making a new sound on a synthesiser etc. This was pretty common perception when synthesise music was invented. "Now the musician does not do the music himself!" when it was far from the truth. It was in some cases even more difficult to make synth music than regular music because of all the technical knowledge and really complicated workflows you now had to have and work in a completely different way.
But it has never removed the total labour, talent and handcraft of life long learning that AI is doing now. You still up until this point had to do all the work yourself with color choice, composition, idea, shapes like human form etc. AI removes ALL that. And this is the new thing with AI. Its such a big change we have never seen or faced before. |
User Comment
Submitted by Higgie on 11 December 2023
A few more thoughts, although I actually wanted to ignore the topic. ;)
What bothers me about the use of AI, apart from social and political questions beyond the C64, is that we have a scene culture here that is particularly manifested in groups of people being creative together and in a certain way facing competition . So it's about interaction between people. I always ask myself what drives people... e.g. If you have an inspiration or idea for a demo, but you are not able to implement this idea with your own resources. Why not ask your scene buddies if they would like to be involved? Instead, by using AI you avoid human interaction and go straight to the competitive part. If the interaction in the scene, promoted by AI, is only based on the competitive and no longer on the creative and collaborative aspects, then the scene, as I understand it, loses its meaning. someone who wants a scene that doesn't feel much different than, for example, tiktok, might like it. For my part, I would rather turn to other creative hobbies. |
User Comment
Submitted by iAN CooG on 11 December 2023
"we have been using tools for generating code for years"
I don't know if you are speaking for yourself, but I don't. |
User Comment
Submitted by Scarzix on 11 December 2023
Wow! that's a lot of TLDR comments. Read a few, adding my own :D
I believe the AI is here to stay, so we have to ajust how we think about it.
To me, we have been using tools for generating code for years? our music and graphic editors also becomes more and more advanced.
The difference is AI allows "newbies" to produce "semi good" quality with only a few lines of prompts.
But, my bet is that, if the PRO people starts to embrace AI to optimize their workflows, we will see even more crazy results.
Heck, if we can get AI to write the boilerplate stuff from scratch and then use our human brains to be creative on top of that, why not see what we can make of it?
I know coders uses templates and "tools" written to ease the day, eg. build scripts to prepare disk images instead of handwriting the compile and build on each try
Graphic artists utilizes a lot of programs to prepare an image for faster processing - just like Disney used "see through paper" back in the days for speeding up hand animation.
Musicians utilizes a lot of instruments/software to compose and then in the end, "compile it" into something the SID can actually play. They use rutines to play the numbers, and they certainly dont write a new player pr. tune. Lately, it seems that mixing samples into a SID is also "totally cool and the best" for music-compos, which in my opinion is no longer a "pure SID" and should be kept/released in seperate SID compos.
Where is the limit? Can we use pre-calculated vectors/animations and pre-calculated samples for "upping the sound" in digital tunes, but that's totally cool, but using AI as a tool is not?
I expect it all to come to a level at some point where I can just "speak" to my computer and by iterating my commands, I will slowly sculp the output to my likings - can I call it handmade? no... is it creative? hmmm, I believe industrialization went through the same problems when we started building factories and handcrafted skills were less important - did it make the quality better? No, but cheaper. Do we have a growing community or a slowly dying community of old geeks who becomes more and more complaining sofasceners instead of creating stuff themselfs?
Why not embrace it full speed and see how crazy demos/productions we can make utilizing these powers?
Heck, we use Ultimate64 cartridges to speed up the load times, we add hardware modifications to our beloved breadbins to make them even more powerful, but the "Gods of almight creative powers" cannot accept that new tools gives new options?
The only thing I would love is that people were more "open" about what toolchain they use to make their stuff, so we can all learn from it.
To me that would be total creativity - show how you do your magic, become a king of knowledge instead of keeping your secrets to yourself like a small boy. Teach your magic to others, and let them raise the bars on whats possible.
I did that when I started using CheeseCutter. I thought, we need more SID musicans and this tool is easy to use, so I create a few YouTubes about how to use it + I spend months on building up a Facebook community to help newcommmers learning how to produce SID music in that editor.
We saw a LOT of currently famous composers starting there, I am not saying CheeseCutter is the best choice - not at all - infact its kinda dead by now, due to lack of updates and support (but thats another story) - my point though, is that I wanted MORE and BETTER COMPOSERS to emerge on the demo scene - and they did!
So, AI is perhaps "cheating" - true, if you say you did it all yourself. But using it as a tool on your path to create something even better, I don't see it like that. |
User Comment
Submitted by ws on 11 December 2023
| i believe it would be cool + helpful adding prompts and toolchain to respective entries, for those who want to - completely optional. perhaps an oversight in the initial compo recommendations. at least in r/sdnsfw it is a much welcome practice :-) |
User Comment
Submitted by Higgie on 10 December 2023
| @GPZ: Why don't you just say "Non-maskable interrupt" when you mean it? :-D |
User Comment
Submitted by chatGPZ on 10 December 2023
LOL @ common misconception plus link of an 80s release. pahahahahaha. Experts speaking. Try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krautrock and learn something :D
It's very similar to how US rap artists embraced the N word really. |
User Comment
Submitted by Higgie on 10 December 2023
| and BTW: what a silly discussion going on here in the comments. why didn't you moderators move it to the forums, as you normally do? ... the whole matter (AI / Conversions) is so sad and depressing already. but this flood of comments makes me feel like the scene sucks big time ATM, at least in the way it presents itself here. |
User Comment
Submitted by Higgie on 10 December 2023
Kraut was a term used for german Soldiers or the Germans in general.
German rock music, when it spread to the UK, was refered to as Krautrock. (rock music from the Krauts)
The german musicians embraced that term later.
Weed might have been involved somewhere, still. but it was not like you (ws) wish it has been. ;)
i'm too lazy to search for literature or documentions proving this. you can find them yourself. |
User Comment
Submitted by ws on 10 December 2023
| @groepaz: it is sadly a widespread misconception that krautrock has anything to do with sauerkraut, rather weed is meant. but back in the day, that was a little bit difficult to pitch to the media due to the silly criminalization of the stuff. |
User Comment
Submitted by chatGPZ on 10 December 2023
| Ah, the famous SS Bands aka Krautrock <3 |
User Comment
Submitted by El Jefe on 10 December 2023
@hedning: I had actually decided not to take part in the discussion anymore, but now that I'm wondering more and more about your weird last comment, Ill ask you: Are you trying to play the racism joker to clear yourself?
