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neilbaldwin
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 48 |
Plogue Chipsounds is released.
I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned this yet.
Plogue Chipsounds is a VSTi/AU plugin that emulates several different old systems (including NES/GB/C64/Atari 2600). It's been a couple of years in the making and they seem to have gone to great lengths to make it as accurate as possible.
http://www.plogue.com/?page_id=43
http://ploguechipsounds.blogspot.com/
I've just bought my copy and will be giving it a test soon.
I've been quite excited about this for some time but it raises interesting discussion I think:
- what does this mean for purists who think you should only use the original hardware?
- does it mark the death of the "chip sound", making it available to the masses with none of the limitations/work-arounds we are so fond of working with?
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Well Neil... I guess that there are still many chip musicians who are much more used to this chip style of doing things, so I'm not really scared that this VSTi will kill things for us.
Also, we still can't use VST music in demos/games on the c64.
:-)
But many non chip musicians will probably think:" YAY! now I can do great CHIP music like those old CHIP Legends!"
I think it's all about having a good idea.
So again... I'm not really touching cloth here! :-D |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
I dont seem to find the BUY button anywhere :( |
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neilbaldwin
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 48 |
Quote: I dont seem to find the BUY button anywhere :(
First link Jan, big red button to the right underneath the logo.
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Well, with a VST, its possible to add DSP in realtime, and the process of sampling the HardSID and loading it back into the tracker for processing, is over.
That is why i wanted to build a superSID synth, but everybody says that software is easier to make..
The famous C64 arpeggio is already being overused in some house music, but the industry's chip sounds are mostly based on stealing samples from sids, as happened with one of Jeff's tunes.
Quadrasid VST was around for a long time, but the user interface is horrible, i wasnt able to make anything really good with it..
However, the coming of the sidwave, that is already here, will continue to spread around, and you cannot stop it.
One fine day not too soon, a tune like JT in space, or another funky tune by Jeroen tel, written in 1988, has a very good chance to become a real world hit, in its original raw form.
When this happens, all the commercial bastards will embrace a VST like this, because they want the sound of the SID.
It's already happened. in the danish pro forum, they constantly ask how to make this and that sound on their advanced megasynth, but unlike the real sid coder, they have no idea how to make a basic sound, they use heaps of sample cds, LOL :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: First link Jan, big red button to the right underneath the logo.
Got it.
Now i can make that world hit, without sampling each voice individually from a real sid, and spending weeks on mixing and cutting it :) |
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neilbaldwin
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 48 |
Quote: Well Neil... I guess that there are still many chip musicians who are much more used to this chip style of doing things, so I'm not really scared that this VSTi will kill things for us.
Also, we still can't use VST music in demos/games on the c64.
:-)
But many non chip musicians will probably think:" YAY! now I can do great CHIP music like those old CHIP Legends!"
I think it's all about having a good idea.
So again... I'm not really touching cloth here! :-D
Jeff - I didn't mean death of the scene so much as the death of the current cultural obsession with "chip sound" in wider media.
Up until this point, getting that "chip sound" pretty much meant having to own the hardware or at the very least (if using an emulator, VICE for example) you still had to work within the limitations of the hardware (3 channels, using existing trackers/tools etc.). It's a set of restrictions that doesn't really exist in the realm of computer-based sequencers and software instruments. But this masochistic challenge is part of what we're all attracted to. We all nod in appreciation when someone manages to squeeze even more out of our beloved boxes. It's an appreciation that has to be explained to people who are not part of it. It would be like if someone figured out how to play a 7-note chord on a guitar. To guitarists it's astonishing, to anyone else.....*shrugs shoulders*.... :)
But now, with this software, any fool can drop a VST into their track and fill it full of C64 sounds without a care or an ounce of knowledge.
I don't want to sound like I'm down on the VST - I think it's an amazing technical achievement and the developers should be congratulated.
I just wonder what the knock-on effect will actually be.
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Seems to be great! Thanks for the info.
- Purists will probably keep using real C64 until the day all the chips die and keep on using an emulator I guess. That's the most probable future way to go. For me, VICE either provided that old feel and the flexibility of new times - so I use my old Beast for testing purposes only.