I (and all the participants in the Krautland demo) am/are aware that Kraut is meant as an insult for Germans. We find it kinda funny here in Germany as we actually eat much Kraut and love it. Im not German but im very well integrated in the German society. I even feel and think like a German, even if I am not. So we all together decided to make fun of that insult and call ourselves Krauts and the demo Krautland. Could you please explain where it is a double standard to make fun of an insult that goes against the German people and critizising you for your insulting attitude. Please elaborate. Hope I will not be asked to shut up once again after you dragged me into this discussion again in this very lousy way. |
User Comment
Submitted by ws on 9 December 2023
| Please excuse me, not wanting to derail any further, but actually hedning has a valid point there. I am german, too, and never would i call myself or others a kraut, unless i wanted to picture them in a ww2-uniform, munching sour cabbage and blindly following orders. Wherever you got the impression that it is a kinda bro-ish cool and funny thing to say: it is not. It has a very disrespectful meaning, no matter how much anyone is smiling. Would you also happily call yourself a deutscher Michel or a potatohead? |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 9 December 2023
| Peacemaker: Sure. I just want to point out the obvious double standards here, and yes, in my opinion you are wrong. Only in the modern self-hating era of the West someone can be this self-destructive. But that's my standpoint. Also you guys seems to keep on confusing criticism of a something someone did with attacking the author. That is, in my world, completely bananas. Maybe we should carry on. If you are unable to understand that statement, we won't end up in any consensus. |
User Comment
Submitted by Peacemaker on 9 December 2023
hedning: Comparing the N word with Kraut is ridiculous and inappropriate.
If someone calls me, i am german, a Kraut, he gets a smile back. haha
Jesus, even the people involved at the Kraut Demo are all germans... You make yourself looking stupid here. You better stop :D |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 9 December 2023
| I also love that Shocker is so devoted to be offended by proxy, and still was part of Krautland. (If you have any historical knowledge at all you know that "kraut" practically is the n-word, an ethnic slur, for Germans, originating from British and Americans soldiers in WWI and II.) But hey. Time to stir the pot some more, ninja some more, and also time for more popcorn. |
User Comment
Submitted by Gordian on 9 December 2023
Quoting Raistlin
I heard that private votes could soon be turned off
"Eight is safe" won't be anymore... Ninja-voters exposed;) |
User Comment
Submitted by chatGPZ on 9 December 2023
Quote:Removing voting on CSDb would be a good step.
yup |
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Submitted by Burglar on 9 December 2023
The key issue with AI and wired gfx is that it is hard, maybe impossible to detect. If only 3% of the ppl on dedicated gfx socials can accurately determine, who's going to decide?
Entertain me, CSDB. is a great example, the fake workstages look great to me, on what basis would someone say it's wired/ai?
For the X gfx compos I added one simple rule:Quote:Respect your fellow artists, please do not wire or use AI.
I think we should trust each other a bit as well. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 9 December 2023
| @ Ian Coog : Haha, you dirty dog you! ;D |
User Comment
Submitted by iAN CooG on 9 December 2023
To be fair, Peacemaker is doing his best to avoid writing D-mage handle correctly, he used Dflame, Dmagic, but never D-mage.
/me runs away, leaving few popcorns traces in the process. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 9 December 2023
| Sure man, drop the *-**** handle a few hundred times more, that will help heal the supposed shaming. |
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 9 December 2023
Hein: Ofcourse they can freely talk on here. I never said the opposite.
And i am alowed to ask questions to the ones who are woried. If they want to answer its up to them. |
User Comment
Submitted by Hein on 9 December 2023
| @Peacemaker, I (or you) can't speak for D-Mage or other pixel artists, but they're free to express their opinion about this compo and the AI topic, from a personal point of view. |
User Comment
Submitted by Peacemaker on 9 December 2023
Hein, are you talking to me? Not sure. But if so. This Event was started because of DMagics pic and a response pic to it.
So, are there any proofs that Dmagic used AI?
And about the talk about compos on parties. Who did wire? I mean, some artists here seem to be woried. If they are woried they need a reason. An the reason sould be that they saw wired work on recent gfx compos. or?
Dears, let us know who recently wired and submited the work to Compos. But please, no guys with a comeback after 30 years ;) |
User Comment
Submitted by Hein on 9 December 2023
| I guess you'd have to ask them yourself. Tbh, I've not yet seen a c64 compo dedicated to AI conversions before. |
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 9 December 2023
"So lot of people mentioned well known guys are also using AI / Converts why are the names kept under blankets? If you really want to raise this "awareness" why dont you tell their names ? You are only brave when its about laughing out someone unknown."
This!
If you guys bring up that topic about wiring, i guess you have some good proofs that (well known) artists attending to recent GFX Compos and uploading their stuff here too, are wiring. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 9 December 2023
Quote: public shaming of ******
Oh God, enough of that already. The compo underwent a few name changes, and the orgas explicitly said it was NOT about shaming anyone. Which word is problematic, which word spells someone’s name, is it “wired”, “AI”, “ninja”, “compo” or “2023”?
It seems to me that perhaps you are (inadvertently) doing the shaming right now. The handle some of you keep repeating and I will not would be long forgotten in this compo if you didn’t repeat it every few posts. If someone wandered into all this this weekend, he/she would not have a clue about any shaming and naming names if it weren’t for someone repeating it. |
User Comment
Submitted by Hein on 9 December 2023
| I think D-Mage can speak for himself here. Same as other pixel artists, if they want. |
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Submitted by Oswald on 9 December 2023
"that makes people see how easy it is to make these images in contrast to real pixel art "
Do you realise people know this already? What the matter didnt need is this public shaming of D-Mage.
So lot of people mentioned well known guys are also using AI / Converts why are the names kept under blankets? If you really want to raise this "awareness" why dont you tell their names ? You are only brave when its about laughing out someone unknown. |
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE on 9 December 2023
Quote: I heard that private votes could soon be turned off
Haha are you seeing/reading this Jetan, you little AI supported coward?
Please forgive me for this rude interruption guys, now please carry on with the program. |
User Comment
Submitted by The Sarge on 9 December 2023
We are talking about AI+converting in general @chatGPZ. As been said here several times before in this now long thread. Compos is one thing but also here on CSDb and other social media.
Just to have some kind of knowledge that makes people see how easy it is to make these images in contrast to real pixel art done completely by hand that is your art and not someone else which you take credit for and appreciate it accordingly.
So the discussion is bigger than just compos.
Removing anonymous voting on CSDb would be a good step. But not the ultimate solution of course.
And the newly added AI to this is of course something that adds complexity to this. Makes it even easier to fake stuff than searching for images on Google and make them "your own". It also makes it nigh on impossible to find the original and therefore proof that one stole the image. So I don't agree with its the same as it has been for 30 years as you say. |
User Comment
Submitted by chatGPZ on 9 December 2023
The plan for _csdb_ is to remove voting alltogether.
I fail to see how that matters in this context though - we are talking about proper compos and not this csdb bullshit, right? :) |
User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin on 9 December 2023
| WS: yep, I heard that private votes could soon be turned off - so mystery downvoters would all be revealed overnight. Imagine the fun and hilarity then 8) .. I’d love to see it. |
User Comment
Submitted by ws on 8 December 2023
Quote:But still a lot of converted images slipped through and scored high in party
compos(*) - how could this happen?
I predict there will soon be a tool that helps analyze if the amount of optimization vs. colour clashes and unusual pixel placements relates to how human user input would actually turn out. And hell i don't want to be part of it, because what i researched the other day looks really grim. I strongly recommend not taking this path but encouraging future transparency and openness. Also if we could get rid once and for all of the anonymous voting and dubious behind-the-scenes activity, that would really help. Also those who hate eachother should meet in a separate room and just fistfight the fuck.
But since pleople who reveal such simple solutions tend to get nailed to crosses, i'd like to underline that this is just another satirical nonsense ws-gtfo comment. |
User Comment
Submitted by chatGPZ on 8 December 2023
Quote:It was, back then, pretty easy to find the originals
But still a lot of converted images slipped through and scored high in party
compos(*) - how could this happen?
Quote:You can just got to some FB gfx groups and see how 97% of the people can’t tell the difference between copy, AI, conversion and original work.
That was kinda my point before. AI doesn't really add anything new. It's the same old discussion ever since Dani copied victorias secret :)
(*) I am explicitly excluding anything "online compo" here, especially those running on csdb, as there is usually a lot more time for research, which you simply don't have at a party. |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 8 December 2023
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 8 December 2023
| Raistlin, hug to you. You deserve and maybe you need it :D |
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Submitted by Electric on 8 December 2023
| @Groepaz My earlier suggestion for tagging AI does not really concern normal pixel gfx compo entries that have (hopefully) more strict check-thru. It was merely meant in general as most of the people do not anymore see what is original own piece and what AI-generated. And as Hein mentioned, AI is commonly used to work on a references that you can't simply google – they’re ‘originals’ made by AI. Most of the copied images (that scene has more and more) are relatively easy to track in case the author did not his / her job decently by modifying the originals enough. You can just got to some FB gfx groups and see how 97% of the people can’t tell the difference between copy, AI, conversion and original work. That’s no wonder (as this compo shows). |
User Comment
Submitted by Hein on 8 December 2023
| I believe AI generated images are simulacra, as in, newly generated 'originals' instead of copies of something. My guess is that artists using AI find it to be a pardon for their cheat compared to using a direct conversion from a piece of art by another human. After all, they typed in the prompt that generated the image, probably giving them the idea that they are the original artist. But that's a wild guess. I haven't experimented enough with AI to reflect on my resulting gut feeling. Maybe I'd feel proud as well. |
User Comment
Submitted by chatGPZ on 8 December 2023
"no converts" has been a rule at parties since forever, so wtf does this AI thing change there?
And yeah, zero self reflection, indeed. |
User Comment
Submitted by Electric on 8 December 2023
| @Peacemaker Well, it would definitely easen our party orgs’ life if the guidelines would be fairly common for the scene and its parties. That does not mean we could not decide what we want in our compos – Zoo has its own rules that emphasize our values that we see are best for the scene. We want to see the scene as something that can evolve rather than regress and fade away. Read: we are doing the party for the scene, newbies and public as well. From that point this discussion here (and its conclusionsx for the scene) are essential. |
User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin on 8 December 2023
| Also, interesting to see some of the names having a go at Hedning here… if I were a snowflake, I would’ve rage-quit the scene years ago due to shitty comments from some of them… pot-kettle-black and all that. Have a big effing man-hug or whatever you want and move on :p |
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Submitted by Raistlin on 8 December 2023
| Sorry, I think I took a wrong turn somewhere… I thought that this was the forum for talking about lack of codep0rn in “pop” demos of late? #BringBackCrossbow #BringBackKjer #DownWithThisSortOfThing |
User Comment
Submitted by Peacemaker on 8 December 2023
| Electric: I want the party / event organizer to decide whatever they want to do in their compitions. its their event not mine neither yours. and if they decide that there will be no tags about AI, or own Category etc, then its fine for me. If i see a wired job, it will get let points from me. |
User Comment
Submitted by Electric on 8 December 2023
@Peacemaker
So you do not want opennness but instead want to leave room for shady biz?
I’m not in with this and think most will agree that transparency is a good thing.
Adding productional notes is not ‘supervising’ – you’re still allowed to vote as you wish. A lot of people are not as experienced with animations, conversions and AI as you and will warmly welcome ALL information given. It’s also sort of ‘educational’ – providing workstages, open code and whatever gives people way to learn.
What comes to demos and their use of animation, this is much more acceptable than in the past when it was a complete no-no. We used lots of animation in Skybox but opened it all up afterwards, receiving lots of good feedback from random sceners and non-sceners (in FB). It did not take away anything from us but gave a lot to some people who wondered how some specific things were done. What’s so bad about that? |
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Submitted by CreaMD on 8 December 2023
The Sarge pointed some of my concerns quicker than I could finish, but here are my 3 cents.
1. One shouldn't submit cropped and converted images to the C64 gfx compo, regardless of the amount of work invested in polishing. Prevention (not doing it) is more effective than restriction (disqualification).
2. If someone's only documented image in their C64 career is a conversion, it's irrational to call it a comeback. Without a track record of previous C64 work and no history of achievements, especially if the person was known to be part of the scene in the past, they shouldn't expect the same treatment as a newbie. The scene has always been harsh and cruel.
3. People tend to spend too much time fighting against people instead of ideas, both in general and around CSDB. Consider whether the idea of this compo is genuinely bad, or you just don't like Hedning. Ask yourself this, and do something about it. Preferably gfx, or demo. |
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Submitted by D-Mage on 8 December 2023
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Submitted by The Sarge on 8 December 2023
@peacemaker @chatGPZ @shocker
Many things you write here is not relevant for this discussion. Blaming Hedning for this and that does not add to this discussion at all. It just pollute this and makes it hard to read and to try to have a meaningful discussion.
We also know where you stand on this by now, you are repeating yourselves again and again. We know. Appreciate your thoughts and that you spend a lot of time on thinking about this though. :)
But to bring this discussion forward we cut out personal agendas etc and this compo is here until it ends.
It has surely brought the AI+converting to the table. People really seem to care.
Some entries here has been real eye openers how easy it is to make them and also how hard it is for people to see that they actually are AI+converted images. Thinking of Dr. TerrorZ, Shuri-Ken and Shuriken by DJ Röv. It WILL be hard for organisers in the future to select images to include in compos in the future. That is for sure! And this discussion will in a way help them, hopefully. Because this problem gets attention. Even if it hurts.
This is also mainly a discussion for the graphic artists in the scene. After all it's pixel art we talk about. I love that we get insights and comments from coders, and it almost seems to me the ones that oppose this the most is coders and not us who do the actual pixel pushing. Why is that? I don't know for sure.