- No, most definietly it doesn't mark the end of the chip sound. For example, the long available (2002 or so) VSTi "QuadraSid" what I used all the way of my soon-to-be-released remix album is a brewtally powerful tool for creating C64 sounds that integrate seamlessly into modern DAWs and efficient workflow. Despite that, it did not mean an end of SIDding. I think, it probably even inspired some non-C64 people to check the real thing and go into SID music. Besides, releasing the full power of these tools, knowing well the secrets of SID is quite essential :)
Expanding the limitations of these 8-bit barriers is still hell of a challenge and that rocks the boats of many people. This instrument just seems to be a great tool for musicians who are using 8-bit sounds anyway. For example, I'm sure it will find a home in many SID remixers' sonic arsenal.
Regards,
NP |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
well, for me the charm is gone with such an emulation of chips. I still need the c64 environment :-)
Also we'd probably experience a lot of crap chip music, as too many people think they can do really nice and catchy music.
...maybe :) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting NeilJeff - I didn't mean death of the scene so much as the death of the current cultural obsession with "chip sound" in wider media.
Hallelujah, i'd much appreciate it if those buffoons would stop raping our sacred SID for their utterly horrific "mainstream media" abominations. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Joe: It's called "Plague Chipsounds" for a reason ;-)
But well, if it's any good, hopefully it means that people start using some decent pulse lead sounds in their VST music,
atleast THAT would be one step towards adding some expressions to melodies. Then they've just gotta use slide+vibrato a bit more interesting... Put it at the "right" spots and so. Having an instrument with portamento doesn't do the job of having decent slides in a melody. :-) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Neil:
>I don't want to sound like I'm down on the VST - I think >it's an amazing technical achievement and the developers >should be congratulated.
>
>I just wonder what the knock-on effect will actually be.
Good sounds will catch on and be used.
The effect will be, as i wrote, that average joe is more likely to accept a raw sid tune as is, because he gets accustomed to the sound and feel of it.
Over here in denmark, chip music made with gameboy, sid, etc. is becoming widely accepted. Its especially the minimal music style that attrackt people, because it usually has more musical creativity than a 50 track sample copy/paste job.
And boys and girls grow up with a gameboy, wii, and so on, and they know these styles and sounds, just as our generation grew up with the C64. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote:One fine day not too soon, a tune like JT in space, or another funky tune by Jeroen tel, written in 1988, has a very good chance to become a real world hit, in its original raw form.
"World hit" and "raw" don't gel too well.
There might be even more mainstream tunes using typical 8Bit sounds in the future but I don't see raw sid/nes/gameboy/whatever tunes entering the charts *ever*.
Also, I think it's a trend quickly passing by again. Does anybody remember the DnB hype back in the 90s? :) |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 460 |
Linus OTM. quite unfortunately. |
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
Really looking forward to see what will be made with this VST. I'm assuming that more hardcore things can be done than what was featured on the EP.
Nitro2k01 - the techy kind of musicians - tried to convert a song from LSDj (Gameboy), but it was one of his few that was even possible to do, he told me. Even if the soundchip is perfectly emulated doesn't mean that the specialities of software on the original machine can be done.
But I hope that Chipsounds will promote new uses of soundchips (trackers might be real good, but hey - there are other ways of making music too) but not shallow ones for that sake. |
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neilbaldwin
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 48 |
I had a good play around with it last night, mainly with the SID stuff.
You can do quite interesting wavetable stuff (not limited to just notes and waveforms but can also sequence MIDI control changes that are mapped to sound settings - needs more investigating) plus set the speed of the table independently of the song tempo (up to ridiculous speeds). Looks like it could be very useful.
PWM is there but it's not possible to directly set a minimum/maximum pulse value and so you have to balance the start value with the depth of the sweep to avoid sweeping to 0, which produces quite a horrible sound.
Filters - you can set type/resonance/cut-off but there are no modulators/envelopes. You can assign a MIDI control message to affect the cut-off but that's about it. You could also use the wavetable to sequence a list of filter parameters, like a manual filter sweep, but this is a bit crude. So, a lot of work to do for the developer in this area to make things interesting. Actually while on filters, they sound pretty crude at the moment and are very easily distorted (which some will find useful I guess, some not...). This is noted in the manual and improvements are apparently planned.
Away from strict chip emulation, some of the preset sounds that use combinations of chips and some of the more esoteric applications of parameters/controls are really fantastic. My feeling at the moment is that this is where it's strengths are. Personally I don't think that's a bad thing.
The Chimera preset made me chuckle. :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
I have 0 money so im not getting it before nov 1 :D
But you telling me that it dont comply to VST standard, so you can automate everything ? |
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neilbaldwin
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 48 |
Quote: I have 0 money so im not getting it before nov 1 :D
But you telling me that it dont comply to VST standard, so you can automate everything ?