Maybe it's that visual art means a lot for a lot of people. More than I thought. If that is the case then Im happily surprised. :) |
User Comment
Submitted by Peacemaker on 8 December 2023
back to topic:
you guys make a mistake here. i dont need supervised voting at a gfx compo. as well as i dont need any tags or whatever if there are effects in a demo that are animated, instead of realtime. i dont want to be treated if i am stupid, and i guess that goes for many other people here.
let the organizers of a party / event decide which gfx should be shown at a compo. and if they think its wired, it will not be shown at all. that one i can support. |
User Comment
Submitted by Peacemaker on 8 December 2023
| what shocker and groepaz said... |
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Submitted by hedning on 8 December 2023
| Electric: sorry. You are right. :) |
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Submitted by Electric on 8 December 2023
| OK fuzzholes, you're interrupting an important discussion here… |
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Submitted by chatGPZ on 8 December 2023
See, it isn't about my assholeism here. It's about yours. Grow some balls. (And if you still think it's about "discussing wirejobs" then grow a brain too)
And perhaps stop deleting and changing what you posted. It doesn't make you look less like an asshole. |
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Submitted by El Jefe on 8 December 2023
@hedning: funny to see how desperate you are to emphazize that you were not trying to shame anyone:
Fact is that you started the compo making fun of someones work, later you seemed to have noticed about your wrong, modified the text from being disrespectful to some lalala explanation and now you're fighting not to be regarded as being disrespectful, even trying to blame other people's misdeeds from the past to clear yourself.
dude you are a moderator on here, open your eyes, be respectful to eceryone or leave it be!
If it was not about shaming anyone, you could have just called out an AI compo as Spider-J suggested... |
User Comment
Submitted by hedning on 7 December 2023
No public shaming done; please use your intellect to just try to separate a product from the author in question, and life will be easier for you henceforth, I promice. But I have noted your opinions in my calendar. <3
And a question to Groepaz: Repeated personal public attacks seems ok in your world, I can tell. And I can quote you on that. You have been a real asshole towards me and others on a personal level, online, and publically, since 2009 at least, but I have no knowledge how you acted before that. But discussing principles like AI and wirejobs is not ok? Amazing. |
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Submitted by chatGPZ on 7 December 2023
| Jailbird and me agree. Mark it in your calendar :) |
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Submitted by jailbird on 7 December 2023
Still can't understand why 40+ years old people still care so much about this shit to legitimate a public shaming.
Grow up. This is simply disgusting. |
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Submitted by Zephyr on 7 December 2023
| I pushed some pixels in mine - please DSQ me! |
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Submitted by Wile Coyote on 7 December 2023
I figured the purpose of the compo is to:
A. Generate an image using an online AI image generator.
B. Convert the AI image to Commodore 64 using an image converter.
Presumably the moment a human pushes any pixels, the entry is disqualified? |
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Submitted by Sulevi on 7 December 2023
| Regarding the recent wiring/AI debates I have decided to add working stages animations to all my pics, which I have been making just for the fun of it. Some of them reveal butt ugly steps of the sometimes messy progress which I would rather not show to the public, but I guess it's better for the sake of transparency. :) |
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Submitted by Electric on 7 December 2023
Yes, that is the ultimate truth with anything: you need certain difficultness in order to learn. If it all is too easy you're learning nothing.
This is something I keep myself aware of with my own work, all the time. Whenever something feels really 'hard' then I'm on the right path - challenging myself. If I manage to get through I've learned something. It’s sort of a play with ‘what the F I’m doing indeed’ and rewards with more funny stuff (like C64 pixeling that is a hobby of course).
As said, this applies to anything… from growing your kids to grow up our dear +40 year old scene.
A metaphor: plants placed in wind grow stronger. |
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Submitted by Bitbreaker on 7 December 2023
| Basically you could participate with your Tesla, but the feeling of winning will be poor (yes, i know, there's humans that just need the win at any price for their ego, but i assume we are all grown ups :-D), and also will the gain of skills be zero. It will only grow in uncomfortable settings where you are confronted with fails. Failing drives humans to get eager and gain more skills and grow. Means, it needs fails (but of course also success at times after training shows effects) to grow self-confident in a certain field. You can't get any better if there's no critics but just praise. |
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Submitted by Electric on 7 December 2023
@Bitbreaker Deep yeah and agree of course but this is not what the 'gate' has been about – C64 pixel graphics – that has always been defined as pixeled by the author, and during 2000s as basing on your own original art and ideas.
Spider's thought relates more with just graphics in general.
I mean: people enjoy Tour de France but it does not mean you can participate with your Tesla in it. |
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Submitted by Bitbreaker on 7 December 2023
I very much like the deepness of this thought spider-j shared in this discussion:
"but also live with the consequences that you as a human being are staying below the limits you could reach for yourself." |
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Submitted by Electric on 7 December 2023
| Hey, and what about tagging AI art with simple 'AI' in pixels? |
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Submitted by Electric on 7 December 2023
@Peacemaker You are absolutely right on that this debate and compo should have been started a long time ago – we’ve seen AI and conversions used way too much in compos and especially demos. This is never mentioned and converted art is credited as normal pixel art. That’s what lamers do and we should get rid of it.
@spider-j I do not indeed agree that most of people do not care. I think it’s more complex – some will pay great attention, some care a bit and some do not care at all. As a result this would already make the difference between good hand-pixeled works and fully generated, at least in compos.
I think for most of us gfxers who participate every now and then in graphics compos the main thing is to try to do a good image, take the challenge and beat one’s previous works. If this succeeds then it’s just the same if the work places top, mid-range or bottom – there are always plenty of good gfx released in the major competitions and difference between 1st and 10th place is just very slight.
In here the public awareness of the nature of each pic would be essential. If conversion would be mentioned in advance and AI credited properly for the work it has done, it would effect the voting and make the results more reasonable. I personally think that conversions and AI pics would end up bottom or highest mid-range.
I must say I feel pretty angry if the compo top works seem converted. Especially when there are newcomers and even kids who are left behind of conversions or AI, with pics they’ve prolly used really a lot of time and effort. That just does not feel fair.
In general I think pixeled gfx and AI / conversions should be put in different categories.
—
Closing the discussion a bit I would propose the following moves:
1) AI art should have clear production note along stating what it is.
2) Conversions should clearly state the reference images and credit their authors – even if used as references for a collage.
3) Party orgs, group moderators etc who show these images to public shall include the information (1, 2) that the work shown is AI or a conversion (or both).
4) Workstages that clearly present the making of the image from scratch into final mandatory for all the pixel gfx compos. Timelapse preferred but optional.
5) Major compos should have (again) capable juries that go through the works with patience and make additional notes to them in case of doubt.
6) Separate compos for AI / conversion art.
7) Separate ‘type of release’ here in CSDB for AI / conversion art.
8) Demos using AI / conversion art are expected to mention and credit that. |
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Submitted by Hein on 7 December 2023
| If there are enough people creating these AI images, it might become an uninteresting commodity like canned soup or something. In the meantime, let's allow pixel artists to shed a tear now and then. Sob. |
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Submitted by CreaMD on 7 December 2023
Spider-J: I use AI in my day to day job. Started out of curiosity an now I use it for everyday refactoring and code snippet creating (php, js mostly). And I wish there were no limits and I could feed it complete codebase of my legacy projects and then analyze and refactor them with it's help. I'm sure the time will come when this will be easily possible. And I also believe, that it will never completely replace creative people. After all it's only capable of doing, what it's being fed and trained for, on basis of statistic probability. That's why it generates more or less of the same all the time. Which is actually very good from the perspective of a programmer striving for best practices and code maintainability.
We are in the beginning of the next industrial (r)evolution. It might save us a lot of time and energy that we can spend enjoying life and it will very probably lead us to rethink ranking our our values. And maybe we fail in doing that, as we usually do (because we suck at being sensible and responsible), but maybe it will be needed in order for us to progress to Star Trek type of society. :-) Actually it's quite funny to think about treks becoming non-fiction.
Nature of humanity (in general) doesn't allow long phases of happiness, but I'm very optimistic that I'm not going to live long enough to experience the total collapse of our current system. I'm a bit afraid about the kids though... ...but well, they live in the future, they will handle it. |
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Submitted by spider-j on 7 December 2023
Call me naive, but to me all that counts is the result. To not hurt any graphicians feelings I decided not to vote on graphics unless there's a cat - then I vote 10. Imho the most important thing for an artist is to do what he/she/it loves to do despite of any compo results.
I mean: in music this has been the case since ever. Ask Randall / Hate Bush / Super Vagina: he's one of the most talented musicians in the whole scene, but as long he's doing what he likes he will end up in mid range at best in compos. Because the audience won't care if you make something "technically good" or whatever. That will only be other musicians.
And I guess the same goes for graphicians. Most people see the result and won't care if its handcrafted or wired or AI generated.
Make a simple, good sounding tune with e / C / G / D and chances are high you will beat Randall (sorry that I picked you as an example) by 5 or 10 places in a compo.
And maybe because of AI now has come the time when $randomUserX can win or rank high in graphics compos where some Mermaid or The Sarge (who I personally always will vote 10 for the second reason despite cats: anarchy / circle A) or whoever eventually can't compete when it comes to crowdpleasing.
But imho: all we do here is not about crowdpleasing or getting high ranks in some competition ~500 people around the globe care about, but because we like to do what we do. Because we like to be creative. Because we can talk with our scene homies about what we tried / did despite $randomProductionY getting the first place in the compo.
Personally I hate AI. I decided for myself my career as coder will end as soon as my boss will request me using AI for my day to day job. I will never use AI for anything because it is against everything I believe mankind to be.
But if anyone decides to go that path: I'd say okay, dig your own grave. Have fun "winning" or making "good places" in some compos but also live with the consequences that you as a human being are staying below the limits you could reach for yourself.
So imho: do AI just like you want. But then also live with the fact that some people will complain / diss / shit on your "work". Time will tell how many people really care. I'm not sure about myself either. As I said: I hate AI, but I do love cats. Probably an AI picture with (a) cat(s) could still make me vote a "good" vote. Aswell as a picture with dragons ... and / or boobs... Aswell as for most of you will a tune with e / C / G / D ...
TLDR; be proud of what you do. No one else can do it like you! And give a fuck to those who don't understand! |
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Submitted by PAL on 7 December 2023
PS: Archmage also start in pixel software and can paint something insane in that in few hours... I just like to start in other software and go frome there... At X Archmade pixeled an image realtime so fast... I was blown away... I guess we just have different ways of enjoying our hobby and to feel free.
PSS: but a stright convert is never any great to me even I see the light and image quality go through and look great on the c64... but that is rather lame - especially if one claim to have done each pixel by hand |
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Submitted by PAL on 7 December 2023
There are 3600 seconds in one hour. There are 32000 pixels in a 160x200 koala. It would take 8.8 hours to pixel a full koala with every pixel pixelated from start to finish without altering one single final pixel. In this little thought here I assume that one final pixel take 1 second, in paint programs one can paint a line of pixels of course and one gathered like 78 pixels in a fraction of time, maybe in like 2 seconds... but for each of them pixels to remain forever til final image is very weird to put into the timeframe. So let's assume one paints something on paper and scans it, or one creates digital painting or painting blended with photos or textures or something in a photoshop layered document/image and works with that a lot. Then one wants to go into pixels on the c64... it is not so that one starts with a blank canvas in koala painter and starts to count cells and rebuild what one has painted or created with different assets. One does take that image into a paint program for pixels on a retro machine. The pipeline to get a good or great starting point is different between artists.
When I see work stages that no pixels ever alter between them from what is in the final image I get puzzled... because it is not normal to pixel one small segment of an image and it stays the same til final image... it is just a reverse fake workstage humbug.
Our hobby is to create the best we can on our machine... with the limitations... but in a gfx compo it must be an original work most of the time...
Many times I have spoken to the greatest artist on our platform and they could say something like this: I want to be in the compo but I have not started... and it is like 6 hours til the compo... And then they are in the compo with an insane image that would have taken me a week to do great - if I had the talent of creating the image, motif all in the start...
I think the discussion is very valid as the pipelines are very special now. I have seen videos of the sarge drawing the gray face dude lately and I am blown away by that... true real time paint and then alter everything.
I do not know, but I use so many hours after I get what I painted or made into pixels... or also start in pixels... I like the meditative thing about placing them in pixels... but of course I create something and convert it and go from there for 30-100 hours idiot. |
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Submitted by CreaMD on 6 December 2023
| Arguments that may seem pointless actually highlight our strength and determination, transforming seemingly fruitless efforts into thought-provoking endeavors. It's about the courage to persist, even when success seems out of reach. This relentless pursuit challenges us to find meaning and beauty in persistence, even in the face of apparent futility. (ChatGPT) |
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 6 December 2023
| Your sarcasm wont help here. |
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Submitted by The Sarge on 6 December 2023
@peacemaker. Yes, maybe you are on to something.
Actually this is what happened in a discussion between me and Hedning.
The Sarge: "I heard a rumour that some guy called D-mage is coming back to the scene after 30 years!"
Hedning: "Oh really! That's awesome! Who is that?"
The Sarge: "I have no clue. Never heard of him."
Hedning: "I feel bad about this..."
The Sarge: "Yeah, me too."
Hedning: "Do you know when he will post his comeback image?"
The Sarge: "Tomorrow, and I heard its wired. Like SUPER-WIRED!"
Hedning: "Oh god. That's not good! We must scramble quickly making a compo to mock him really bad!"
The Sarge: "YEAH! Good idea! We can't have guys coming back!"
Hedning: "YEAH!"
Bro fists and chest bumps.
End.
Tbh, I think you are seeing ghosts. |
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 6 December 2023
The Sage: "His image just happened to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Unlucky I guess..."
and that is exactly my point. "unlucky"? i am not sure. |
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Submitted by katon on 6 December 2023
| Dear Stage Designers, let me write a few words. The moment I returned to the C64 Stage, I was visually devastated by the quality of the contemporary Stage's production! Starting with graphics, demos, music. I admit that I had trouble distinguishing the conversion or interference of artificial intelligence used in graphics. Now I can differentiate it more, but in fact I'm not a professional graphic designer, but a person who just wanted to paint and get the most out of what graphic editors on C64 have to offer. Whether I succeeded or not, it's not up to me to judge, but I'm old school. and I paint pixel by pixel, from preparing the sketch to filling it in, and I know how much time it takes me (a very long time). I have a dozen or so disks of work phases saved for each graphic, so from this point I am leaning towards The Sarge and point 2 from The Sarge comment. This is my approach to pixel art and will remain so until the end. Best regards to everyone ;-) |
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Submitted by chatGPZ on 6 December 2023
Quote:I don't remember seeing Mid Journey, Stable Diffusion etc being available back then. This compo is about showing the power of AI+conversion to a runnable C64 format. That did not exist back in 1999, neither AI for images or the converters we have now.