It seems you can control pretty much all the parameters via dedicated MIDI controller number assignments so......probably :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Neil, the VST standard includes, that you can control ALL. it dont use midi CC, but you can hook a midi CC to a function in automation.
The renoise tracker has direct automation on any vst, you just open automation, and assign a vst param to a command in the tracker, or to a painted envelope.
You can automate the vst with commands, painted envelopes, oscillators - anything that generates data, that is sent to the chosen vst param.
its a lot more circumstancial in f.ex sonar. but it works same way. |
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neilbaldwin
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 48 |
I use Logic Jan which is not VST based.
I do have Renoise though - I'll give it a try (though I'm not that familiar with it!)
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
If you need help with renoise, fire an email. |
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FATFrost
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 211 |
use buzz as a host it's amazing and free! |
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1BM
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 48 |
Quote: use buzz as a host it's amazing and free!
and it never crashes. |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 346 |
Neil, when did mac stop using the vst format then? it's been a long while since I used a mac, I'm surprised to hear that.
the thing about it , a lot of the sid chip or general chip sound things are pc only and weren't ported.. odo synth , errm unknown64 and as someone mentioned the re:fx one.
there has been a few Nintendo NES ones etc also, and an AY one which is around
http://www.preromanbritain.com/ymvst/
for example.
I have a few commerical synths I have, which have c64 inspired sounds, dreamsynth and syleth1 , but I don't think these things are a 100% match for the real thing.. maybe it's like older synths, as the chip heats up a bit the characteristic of the sound changes.hhmm |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote: and it never crashes.
LOL LOL LOL |
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FATFrost
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 211 |
erm yeah buzz crashes but so does my c64....
you can use vst and dx plugins and it has full trackers with effects. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
I know Buzz by heart and it's great and all, don't get me wrong. But I'd never dare to call it stable :) But then again I am not up to date regarding latest native machines, DX and VST adaptors. I vividly remember it to crash like hell on a lot of systems. We had to save our files every 5 minutes and never dared to use it for live gigs. |
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neilbaldwin
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 48 |
Quote: Neil, when did mac stop using the vst format then? it's been a long while since I used a mac, I'm surprised to hear that.
the thing about it , a lot of the sid chip or general chip sound things are pc only and weren't ported.. odo synth , errm unknown64 and as someone mentioned the re:fx one.
there has been a few Nintendo NES ones etc also, and an AY one which is around
http://www.preromanbritain.com/ymvst/
for example.
I have a few commerical synths I have, which have c64 inspired sounds, dreamsynth and syleth1 , but I don't think these things are a 100% match for the real thing.. maybe it's like older synths, as the chip heats up a bit the characteristic of the sound changes.hhmm
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that Mac's had stopped using VSTs.
It's just that I use Logic and it's native plugin/instrument format is AU. You can "wrap" a VST inside an AU plugin and use it that way.
You can, of course, also use a sequencer that uses VSTs natively such as Cubase etc. on Macs too.
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
We've run off topic now :D |
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FATFrost
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 211 |
hehehe, live gigs? meh... i have no shows lined up, but on another note Buzz is being re-coded again by Jeskola and isn't too bad now, but i do get your p0int Linus. ;) i just hate to agree with anyone. ;) |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 509 |
Hey, looking for someone who dared to do live gigs with buzz? Here I am ;)
If this digression is still of any interest to anyone, I used to do my _experimental/idm_ (and I stress that!) live-acts with buzz (under 'kalma' alias), it was quite fun. Of course did it only on 100% tested files, some years ago on OLD buzz exec, it worked quite ok. Surely, most problematic were switching between bmx'es (that what the other laptop with some pad sounds is usually for, you know ;D).
I experienced one spectacular crash, which caused the buzz to freeze playing one 2s loop - fortunatelly, since this was an idm live-act, the audience didn't notice, heheh.
Ancient times. Nowadays stability is key, so I use the mighty Ableton Live for all my club acts :) Works like a charm. Yet new buzz is still my main tool for composing/producing. |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
i played live using buzz a number of times before switching to using the c64 instead. it wasn't exactly fun due to the known random crashes wich consist of mainly white noise that's being thrown right at the audience.
i stopped using buzz altogether now, as renoise seems to be the best thing on pc for me. =) |