Doesn't matter to me a single bit if the source for a converted picture comes from a picture found on the internet, or some AI generated picture. Its the same crap, and involves the same questionable "skills". And noone here would notice where the picture comes from either (unless you are stupid enough to pick a picture that is trivial to find with some image search). |
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Submitted by hedning on 6 December 2023
| Peacemaker: Ok. Again: This compo started after a discussion about AI generated wirejobs in compos. This discussion was initialized by a picture by E-Grass: Cyber Ninja which was an answer on Future Ninja. It's about principles, honesty and how and what people percieve and vote for. It's not aimed at any person. And if you are unable to mentally separate a product from the creators of said product, you need to think again. If I say a demo of yours is ugly, I might be rude, but also honest, creating a startpoint for further debates and discussions, but it does not mean I hate you as a person. |
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Submitted by The Sarge on 6 December 2023
@Peacemaker, I suggest you put aside your personal gripes with people here. It adds nothing to the discussion. A discussion that has been rather good here. Some really valuable points has been made and I hope and think that many of the entries here brings new thoughts to the scene. So in this regard, this compo is very valuable.
There's also been a couple of really good AI+converts done for this compo that are big eye openers for everyone and shows how big this problem is. Without this compo we would not have this discussion which we have now.
As for D-mage (Or who is Dflame that you refer to?). There is really nothing connecting him to this compo. His image just happened to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Unlucky I guess... |
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 6 December 2023
Electric: You seem to be a nice person. I respect your work on c64, its great. That been said, its not a problem that there is a compo like this, BUT WHY and WHEN and by WHOM it was started. Why not starting this compo after a well known artist made his Nth wired image? Then again, why not starting this event,without showing to a certain guy, in this case dflame? I would more support this discussion, if it would have started generaly, without pointing to an artist with a comeback.
I hope you get my point. |
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Submitted by hedning on 6 December 2023
| Peacemaker: I won't review myself. Others can do that. I am not a coder, graphician, or musician, but the scene is bigger than that, and it looks to me like I hopefully got other talents, as I have been in the scene since the 90s, and I am sure you can get a grip on what I have done in and for the C64 scene, and decide for yourself. Or ask someone else that knows me. I am not the person to judge myself. |
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 6 December 2023
| Hedning: your self reflection == 0. Does not make sense to talk with you any further in this case. |
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Submitted by Electric on 6 December 2023
@Peacemaker I may have not followed it all but where's the witchhunt?
All I see is a compo with converted AI images. The entries (getting better and better) already show how easy it is. It starts to get very difficult to recognize what is automated and what is human-made. In general that is just the same but when competing these should be in different categories.
If you mean that this whole discussion is a witchhunt, I do not agree. Scene has never accepted cheaters (but with cracks). That's what I teach to my kid: "Don't cheat". That is what this is about - do not take credit on something that is not made by you. Zero points for zero effort. Simple as fuck.
Just note that for example for us in ZOO this is a problem - we are sharing prizes worth of some k eur and really want the best original works to have their chance. We definitely have to pay more attention to jurying with the '24 edition. Most probably this recent flooding will effect on our demo compo rules as well, with at least an urge to state out if the demo uses AI / converted graphics. This would be announced to the audience who may then judge as they wish. |
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Submitted by hedning on 6 December 2023
| Peacmaker: You fail to understand what I wrote as you refuse to separate work from creator. And the debate started after the release, so The Sarge and I came up with this at this time. I got severly bashed when I came back, both on CSDb, in diskmags and IRC etc, and I learned from it. But it's different when people attacks me in person, from when people criticize releases. |
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 6 December 2023
hedning: yeah right. so this compo would even been started if dflame would not have released his comeback pic? sure.. ;) why did you not start this compo after the 1000th release of a wired image even from well known artist here. you even dont have to look too far to see them.
for me its witchhunt on a person who made a comeback. instead of beeing happy that people return to the c64 scene, you made this lame compo. and therefore i ask:
where did you get your self-confidence to start this witchhunt starting this event while you have no skill at all when it comes to pixels, music and coding. |
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Submitted by The Sarge on 6 December 2023
@chatGPZ. If you by that mean this compo is a rehash of something done 24 years ago you are very wrong.
I don't remember seeing Mid Journey, Stable Diffusion etc being available back then. This compo is about showing the power of AI+conversion to a runnable C64 format. That did not exist back in 1999, neither AI for images or the converters we have now. |
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Submitted by chatGPZ on 6 December 2023
| It's mostly just a rehash of what Deekay already demonstrated on The Party 1999 really. |
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Submitted by hedning on 6 December 2023
| Peacemaker: It's not a witchhunt, it's a compo about wirejobs and AI, initiated by the debate and discussion emanating from D-Mage's converted pic. I seriosuly think it has the potential to be a eye opener for people, and the discussions have already proven to bear fruit. If you can't handle satire and humour, or separate a product from it's creator, you have serious problems. |
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Submitted by chatGPZ on 6 December 2023
Quote:Lovely elitist comment.
The truth is elitist, that's for sure! |
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 6 December 2023
@Electric: There is a difference between starting a Compo and a Witchhunt. I think you ll agree here or? Ofcourse anyone can start a compo, but this one is very different, dont agree?
@Ian: Maybe a bit late :D |
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Submitted by hedning on 6 December 2023
| ian: Dinasours obviously had a "space presser". |
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Submitted by iAN CooG on 6 December 2023
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Submitted by ws on 6 December 2023
| My personal opinion is that this compo raises the awareness towards the AI-low-effort-conversion topic and is therefore helpful in a positive way. As long as we care, it is not yet dead. |
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Submitted by hedning on 6 December 2023
| Groepaz: Lovely elitist comment. Love it. Unsure if it was aimed at me or Pacemaker, though. 馃槝 |
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Submitted by Electric on 6 December 2023
@Peacemaker WOW, Elite in the house - clap clap :D … I thought anyone can work on compos here? Correct if wrong.
As wrote down there - though I do not like this compo too much either - it seems to be very relevant for the moment. I also notice this raises lots of emotions both ways. Btw, wonder why Censor is so active in this gate and merely against it all :) ?
As plenty has written here and there about the conversions, those have been used especially in demos since 80s. The trend (that Sarge writes about) seems to be going towards AI conversions and at least I can say it will make the works much less interesting to me.
Repeating: I (and prolly most) don't have generally that much against the use of AI or converting. It’s interesting, partly. What bugs is that this should be informed in the credits and announced when shown in compos. Then it’s up to everyone’s own choice and principles. Why to hide this information? Bad conscience about the use?
I have / would / will give one–two votes more for original works… and usually downvote a bit the works I’m not sure are self-made.
I hope this requirement becomes standard with all the major C64 parties. It’s a standard / expected in a lot of gfx and art world already. |
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Submitted by chatGPZ on 6 December 2023
| A wise man once said: "If you have no skills in the scene, you can still be a disk mag editor.". Perhaps try that :) |
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 6 December 2023
lol
yeah, thats the answer i was expecting from you. |
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Submitted by hedning on 6 December 2023
| Peacemaker: <3 Thanx for that one, buddy. Peace out. Glad you took the time to reach down from your godlike heights to talk to a nobody like me. |
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 6 December 2023
| hedning: too late. sorry, but looking at your stuff you have done on the c64 (coding, pixel, music), i have no idea where you get your self-confidence to start such a lame compo. |
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Submitted by The Sarge on 6 December 2023
Maybe we should all ask ourselves what we want this scene to be?
1. Do we want to sit at X, Zoo, Transmission64 etc and watch converted images done by another artist and AI stuff in the compos? Or the music compos? And also AI code done for the C64 demos.
2. Or do we want to see the hand pixeled images with personal styles painstakingly done by a human being? Listen to music that is made by a human? Awesome code that is done by a human?
I know which I would choose.
This is also true for the every day feed of stuff done on the C64. So this does not also apply to the compos.
But the first option will happen if we stop caring and respect each other.
Already, and it has been going on for a couple of years now, we have "lost" good artists on the C64. Archmage, Ptoing, Sander, Mermaid, maybe Mirage too, Joe doesn't seem interested anymore. And I can go on... Some may of course have other priorities than C64 right now. But I see a trend. And its going downwards.
If we take time to learn to see the difference between a convert and a handmade pixel art and not directly put a 10/10 and write "best thing ever!" and go on doom scrolling. If not sure, ask someone to help distinguish it from fake or real. We are in no hurry to directly post what we think on social media. Lean back, think and be careful.
Learning and understanding of each part of the scene is the answer. We are not too old to learn new things, yet. :) |
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Submitted by hedning on 6 December 2023
| spider-j : There is nothing in the description about D-Mage anymore, and this is all about the discussion about wired AI art. So no shadow over D-Mage, even if his pic inspired the whole debate, even before this compo started. Compo main pic changed as well. |
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Submitted by rexbeng on 6 December 2023
@Archmage. Fair enough, I don't disagree. Then perhaps we have come to a point at which pixel-art as a medium and as a practice may be considered closer to being a true art, as in it's purest form it would carry all the qualities of drawing and composition alongside technique (because it is technical by it's nature) and ofcourse the creator's personal style. And this goes beyond the boundaries of the C64 or the demoscene in general.
The rest of the story is a matter of concern for computer graphics as a whole. Computer graphics has always been a field for automation in an effort to make the production faster and easier so that even less capable creators may produce acceptable visual content to meet the high consumer demand. Now we are at a point that cropping and gluing and applying effects over photos (the 'post-production' process if you prefer) is being replaced by an even more automated process, where the even less capable creators may push more content.
Do 'true artists' care about consumer content that's being produced for decades through using computer graphics, though? Even those who do use computer graphics in their creative process are not aiming at making 'portraits of movie heroes, pics of girls and cars, dragons, pokemon, Mickey Mouse, Spider-man'. There's been thousands of such images since ages; anybody can make them. Being able to handle Photoshop and Aftereffects or Timanthes and Aseprite is an entirely different and lesser league to having a personal style and being able to pull your own crap out of your ass.
So, just keep doing what you are doing first for yourself, then for people like you. It's always been this way with art however elitist that might sound. |
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Submitted by spider-j on 6 December 2023
Hm. I kind of agree with Oswald here. Making fun of someone just returning to scene is a bit different than making fun of "classic" ugly pics.
On the other hand: if it was my product people were making fun of I'd also laugh about it and probably even would take part in such a compo myself :-)
But of course I already know that bunch of slobs that make up C64 scene and know that 99.9% of them don't act in bad faith and only behave like kids that want to play and have fun.
So maybe someone should write a compo description that this is not about dissing D-Mage, but just taking the AI discussions that followed the release of his image to the next meta level. |
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Submitted by vincenzo on 6 December 2023
I hear the desperate cries of artists - not only graphics but all kind of artists. There's definitely a need to solve the AI problem, but nobody seem to know what would be best to do. It's not easy to draw the line and say "this was a convert, let's DSQ it". It could be that the artist did spend the hours with mockups, drawings etc in various tools, then converted and repixelled it on the C64. Is that cheating? I have no clue, I'm not a gfx artist.
Similarily, I can't really tell if a gfx is a convert or a honest pixel job. I'm blind.
However, on audio-side I'm always sad when people can't tell the difference if a SID is made for 6581 or 8580 and they use the wrong model for playback. It ruins my tracks and my mood too.
However, as a musician I do utilize various tools to help me with my compositions, eg. I use synthesizers to create a sound then I try to recreate that sound on the SID.
Others use modern DAWs to compose a music then export-import MIDI and work their way around it in various ways. Is it cheating? I have no clue and I don't want to make a stand because at the end the composition matters - which... well, I also understand this might not be true for graphics.
So yeah, I'm not actually constructive here, just saying that this whole AI thing makes people desperate and needs a solution. Maybe, instead of shouting at each other it would be better to have discussions of this topic. |
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Submitted by Electric on 6 December 2023
@jab @4gentE I agree that a conversion compo is rather uninteresting BUT I do understand why this was set up: to show how easy it is to do conversions that most of us do not even recognize as that without the label.
@Peacemaker It's another thing to look at the code and learn it. That's how it should go with gfx as well, instead of just pure copy paste. |
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Submitted by Archmage on 6 December 2023
@rexbeng Speaking for myself, I am not describing a "should be". Listing problems without presenting solutions is a privilege which comes with age, and it is one that I hold high.
I am merely announcing that we have come to a point where "hand pixeled" art is dying, and that most people on here either can't tell or don't care.
The two problems I list are hardly recognized as problems by anyone but a few boring old purists. To me as a pixel artist of old there is no point in competing anymore, but I do not expect anyone else to take that view to heart or even care. I can do pixels by hand for myself and enjoy the process.
So no, not really looking for a solution as such. As I say, the only "salvation" possible, namely submitting workstages, is a fragile solution at best. Theory is one thing, but organizing a competition is hard enough as it is without curating the thing in the heat of the moment. And in the end the audience, being the drunken fucktards that they are, don't care anyway. |
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 6 December 2023
whats next? a logo / sign that a vector or similar is precalculated / animated in demos? :D
" We don't steal anyone else code and put it in a demo and credit yourself. If that would happen there would be an outcry too. And this is exactly the same."
exacatly that happens since the beginning of c64. people look at others code, reproduce / improve it. or do you think all coders have found it by themself and "invented" (for themselves), without sources, how fli, fld, sideborder etc pp works? maybe we should credit the founder of sideborder, fli , etc pp in the next demo then? because they found out first how it worked. |
User Comment
Submitted by rexbeng on 6 December 2023
@Archmage, @The Sarge. What you are describing as 'should be' would suggest to 'strip the scene' of more than half the content. Conversions (either straight, or paintovers, or 'loans', or 'inspirations' or whatever you want to call them that remove points from the creative process) have won big events in the past, and are still winning or are rated very high in compos. And I'm originating from a smaller 8bit scene in which, what you describe is even more evident than in the C64 scene.
So the real question is, are you looking for a solution? A way to curate compos better? Then you must have those few 'true artists' decide on the qualities of pictures, as they have the capacity to judge every aspect (the ones Archmage mentions and more). The question is, would you want to do that? Would people agree to that? I'm not so sure it would go well.
If one goes that way, it's easy to deal even with entries like this 'eybrows-ninja' picture, all the more so with pictures that have not much going on about them apart from being 'voter pleasers' in general. |
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Submitted by 4gentE on 6 December 2023
| I'm with jab all the way on this. I can't help but feel this compo is kinda counterproductive. It backfires I'd say. In the end, all this compo will accomplish is boosting the amount of AI/wire stuff around CSDb. |
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Submitted by Oswald on 6 December 2023
Mr Sarge, I'm just anal because I cant just accept that others have different opinions. But I'm getting better at it slowly.
No I havent commented on this matter on FB.
What started all this I just found it sad that a gfxer returns to the scene, and is instantly greeted with a piss on him compo.
I understand you, its like when I was debating realtime vs anim. |
User Comment
Submitted by Archmage on 6 December 2023
This competition is excellent satire on Hedning's part as always. The underlying sentiment to me, however, is one of sadness. To state that this is the end of an era for our little community is not an exaggeration - at least when it comes to the competitive aspect of pixeling. There just isn't any point anymore.
There are two problems:
1. So called "artists" demanding creative respect for work they have not done from the bottom up themselves. It's been an issue for a very long time with regards to wiring, but it is now taken to the extreme with AI.
2. A public which can't tell their ass from their elbow and are not able to spot the telltale signs of when a picture is an obvious wirejob. And if they do, they don't care because why so serious and it looks awesome! 10/10!
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The number of true artists in the scene can be counted on one hand. I do not claim to be one of these myself, but in the past I have tried to be. Those who have a comprehension of anatomy, composition, colour use and pixel techniques - and basically drawing skills - are now few and far between, but at the same time the number of pixel "artists" just keeps on growing.
The only way to save the graphics competitions at parties is to require proper work stages for all submissions. But that is cumbersome and rigid and I really don't see it happening. Well well, it was fun while it lasted!
edit: and yes, what The Sarge said. |
User Comment
Submitted by The Sarge on 6 December 2023
@oswald. Ive wondering why you are so emotionally involved in this. I see your comments here and in other threads on other releases and on Facebook too.
This debate is mostly about the pixel art. Of course everyone is entitled of their opinion but it seems you care a lot for this. And caring is of course good.
But understand our concerns from an art perspective where 10 minute converts are compared and often very much praised by viewers when they are so easily spotted to be just a simple convert of someone else work.
This compo I guess is a different take on the conversion-gate that's going on. It's good it gets attention and discussion. One part of art is also to provoke, to start a debate. But please understand what we are trying to say. Converting and AI does hurt us. And in the end everyone. It could be AI watching AI demos in the end. And nothing else left.
Is this depressing? Yes it is!
I would love to see hand made pixel art competing with hand pixeled art and quick converts of other peoples stuff just thrown down the drain and get the rating it deserves. And Im not talking about only compos where this can be somewhat moderated. But also generally, here, on Facebook, Instagram, etc.
We don't steal anyone else code and put it in a demo and credit yourself. If that would happen there would be an outcry too. And this is exactly the same. |
User Comment
Submitted by jab on 6 December 2023
| Direct AI and converter use is such a turn-off for me that I'm with the critics. I loved those other humor compos, as in those I could ignore the convertjobs - it was not the prevailing method. This is just "make up a pun and feed it to AI". Same crap you all over social media. I appreciate everyone's effort to make it fun but sorry, the entries so far just made me want take a break from csdb (until Lobo's pic). |
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Submitted by Oswald on 6 December 2023
| releasing hiding under aliases and bbs-es, indeed what a great compo. what are you afraid of? arent you having fun ? :) |
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Submitted by hedning on 6 December 2023
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Submitted by Electric on 6 December 2023
| @Oswald There are no unwritten rules - these 'rules' were there 30 years ago and before that as well. If I would have wired a pic when teen I would have been kicked out of Extend and tagged as a lamer for the years to come. I don't know if d-mage just converted something but he surely could also pixel a decent C64 image. Waiting for that eagerly. |
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Submitted by hedning on 6 December 2023
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Submitted by El Jefe on 6 December 2023
@hedning: i dont recall the first description of the compo, but this one reads equally unfunny.
Still wonder why people feel entitled to bash others, create compos for utter bullshit and motivate people to flood csdb with this kind of waste ... I guess its because its 2023. |
User Comment
Submitted by Magic on 6 December 2023
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Submitted by hedning on 5 December 2023
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Submitted by Peacemaker on 5 December 2023
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Submitted by hedning on 5 December 2023
Updated info, as people got offended by the last description (it's 2023). Also people seems to eagerly wanna add stuff:
OK, let's do this. As requested by many here on CSDb and also on C64.com on FB, and already started obviously.
Rules: Do whatever you like within the area of ninjas - ninjas has been a favourite motif since the 80s in the scene, so nothing is new there. What is new is AI, but we'll come to that.
Create whatever you like when it comes to ninjas based on what an AI can spit out and then convert that in whatever way you want. Some tiny handpixelling is allowed, but most of all this will be an experiment and spur further discussions about wiring, AI, originality and compo rules.
Artists decide yourselves if you want to take this dead seriously in a hipster kind of way or if you just want to have fun, both is absolutely alright, there are unlimited ways how to express yourselves.
Wiring is allowed (duh).
This is not about winning, but voters feel free to vote, anyway!
Compo ends: 24 December 2023, 23:59:59 CET. |
User Comment
Submitted by El Jefe on 5 December 2023
Definately not funny!
While I agree that converting gfx from photos or other platforms without being honest about the origin of the release is lame (what Flex said), I cant agree with just picking out a random release and start to make jokes or even start a discrediting compo about it.
There are way more guys in the scene, some even highly respected and in highly respected groups, that just do the same that is being criticized here.
Totally agree with Groepaz and also with Oswald!
Nothing to See Here
Dont waste your time and create something nice for this one:
X-Mas 2023 Compo |
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Submitted by chatGPZ on 4 December 2023
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Submitted by Oswald on 4 December 2023
| this is d-mage's first pic after 30 years, probably he is not familiar with the current unwritten rules in the scene, maybe more patience would have been better instead of making laughing stock of him in the form of a compo. |
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